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editing now into a few subtopics...
[18.13:31 h] Michael Maranda: fyi, we also can flesh out items that dont make it into agenda for GKT here. http://etherpad.openstewardship.net/cotw-gkt
[18.16:56 h] Chris Watkins: I really want us to do a video for Appropedia, partly for funding, but also for sharing the vision.
[18.19:51 h] Michael Maranda: I'd like to see a coordinated communication strategy emerge -- across our different efforts -- including rationalization of channels/touchpoints/spaces --
[19.16:40 h] fabio-barone: That has also been one of my realisations lately - let's work with what we have
[19.17:10 h] fabio-barone: so I also believe App deserves attention for GKT
[19.17:37 h] fabio-barone: however, one of my aspects I am interested in is finally "How can people find information"?
[19.19:24 h] fabio-barone: There are other guys doing great stuff, like Marcin etc.
[19.19:48 h] fabio-barone: some topics are marginally covered in App (like algae; correct me if I am wrong Chris)
[19.20:48 h] fabio-barone: Maybe structuring data so that it can be machine-read and transfered is a suggestion
[19.21:16 h] fabio-barone: so that people can concentrate on what they are doing best
[19.25:21 h] Chris Watkins: Fabio - just to answer one part, re "some topics are marginally covered in App"
[19.25:34 h] Chris Watkins: certainly, and many more are not covered at all
[19.26:04 h] Chris Watkins: but it can be thought of as a platform
[19.26:34 h] Chris Watkins: so, actually it is a great platform for content on algae as biofuel, and as carbon capture
[19.26:44 h] fabio-barone: great
[19.27:18 h] Chris Watkins: and if that information is not there now, it is only because that initiative hasn't been started yet - and if there is an algae enthusiast/expert here, it can be started now :-)
[19.27:27 h] fabio-barone: right
[19.28:01 h] fabio-barone: First of all, congrats for your fantastic work on App Chris, I mean, I am impressed
[19.28:30 h] Chris Watkins: thanks - it's a great team, and a great community
[19.29:06 h] fabio-barone: It's a wiki yes, so all contributors are included, but I assume you were the guys kicking it up, right?
... [19.30:58 h] Chris Watkins: Actually Lonny started it - I came on board quite soon after, and then Curt. The three of us have worked closely since.
[19.31:54 h] Chris Watkins: I do more social media stuff, so people sometimes think I'm the main guy. Lonny does more tech stuff, which gets little attention, but it's a lot of work. Also a great facilitator.
[19.33:28 h] Chris Watkins: And Prof Joshua Pearce deserves a mention - he has been consistently using Appropedia with his students. So they create pages for their assignments.
[19.34:03 h] Chris Watkins: This inspires and encourages them, knowing that they are creating work for this green knowledge trust (by another name). It is a useful tool for teachers, and Joshua is one of several teachers pioneering this.
[19.34:11 h] fabio-barone: Right. Please extend my congrats then :D
[19.34:24 h] Chris Watkins: and the result is a growing body of knowledge.
[19.34:28 h] fabio-barone: sure
[19.34:30 h] Chris Watkins: thank you, will do
[19.35:03 h] fabio-barone: now in the context of COTW, I think we'll have to address issues like inclusion
[19.35:09 h] fabio-barone: Will the GKT be just one place?
[19.35:13 h] fabio-barone: I don't think so
[19.35:17 h] fabio-barone: But it could start as one
[19.35:19 h] fabio-barone: and evolve
[19.35:26 h] fabio-barone: Because we also have to think about other issues
[19.35:32 h] fabio-barone: What about multi-language?
... [19.37:16 h] Chris Watkins: there is certainly a model for that with Wikipedia - just using the subdomains, so we might have en.appropedia.org, it.appropedia.org, zh.appropedia.org, etc
[19.39:02 h] fabio-barone: we could also think of 'centers of excellence' in lack of better terminology
[19.39:14 h] fabio-barone: so appropedia could be a center of excellence for appropriate technology
[19.39:40 h] Chris Watkins: fabio: interesting
[19.39:57 h] fabio-barone: while there is this project about a permaculture social network
[19.40:16 h] Wael Al Saad: appropedia stuff is urgent needed in "development countries", countries should hav elearned from the industrial age
[19.40:28 h] fabio-barone: yep agreed
[19.40:51 h] Wael Al Saad: have you every ask for funds for translation in target languages?
