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Talk:Updated cooking methods in modern kitchens

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Here on this page, I Johan / Yeahvle, invite you to discuss a couple of aspects of this project.

Do you have additional ideas or perhaps questions about the way i present the theme and why I have these purposes?

Are there further goals and visions that I can add to it, making the concept wider, broader? (of course without losing focus of the original ambitions, purposes and goals)

I would love if the methods could be easily used by anyone. So I invite you to test them out, and give me feedback on how you felt that it worked out for you.

Do you have suggestions on changing, editing, adding anything? If it is spelling or mistakes of smaller things like grammar or stuff like that, feel free to edit the page directly, if you consider yourself able to do so.

Do you have knowledge of other methods that is used in any type of cooking that is beneficial in terms of saving electricity, gas, water, transports? Perhaps together we can attempt to find ways to apply those methods to modern kitchen structures. As long as it is better alternatives to existing waste-ful behaviour. And I am never saying no to hearing about inspirational stories... so hit me with a comment or edit or a line on my talk-page

--Yeahvle 21:25, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Information and project explanations[edit]

At first the project was simply personal (for me, Johan (the user : Yeahvle ) but I will appreciate further additions and development from other users, if they have some inspiration from cooking in many undeveloped parts of the world. Primarily the article is only about ideas and methods that can be applied to modern kitchen equipment.

A personal ambition right now is to not mention anything about climate crisis, carbon footprint, environmental impact, side effects about waste or anything like that, that potentially could reduce the potential massive impact of this concept. I will use this mindset in a test to try if the focus of this project will be making it more easily adapted by everyone that is normally not interested in living green. I hope you will respect that ambition and follow along in my train of thought, for a while, it is only an effort of me to try to change the focus from the infected climate debate onto the solidarity to all other individuals living now and to those in the future.

I, Johan / Yeahvle, was originally thinking about writing a book on this topic, without telling it is really a promotion for sustainability and green living in modern world, but I would like the information to become spread as fast as possible, and to as many as possible, and I have no interest of personal profit from this project.

So, gradually the article here will sprout and grow with more information, recipes, methods and illustrations. I do not have a camera, so if you attempt to cook something using any of my methods I would be glad if you submitted your photos (small sizes please)(if you upload them solely for this article please use this at the start of your filename "Yeahvle_Cooking" so it will not be lost or erased in the filing cabinets of appropedia)

I hope these simple cooking methods will be appreciated, used by many, become well-known and spread to many, in order to help inspire and change behavior ever so slightly among many in north and western world.

And in a later stage I want to compile and release this project entirely in a book form. Both the article aswell as many of the notes and discussions about how and where it was created. And I will print copies and try to sell at different outlets (second-hand-shops, thrift-stores, used-clothes-markets)

So if you add something/anything to this project, I hope that you will agree with the general Creative Commons licence of appropedia and that you understand you will get no profit at all from your contribution as I plan to donate all future income from this project to other small projects that benefit poor people or improvements to alter the life in richer peoples lives towards nega-watt-thinking or a zero-emission-life.

I know that wikis are better if the articles are written neutrally. And as I mostly write from a very personal point of view, I am trying to change. Please have patience with me, i am trying to go back and edit and alter my texts as I go along.

--Yeahvle 19:59, 20 November 2010 (UTC) --Yeahvle 11:26, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Why is this project needed?[edit]

Everyone eats food! People eat 2-4 times per day. Storing groceries and preparing it at home uses energy and takes sometimes a long time. Buying ready-made, eating at restaurants or ordering take-out often requires driving with a car, that wastes also a lot of money and fuel. With learning some smart methods families get knowledge that potentially can cut their electricity costs for cooking in half!

Why not start somewhere else? Everything else that people do is very individual and difficult to make simple changes to. Buildings are difficult and expensive to re-build and retro-fit with more insulation in the walls and/or multiple-glazed windows. Cars is sometimes needed by people depending on how far away they live from work, shops and the local bus routes.

And people don't really need an instruction or manual to make them take the bike to work, or try to find the closest bus route to make them change those habits.

The best advice those people would benefit from is to plan better, and try to move closer to their work place some time in the future, or choose their next home depending on its energy-efficiency and location relative to shops and collective transport systems like bus-routes/subway-stations and so on. —The preceding comment was added by Yeahvle (talkcontribs) 19:34, 27 November 2010


Comments[edit]

Some comments about the article:

  • Title: the article title is prone to date quicklyW when newer cooking methods appear, and does not clearly reflect the article contents, which are specifically about low-energy cooking in modern kitchens, without regard to when the methods originated or were adopted. Also, the word "methods" appears unnecessary, because cooking is unavoidably about methods. Even the word "modern" will eventually become dated, but that should be OK for a few decades if we cannot think of a more durable term. Thus I suggest moving the article to:
Yes, I agree that this title is strange, but I think the first word should be Cooking or Food. I still haven't worked out the best option yet. And would like to hear some more suggestions, especially versions that keep it open to being used in another technique I am going to write about: "Food storage with reducing energy in modern kitchens" --Yeahvle 01:15, 10 January 2011 (PST)
  • The "why" should be separate from the "how", perhaps in a separate advocacy article. Readers will probably divide into two groups:
    • Those who need to be convinced they should cook with less energy. (Not ready for the "how" yet.)
    • Those who are already convinced. (Probably less interested in the "why" by now.)
Yes, I agree, but have not worked out exactly how to draw the line.--Yeahvle 01:15, 10 January 2011 (PST)
  • Departures from Wikipedia Manual of Style.W I am still relatively inexperienced on Appropedia (most of my editing has been on WikipediaW) so I do not know to what extent this site intends to adhere to Wikipedia's style. If the intent is to style our articles similar to Wikipedia's, I can easily do that here.
I have no to little experience of wiki and appropedia. And I started to write this article with the intent of publishing the info as a guide-book later. --Yeahvle 01:15, 10 January 2011 (PST)
  • Need links to related content on Appropedia, such as Fireless cookers. A navigation template would help with that. I can make one after I port Wikipedia:Template:Navbox to Appropedia.
  • Need to research similar material available elsewhere online. No need to re-invent wheels.
I have done research. The thing I focus on is ease of application for anyone, without requiring user to build something. And most methods described involve some that can cause spills and unneccessary difficult manouevres: lifting a pot and placing it inside a tight fitting box or vessel. So many users will not continue using the techniques when they feel it is too much cleaning up afterwards. So it is the simplicity of the actions I want to promote. --Yeahvle 01:15, 10 January 2011 (PST)

KVDP 01:56, 27 December 2011 (PST)

  • Additional tips or benefits not mentioned:
    • Replace charred stove drip pans with shiny chrome-plated new drip pans. Up to 30% energy saving immediately, because the shiny pan reflects infrared radiation back up to the pot. A charred black drip pan absorbs infrared radiation and gets hotter, re-radiating heat away from pot. I have personally tried this and noted I was able to turn down the stove a step while getting the same cooking time.
I do not want this project to involve unneccesary investment. And you see that I focus primarily on electrical stoves, they are the most common in european homes. Yes, a black object gets heated up, but releasing that energy slowly straight upwards. so don't worry about it too much --Yeahvle 01:15, 10 January 2011 (PST)
  • Modern insulated pots allow fireless cooking techniques: the cook initially warms the inner pot on the burner for 10 minutes, then places the heated inner pot in the insulated outer pot to continue cooking without additional heat. I have not personally gotten around to trying this, but I intend to.
Somehow proves my point : being a bit too tricky to try. simply use a lid and place the heated pot on a stone or thick hard-wood-board. That improves the efficiency quite a bit. --Yeahvle 01:15, 10 January 2011 (PST)
  • Using less energy to cook is advantageous in hot weather, as it reduces undesirable heat gain in the house. This lets the air conditioner use less energy, or improves comfort if no air conditioning is used.

--Teratornis 13:28, 9 January 2011 (PST)

  • And keep the drip pan clean to avoid charring it again with new spills. Wash it off after any spill, rather than cooking again over the spilled material, which will bake and char it into the pan surface. --Teratornis 13:31, 9 January 2011 (PST)
There should not be any spills if the method is very simple. --Yeahvle 01:15, 10 January 2011 (PST)
  • Also need to quantify the gains from different techniques. How much energy (or money, or carbon emissions) can someone save by adopting these techniques? What fraction of a typical person's utility bill goes to cooking? Just knowing that something is "better" is not enough. People need to know how much better. --Teratornis 13:34, 9 January 2011 (PST)
Again, as I go for the simplest education style, just saying a little lower utility bill is enough incentive for many to try it for themselves. Compare with low-energy light bulbs, noone really does the math when buying those, we just change, because it is general knowledge. So I do not fully agree with "People need to know how much".
Thanks a lot for all your comments! I appreciate it! --Yeahvle 01:15, 10 January 2011 (PST)
People can follow the herd without knowing why. But for someone to get ahead of the crowd, they probably need to know the numbers. For example, most people do not seem to have any idea of the fuel they consume by flying, since the airlines make a point of obscuring it. Most people probably cannot relate the energy they save by recycling, or changing light bulbs, to the energy they burn by flying. For many people it seems travel is exempt from this calculation. But the carbon dioxide behaves the same way regardless of the source. Actually flying may have a larger impact on warming because the emissions are released at high altitude. --Teratornis 21:53, 28 February 2011 (PST)

Electricity consumption[edit]

As a first little reference on how I personally could cut my utility bills in half : from 1 200 kWh / year, to a new estimate of 550-650 kWh / year. ( Total yearly cost for 2011 is estimated to becoming below 200 Euro, or 300$ incl energy tax and VAT)