[19.41:00 h] Wael Al Saad: from UNDP, USAID, ..
[19.41:29 h] fabio-barone: http://permaculture.org.au/2010/09/25/worldwide-permaculture-network-teaser/
[19.42:41 h] Chris Watkins: Wael, not yet... we have had our hands full, very small team managing the project. would love help with identifying where and how to ask
[19.45:43 h] Wael Al Saad: so adding to fabio quation ""How can people find information"? .. "how to bring the information to the places they are nedded"
[19.47:10 h] fabio-barone: This is a huge item and I think one could write a phd
[19.47:32 h] fabio-barone: but naively I look at it somethink like a google
[19.47:42 h] fabio-barone: I enter things and I get relevant response
[19.48:48 h] Wael Al Saad: Come and see with which infromation people are developing their lives in developing countires.
[19.48:53 h] Chris Watkins: Google is a good starting point. Then we think about: What do we want to add to that?
[19.49:02 h] Wael Al Saad: They are looking in the internet for what is "Normal"
[19.49:35 h] fabio-barone: Wael, I am not sure I understand what you mean, can you repeat?
[19.50:32 h] Wael Al Saad: I am saying that people do not know the better choices exists.
[19.51:00 h] fabio-barone: ah, I get it, thanks
[19.52:42 h] Wael Al Saad: meta-design to transform development path, taking in consideration "beyond development" is somthing we have to look after
[19.52:53 h] fabio-barone: right
[19.53:54 h] fabio-barone: what about for example search engines where you enter (as a totally made up example) location, soil type, rain amount and get for example a list of nitrogen fixers or something like that (I think something like this already exists, but is this not the type of questions people would like to find answers for?)
[19.54:51 h] Wael Al Saad: in my idea about establishing a network of modular open source eco-villages for open "organic" economy, i have tried to answer many of these question ..
[19.55:49 h] Wael Al Saad: Fabio, imagine we have green-google
[19.55:56 h] fabio-barone: right
[19.56:07 h] Chris Watkins: fabio: semantic wiki functions are one way to offer this kind of search (the only way that I know).
[19.56:18 h] Wael Al Saad: it wont help when the people in planing departments are comfortable to do what they are used to
[19.56:46 h] Chris Watkins: We want to have Semantic MediaWiki on Appropedia, but have been moving slowly, through lack of resources, plus wanting to do it properly.
[19.57:03 h] fabio-barone: Chris: I agree
[19.57:24 h] fabio-barone: and for semantic concepts to work - there needs to be some standardization of data
[19.57:57 h] Wael Al Saad: local development is often covered with local cultural standarts .. the questions remains, how we can integrate "good" global experience in within it.
[19.58:03 h] fabio-barone: When data is standardized, it's easier to exchange and mash-ups can be created
[19.58:33 h] Chris Watkins: fabio - re standardization, I think this is one strength of a large wiki. relying on many small, poorly maintained or semi-maintained wikis leads to many problems, like this one.
[19.58:42 h] Chris Watkins: just like this problem.
[19.59:06 h] fabio-barone: but one large wiki suffers the problem of centralization
[19.59:14 h] fabio-barone: single-point-of-failure
[19.59:14 h] Chris Watkins: however, when wikis do work together and have some standards, it should be possible to develop a set of extensions to let them share semantic data
[19.59:17 h] fabio-barone: not really P2P
[19.59:25 h] fabio-barone: exactly
[19.59:51 h] Chris Watkins: and/or develop a search engine to search by the meta data of several sites.
[19.59:57 h] fabio-barone: right
[20.00:27 h] fabio-barone: Wael: that's why I am maintaining that people should create content where they need it
[20.00:54 h] fabio-barone: So for example folks can create local customizations of some Appropedia item
[20.01:11 h] fabio-barone: either on appropedia itself or on a clone, child, etc.
[20.01:11 h] Chris Watkins: fabio: i don't completely agree re the problem of centralization. If Wikipedia died (e.g. all the servers and the HQ destroyed in an earthquake) how long before it would be resurrected?
[20.01:16 h] Chris Watkins: hours
[20.01:27 h] fabio-barone: Chris: what do you think of that (re: local customizations etc.)
[20.02:24 h] fabio-barone: I don't know an answer to if Wikipedia died...
[20.02:53 h] Chris Watkins: I'm sure many people have copies of the Wikipedia site dumps
[20.03:31 h] Chris Watkins: Appropedia also has a backup system, and regular dumps - http://www.appropedia.org/Appropedia:Current_dump
[20.03:39 h] fabio-barone: cool
[20.04:09 h] Chris Watkins: a wiki geek with a server can set up a wiki in minutes - certainly less than 30 minutes, I'm pretty sure.
[20.04:18 h] fabio-barone: right
[20.05:22 h] Chris Watkins: we don't want that to happen (still lots of issues with that) but it reduces the concern about point of failure, because the most important data can be on many people's hard drive, including yours if you want.
[20.06:03 h] fabio-barone: ok
[20.06:24 h] Chris Watkins: re local customizations - in what sense, Wael?
[20.07:00 h] Chris Watkins: "where they need it" - where on the internet? everywhere is accessible online :-)
[20.07:04 h] Chris Watkins: Or where in the world?
[20.08:09 h] Chris Watkins: Definitely there needs to be pages on a technique or technology for all relevant applications. different climate, soil type, culture, economy, whatever factors are relevant.
[20.10:20 h] Wael Al Saad: [8:06:24 PM] Chris Watkins: local customizations
<<< a live
[20.11:16 h] Wael Al Saad: yeh localized tool kit
[20.12:54 h] Wael Al Saad: and to pring as much as many of these appropiciate practices in one place is the model need to be presented as alternative solution to ordinary development.
[20.15:38 h] Chris Watkins: yes, well put!
[20.16:32 h] Chris Watkins: in many things I favor decentralizations, but in open source projects, it is generally the *ability* to fork which is important, as long as it is done rarely.
[20.16:48 h] Wael Al Saad: again this is what the idea of eco-ivllage for organic economy is about. To use the box people are holding within as transofrmation vehichle
[20.16:58 h] Chris Watkins: where possible, best to join forces as closely as possible
[20.17:50 h] Wael Al Saad: *economy" and the market are the real government
[20.20:00 h] Chris Watkins: Wael, I only partly follow you.
[20.24:33 h] Wael Al Saad: i am multi-tasking as well .. kids, emails, lunch, skype .. will leave you soon.
[20.24:47 h] Chris Watkins: I understand
[20.24:50 h] Wael Al Saad: or you mean sometin is not clear
[20.25:12 h] Chris Watkins: "To use the box people are holding within as transofrmation vehichle"
[20.25:29 h] Chris Watkins: that isn't clear to me
[20.25:33 h] Wael Al Saad: this is important massage
[20.25:35 h] Wael Al Saad: let me try
[20.26:09 h] Wael Al Saad: people mostly prisonered in the question how to get money for livlihood
[20.26:25 h] Wael Al Saad: awarness is mostly about that
[20.27:02 h] Wael Al Saad: the idea is to offer them new space where they can act different econmy
[20.27:40 h] Wael Al Saad: by offering them new "healing jobs" to renivate earth and generate humanity
[20.28:15 h] Chris Watkins: ah, ok. very good.
[20.28:43 h] Wael Al Saad: new healing globalization .. the movement should create new model for economy
[20.29:15 h] Wael Al Saad: invest in developing countires
[20.29:38 h] Wael Al Saad: so if we desing the modular eco-village it can be seeded every where
[20.30:31 h] Pamela: Hi all - I'm agreeing with much that Wael is saying - I guess because of our overlpapping "global villages" connection
[20.30:42 h] Wael Al Saad: like international efforts are able to build very complex thing like ISS .. the movement should build a model which can be the seed for holistic healing economy
[20.31:59 h] Chris Watkins: ok, and you find Appropedia useful because... it can provide the building blocks for the larger model?
[20.32:06 h] Chris Watkins: or models
[20.33:15 h] Wael Al Saad: sure
[20.34:10 h] Wael Al Saad: there so many resources , academic efforts, .. tones of them .. millions know how the furture looks like, meanwhile millions are dieing, sturving, heart every day
[20.34:44 h] Chris Watkins: yes!