  • First I turned off my freezer (2006 or 2007?)
  • I threw away my old TV (now i watch news and films on internet, using a very low energy computer and LCD-display)
  • I have only low-energy lightbulbs, some are 2W LED!
  • But I still turn off lights when i leave that room they are in.
  • (Sometimes when I go to bathroom i sit in the dark for most of the time)
  • I stopped using phones in 2008 or 2009, simpler to use email and facebook to keep in touch with family & friends. (no need for chargers sitting in the socket 24/7) (and of course meeting them face to face once in a while)
  • I prepare vegetarian food 2-3 days per week. Cous-cous-salads are very versatile and easy to change daily with different herbs, spices and fresh vegetables. (estimated yearly cost for food have also dropped drastically, now it is between 1 200$ - 1 500$ per year for me, that is little bit below 1 000 Euro)
  • The rest of the days I try to cook with using different types of tinned, conserved fish products, that can sit in room temperature for up to a year. Tuna, Mackerell and so on.
  • I never boil potatoes or rice anymore.
  • I can turn off my fridge for the weeks that I do not need to store any dairy or fresh products like meat.

If I need to store a fresh product at fridge temperature: It takes only 2 hours for the fridge to get to working temperature. Because I put big chunks of styrofoam on some of the shelves, reducing the amount of free air. Insulating the fridge for the seconds that I open the door.

notes: heating of my small apartment (45 square metres) and the heating of hot water for bathroom and sink is done with a citywide centralized system that is producing the heat from biofuels, wind and waterpower. So my utility bill is strictly measuring consumption for all of the wall sockets, lights, computer, radio, cooking. (I have no gas costs.)

note 2: electricity in sweden is roughly 45% Nuclear, 45% large scale Hydro-power dams, 2-3% wind and solar, rest is diesel, coal and imported from neighbouring countries, which also have a lot of renewable. —The preceding comment was added by Yeahvle (talkcontribs) 18:42, 26 February 2011

That's pretty good. You use less electricity in a year than the average household uses in a month where I live. I made Google spreadsheets of my natural gas and electricity usage since 1999. --Teratornis 00:54, 29 February 2012 (PST)

Improved efficiency for boiling water over a gas flame[edit]

While watching documentary videos about high speed trains, I saw this segment that illustrates how the wikipedia:Stephenson's Rocket set the standard for steam locomotive design since the 1830s, by combining the multi-tubular boiler with the blast pipe:

I do not care too much about steam locomotives, but the demonstration of rapid boiling with the multi-tubular pan over the gas flame caught my interest.

Now I am wondering if all the cooking pans on gas stoves around the world are boiling water inefficiently, since they do not direct the hot combustion gases through tubes that pass through the interior of the pan, as in the video segment above. I have been playing around with some gasifying wood stoves I made from two empty food cans of two different sizes, similar to the many designs on YouTube (for example DIY: How to make a backpacking wood gasifier stove). The gasifying stove can produce a tall jet of flame but since I only use it outdoors the wind blows the flame around and a teakettle requires a substantial fire before it will get hot enough to boil. (I do not drink tea but I like to eat rice, potatoes, rice, oatmeal, and noodles which require boiling, so I am interested in other methods of boiling water besides my electric stove.) Presumably this would be less of an issue with an electric stove, since the stove element contacts the bottom of a pan efficiently. However, for boiling water with electricity I suspect a more efficient method is to use an electric teakettle appliance that immerses the heating element in the water for complete contact. I will have to find some comparisons of the various methods. The energy efficiency of cooking seems to get little coverage in most media outlets that cover cooking. --Teratornis 00:54, 29 February 2012 (PST)

I've seen some kind of "efficient wood stove" (a DIY effort at a friend's place, I think) and the saucepan fitted snugly into the top of the stove, and IIUC, the hot flue gases were directly all around the outside of the pot. So you can't easily switch between pots of different sizes, but it should be much more efficient than the standard open cooktop.
Some comparisons would be great. I think you're probably right about the electric kettle. --Chriswaterguy 08:37, 29 February 2012 (PST)
It's probably in rounding-error territory compared to the big contributors to personal carbon footprint such as driving, flying, and heating. (For example, even driving a Prius - the most fuel-efficient car sold in the US besides the handful of all-electrics - the average American distance of 12,000 miles per year spews about 3.5 tonnes of carbon dioxide, and cooking for one person generates far less. A slight improvement in cooking efficiency would have a tiny impact compared to the choice to live car-free.) But still, there are 7 billion people on Earth now and probably every single one of them either eats cooked food or would like to. And in poor countries there are shortages of cooking fuel, so any improvement in efficiency would help. It's possible that boiling water in a conventional pan over an open flame consumes several times more fuel than necessary. We should also calculate the ideal case which would be the minimum amount of fuel required to heat an amount of water from room temperature to boiling, if all the heat of combustion could end up in the water. Then compare that to the observed efficiencies of locomotive multi-tubular boilers. --Teratornis 15:35, 3 March 2012 (PST)