[20.35:00 h] Wael Al Saad: I thought the idea of the modular eco-village as space for new-global economy can be a key-conept
[20.35:03 h] Chris Watkins: we must harness that knowledge, those resources
[20.35:34 h] Chris Watkins: ok - a little like the Transition Towns, but more concrete, perhaps?
[20.35:40 h] Chris Watkins: more specific?
[20.39:07 h] Wael Al Saad: like MacDonalds has modular economic solution, the global movement can design modular space/enviornement , the natural-building architecture based eco-village with all kits,
[20.39:18 h] Wael Al Saad: all the practices around
[20.39:31 h] Chris Watkins: interesting analogy. very compelling.
[20.40:24 h] Wael Al Saad: no one took the idea seriously .. I am taking about it ssense two years
[20.40:27 h] Chris Watkins: those who seek only financial success can use repetition of their successful practices to compound their success. We need to do this, for more so.
[20.40:46 h] Chris Watkins: ok, I think I'm just understanding you now.
[20.42:34 h] Wael Al Saad: thanks to take the time to follow me
[20.43:06 h] Pamela: Wael ref - I thought the idea of the modular eco-village as space for new-global economy can be a key-conept - this is a greata concept
[20.43:49 h] Wael Al Saad: till now the movement is incompetent to put/stich such a thing together
[20.44:05 h] Wael Al Saad: somethign we co-create
[20.45:20 h] Wael Al Saad: for me it look obvious that, that conept can be a key of many existing intentions to change the world ..
[20.46:37 h] Wael Al Saad: it will bring them together
[20.46:39 h] fabio-barone: Wael, would you agree that is the key about customization we talked before: The modular eco-village could be customizable as solutions can't be always transfered from place to place one-to-one
[20.47:25 h] Wael Al Saad: sure not ..
[20.47:55 h] Wael Al Saad: i like to speak about tailering existing complex model according to local needs
[20.48:02 h] fabio-barone: right
[20.48:28 h] fabio-barone: I see this the logical evolution of the open source concept on Appropedia- and other appropriate technology items:
[20.48:37 h] fabio-barone: items can be forked and adapted to local needs
[20.48:40 h] Wael Al Saad: in each space there is different raw-material to build it for example .. difern architecture indegenious types
[20.48:47 h] Chris Watkins: Wael: just to be clear in my mind - how is this different from Transition Towns?
[20.48:48 h] fabio-barone: EXACTLY!
[20.48:56 h] Wael Al Saad: then it comes to which parctices ..
[20.49:03 h] Wael Al Saad: the custimiasation is very rich
[20.49:24 h] fabio-barone: totally agree
[20.49:44 h] Chris Watkins: so this is a bit like the many open source software packages that come together to make a Linux distribution
[20.50:15 h] Wael Al Saad: from what I know, transiton towns as not developing an architecture
[20.50:19 h] fabio-barone: Chris: yes, and also the freedom to assemble new distros
[20.50:26 h] fabio-barone: depending on your needs
[20.50:50 h] fabio-barone: Chris: I have lived in Totnes for a year, please allow me to try putting out where I see the difference
[20.51:21 h] fabio-barone: Transition Town Totnes is a great initiative from folks in the DEVELOPED world who are tired of waiting for something to happen
[20.51:35 h] fabio-barone: and took the initiative to try to build up the world they like to see
[20.52:06 h] fabio-barone: However, what Pamela and Wael I think are talking about, is leap-frogging traditional environments to the current times
[20.53:08 h] Chris Watkins: ah, ok.
[20.53:25 h] Wael Al Saad: yeh .. condensate know appropeciate projects in one model, in one open architecture
[20.53:25 h] Chris Watkins: so I'm sure that we would have the support of the TT people as well.
[20.53:39 h] fabio-barone: Very well possible - have connections there (Rob Hopkins et al)
[20.53:43 h] Chris Watkins: Fabio, great to hear about your connection to Totnes - must have been interesting.
[20.53:49 h] Chris Watkins: cool
[20.53:49 h] fabio-barone: It was!
[20.53:59 h] Chris Watkins: have had some communication with Rob Hopkins also.
[20.54:06 h] fabio-barone: (y)
[20.54:24 h] Chris Watkins: ok, this is great stuff.
[20.54:50 h] Chris Watkins: Wael, are we making your children go hungry because we ask too many questions? ;-)
[20.54:57 h] Wael Al Saad: fabio .. and all feel free to present the idea
[20.55:15 h] Pamela: Transition Town Totnes connection - very intersting ;-)
[20.55:21 h] Wael Al Saad: they ate .. I am the hungry one now
[20.55:33 h] Chris Watkins: haha, well...
[20.55:36 h] fabio-barone: hehe
[20.55:37 h] Pamela: ref However, what Pamela and Wael I think are talking about, is leap-frogging traditional environments to the current times - this is what I think
[20.55:37 h] Chris Watkins: quick, next steps
[20.56:10 h] Chris Watkins: I'd love us to have a blog post on CoalitionBlog.org based on this conversation - maybe an edited extract
[20.56:30 h] Pamela: I mentioned it to MM during the video http://www.dadamac.net/search/node/street%20lights
[20.56:35 h] Chris Watkins: maybe explore the leapfrogging idea more.
[20.57:14 h] Wael Al Saad: Chris, I canged the title i used that time here
[20.57:15 h] Wael Al Saad: http://twitpic.com/hkyuf
[20.57:32 h] Wael Al Saad: http://www.wiserearth.org/resource/view/f529bcd0176bb10a8898c78188534d71
[20.58:37 h] Wael Al Saad: The Green Cell, is now the open eco-village for "organic" economy
[20.59:24 h] fabio-barone: Chris, can anyone blog on coalitionblog.org?
[21.00:24 h] Chris Watkins: I think Tim & Michael are the "custodians" of the blog... pretty open I imagine.
[21.00:25 h] Wael Al Saad: I would love to cover a session speaking about the concept on 14th
[21.00:53 h] Chris Watkins: Pamela - is that the right link? I get a search results page.
[21.01:13 h] Pamela: oops -
[21.01:31 h] Chris Watkins: Wael, I think it's an excellent illustration of what the COTW model can help to achieve.
[21.01:38 h] Pamela: http://www.dadamac.net/blog/20091015/pam-we-want-street-lights
[21.03:05 h] fabio-barone: Pamela, your blog entry is fantastic
[21.03:37 h] Pamela: Thank you fabio
[21.03:54 h] Pamela: wael - I love your illustration - http://twitpic.com/hkyuf - I would love you and John Dada to talk it through ref his hopes and vision for Attachab eco-village
[21.03:55 h] Wael Al Saad: Chris .. if you can imagine, the three modules presented in the COTW are already having a practical project
[21.04:03 h] fabio-barone: I have been travelling to the 3rd world thinking I'd find paradise
[21.04:05 h] Chris Watkins: Pamela, I was about to say the same - it's wonderful
[21.04:18 h] fabio-barone: only to learn that they want what we have
[21.04:30 h] Pamela: http://www.dadamac.net/projects/ecology-and-appropriate-technology/attachab
[21.04:31 h] Chris Watkins: we need an entry on Leapfrogging for Appropedia - Pamela, are you interested in creating it? :-)
[21.04:32 h] fabio-barone: "No. You want street lights - but not like I have!"
[21.04:38 h] fabio-barone: that's just so nice
[21.05:34 h] Pamela: There is one street light in Bayan Loco - where Fantsuam Foundation is situated - it is outside FF and is solar powered
[21.05:56 h] Chris Watkins: Wael: practical project, meaning your eco-village model?
[21.06:04 h] Wael Al Saad: yes.
[21.06:21 h] Wael Al Saad: a network of eco-villages
[21.06:54 h] Wael Al Saad: can be seeded as "estates" by existing villages to offer new space for work
[21.07:40 h] Chris Watkins: ok - so that is an economic model as well as a technological one.
[21.07:57 h] Wael Al Saad: it is healing organ, which will revive the indegenious village structure
[21.08:11 h] Pamela: When I was there one evening i saw a woman taking the opportunity to sit her daughter down under the street light so Mum could braid her hair
[21.08:15 h] Wael Al Saad: I see it as holistic
[21.08:41 h] Pamela: Holistic si so important
[21.08:57 h] Wael Al Saad: cuz arts, culture, indegnious sofistacation, permaculture, ..
[21.09:28 h] Wael Al Saad: all are interconnected
[21.09:33 h] Pamela: big top down projects focus on one thing - but families and communites are concerned with everything from birth to death
[21.09:52 h] Pamela: yes - all are interconnected
[21.09:57 h] Chris Watkins: my suggestion is that a green knowledge trust should be mostly agnostic on some things such as economics, or anything religious... but not holding back from talking about when it's relevant, and objectively covering it in a "neutral point of view" way.
[21.10:02 h] Chris Watkins: (sorry, bit of a side track)
[21.10:20 h] fabio-barone: nope Chris, I think that was a very apt remark
[21.10:41 h] fabio-barone: It's about putting out stuff that works
[21.10:47 h] fabio-barone: that feeds and nourishes us
[21.11:19 h] fabio-barone: that can provide shelter and health
[21.11:38 h] Wael Al Saad: holistic healing economy is new glasses to see reality and interconnectedness
[21.11:52 h] Wael Al Saad: new way to sense life
[21.12:43 h] Pamela: Yes - new paradigm - Wael have you written contibution to the Future We Deserve?
[21.12:52 h] Wael Al Saad: when people are trained to know which effect is caused by any practice they do the enviornement I am desciribing they are released form the box ..
[21.13:10 h] Pamela: Vinay has extended the deadline
[21.13:17 h] Wael Al Saad: no i have not
[21.13:30 h] fabio-barone: Oh great, maybe I'll make it to a chapter too
[21.13:31 h] Wael Al Saad: I am totally not goodin writing
[21.13:48 h] Wael Al Saad: I love conversation .. like this. I an not bring every ting in one shot
[21.14:59 h] Pamela: http://thefuturewedeserve.com/
[21.15:07 h] fabio-barone: If I can make it to a chapter, I could try to put in some views of yours Wael...Your thinking anyway is very much aligned with mine
[21.15:12 h] Pamela: but you are great at diagarms
[21.15:19 h] fabio-barone: ^ agreed
[21.15:29 h] Wael Al Saad: i think so as well Fabio ..
[21.15:40 h] Wael Al Saad: I feed we are very well connected ..
[21.15:41 h] fabio-barone: you know work of Jeff on Rhizomes?
[21.15:48 h] Wael Al Saad: bro
[21.15:50 h] fabio-barone: Jeff Vail
[21.15:57 h] fabio-barone: bro :)
[21.16:01 h] Wael Al Saad: :)
[21.16:06 h] Pamela: please try to get your ideas in there
[21.16:10 h] fabio-barone: ok
[21.16:20 h] Pamela: Chris and I have had a go
[21.16:36 h] fabio-barone: yes, I have seen it (but not read your chapters yet)
[21.16:48 h] Pamela: it woudl be great to get more input form this group
[21.17:02 h] Wael Al Saad: I have to go .. I will be glad if any of you take parts of me in you
[21.17:09 h] Jason Smithson: jeeze you people are chatty
[21.17:16 h] Wael Al Saad: we carry each other
[21.17:28 h] fabio-barone: Hi Jason - good or bad?
[21.18:00 h] Wael Al Saad: in community - by for now
[21.18:01 h] Chris Watkins: hi Jason - we've solved the world's problems while you were gone.
[21.18:06 h] Jason Smithson: only bad in that skype is a poor way to capture data
[21.18:15 h] fabio-barone: yes, I was just thinking the same actually
[21.18:22 h] Jason Smithson: Chris, I just spent a half hour catching up, you haven't solved that much :P
[21.18:24 h] fabio-barone: IRC is better at this (?)
[21.18:43 h] Chris Watkins: Jason: especially if you drop out of a group chat, and *then* learn that chat history doesn't work in that context.
[21.18:51 h] Jason Smithson: [2010.10.20 14:37:35] Michael Maranda: how about integration of realtime chat into wagn-repo- let's say from an IRC channel (or several), and import via bots? there would be formatted but essentially unedited content, then there would be content extracted for long term use
[21.19:04 h] Jason Smithson: I don't think any kind of automated ephemeral to durable import is a good idea
[21.19:04 h] fabio-barone: yes, like that
[21.19:14 h] Jason Smithson: the information needs to be refactored to be of use
[21.19:20 h] fabio-barone: even better
[21.19:26 h] fabio-barone: that is what I don't like on video streams
[21.19:35 h] fabio-barone: it's not "condensable"
[21.19:37 h] fabio-barone: (yet)
[21.19:38 h] Jason Smithson: and someone else used the word "durable" in contrast to "ephemeral" and I like it and am running with it
[21.19:47 h] Jason Smithson: not true, video can be edited in the extreme
[21.19:54 h] Chris Watkins: fabio: +1 re video. And can't skim-read :-)
[21.20:03 h] fabio-barone: right
[21.20:09 h] fabio-barone: but Jason is spot-on
[21.20:12 h] Jason Smithson: as far as capturing chat, I'm heavily biased towards IRC and we have irc to web logging setup and being tested right now
[21.20:17 h] fabio-barone: you can edit video
[21.20:24 h] Jason Smithson: also going to setup web based IRC clients as needed for those not IRC saavy
[21.20:25 h] fabio-barone: making it a 'real weapon' ;)
[21.20:34 h] Jason Smithson: I think Skype makes sense for those who are only comfortable here, and for where we don't need logging
[21.20:37 h] Chris Watkins: I need to go soon (2:20am here) so, next steps:
[21.20:41 h] Jason Smithson: explicity want it to be private
[21.20:50 h] Jason Smithson: [11:41:18] Suresh Fernando: It would be good if you could get a short list together of the competion so that we can all check it out and conclude that App is the way to go
[21.21:03 h] Jason Smithson: I've done some work to that end as part of web optimization Suresh, I'll see what I can send your way
[21.21:15 h] Jason Smithson: part of what I'd be doing for COTW anyway is to make another survey of the landscape
[21.21:22 h] Jason Smithson: [13:56:13] Chris Watkins: fabio: semantic wiki functions are one way to offer this kind of search (the only way that I know).
[21.21:32 h] Chris Watkins: how about we submit an edited extract of the above conversation as a suggested blog for the CoalitionBlog, and then edit it a little more for TheFWD?
[21.21:38 h] Jason Smithson: I hold little hope semantic wiki is going to be likely within even the GKT space any time soon
[21.21:44 h] fabio-barone: Chris: excellent proposal
[21.21:48 h] Chris Watkins: we can jointly edit on the wiki.
[21.22:06 h] Jason Smithson: [fabio: removed link to google cse, spam filter was hitting] is far more useful and likely
[21.22:13 h] Jason Smithson: With Google Custom Search, you can harness the power of Google to create a customized search experience for your own website.
[21.22:19 h] Jason Smithson: "Include one or more websites, or specific webpages"
[21.22:19 h] fabio-barone: Jason: agreed, but the concept conveys what we thought would be useful
[21.22:45 h] Jason Smithson: and frankly I'd lean towards a Google Mini if we ever outgrew that, but that's the only thing that is going to scale fast enough given our resources
[21.23:04 h] Chris Watkins: Wael, Fabio, Pamela... we can edit here if you like:
[21.23:04 h] Chris Watkins: http://www.appropedia.org/User:Chriswaterguy/model_ecovillages
[21.23:21 h] fabio-barone: Chris: thanks
[21.23:30 h] Jason Smithson: Michael: since you've got something broadcasting in shoutcast format, we can relay that off my servers, and if your broadcasting side can't do the multicast, we can on that side
[21.23:49 h] Jason Smithson: that is, icecast can be configured to, at the very least, offer multiple audio streams from a single input source
[21.24:01 h] Jason Smithson: so you could do 128kbit and 56kbit and even 32kbit to keep it really accessible
[21.24:02 h] fabio-barone: Jason: do you have experience with icecast?
[21.24:15 h] Jason Smithson: fabio yes quite a bit
[21.24:19 h] fabio-barone: cool!
[21.24:35 h] Jason Smithson: better still there is a project called freecast that will take an icecast feed and use a java client to redistribute p2p
[21.24:51 h] fabio-barone: (y)
[21.24:53 h] Jason Smithson: so the more we can push people towards that solution, for those it works for, the further we can offload the bandwidth requirements
[21.25:02 h] Chris Watkins: I'd missed Suresh's comment re the "competetion" but I did a study on this for a Dutch NGO called Akvo: http://www.appropedia.org/Green_wikis_and_development_wikis
[21.25:26 h] Jason Smithson: so as long as we can get any feed we use into shoutcast/icecast I can do some (most?) of the heavy lifting from there
[21.25:38 h] Jason Smithson: I can do a couple hundred gb a month anyway, which should get us started
[21.26:03 h] fabio-barone: (Jason: you lost me now, but it reads great)
[21.26:06 h] Jason Smithson: likewise if we want to host or archive large amounts of data I suggest using one of the torrentbits style media managers, or a similar project, to offload that bandwidth
[21.26:25 h] Jason Smithson: fabio let's say I was going to broadcast, I'm limited to the upstream on my DSL
[21.26:40 h] fabio-barone: right
[21.26:42 h] Jason Smithson: Michael found a service, I forget the name, but it lets him easily broadcast to their page, and then serve that out as a shoutcast
[21.26:59 h] Jason Smithson: at such point that any stream can be turned into a shoutcast stream, I can relay it from there
[21.27:07 h] fabio-barone: goalbit?
[21.27:13 h] Chris Watkins: Jason: I'm skeptical about the value of Google for our needs (we ran Google as our search engine for a while - we didn't like it)
[21.27:14 h] Jason Smithson: up to a couple hundred gb a month
[21.27:58 h] Jason Smithson: then from there we can also use freecast for nearly unlimited peer to peer redisitribution of that same stream, for anyone who can run the java client
[21.28:10 h] Jason Smithson: Chris, I'm skeptical about the availability of any other solution but glad to be wrong
[21.28:13 h] Pamela: Ref - http://www.appropedia.org/User:Chriswaterguy/model_ecovillages - i will note the link - but confess I don't see myself doing anything there yet - in fact shouldn't be here now. I've started to get in habit of dropping in when I'm having a break
[21.28:16 h] Jason Smithson: were you using CSE?
[21.28:26 h] Chris Watkins: and the Semantic thing - there are so many people keen to see this happen, I'm not ready to give up too quickly. likely to need a wad of funding though.
[21.28:47 h] Jason Smithson: a lot of people are keen on hydrogen too, and that is about as likely to be useful
[21.29:10 h] Chris Watkins: Jason: ah, you're talking multi-site... you're probably right re Google then (blame the time of night, sorry)
[21.29:31 h] Jason Smithson: google site search is so so, google CSE is much better, even for only one site
[21.29:43 h] Jason Smithson: http://www.google.com/sitesearch/ vs [fabio: removed link to google CSE, spam filter hitting]
[21.30:07 h] Jason Smithson: and CSE yes, you can search an entire network of sites, maybe a good candidate for a cotw.cc search box
[21.31:57 h] Jason Smithson: and street lights suck for the record, unless they at least actually point at the ground
[21.35:05 h] Jason Smithson: so that's all I've got from my scroll back catching up... I've got instsalling a web based IRC client on the list to help people get there and get that captured to web
[21.35:40 h] Jason Smithson: hope to test at least the icecast relay soon, but that's pretty straightforward off the shelf stuff I got to work all by myself 10+ years ago, so pretty certain can do it again
[21.36:24 h] Jason Smithson: also working on capturing blog/twitter/wiki rss to IRC, which will then go onto the web... so just about everything ephemeral in those locations will be archived in some manner for refactoring and reference
[21.36:47 h] Jason Smithson: oh, and if I failed to mention it above, I think refactoring is needed to get from ephemeral data to durable data, and that is only ever going to be done by hand
[21.37:33 h] Jason Smithson: so the important thing is defining a process for doing that, not seeking a tech fix that doesn't exist because it's a people problem... crowdsourcing/project management/process tools will help enable this of course, but no magic I see
[21.38:12 h] Jason Smithson: I also see crabgrass as highly unlikely to be useful enough to be worth the trouble so I'd like to immediately start entertaining new ideas there