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<center>'''Welcome to my talk page!'''  
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'''Welcome!'''  
  
Feel free to leave a comment or question.  
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Feel free to leave a comment, question or greeting.
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{{Discussion tracker}}
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{| cellspacing="0" align="center" cellpadding="5" style="width: 100%; background-color: LightCyan; border: 1px solid Cyan; text-align: center;"
{{Gnome links}}
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|'''Edits to Appropedia by myself are as a regular member of the community, and sometimes as an administrator. <br>Unless otherwise stated, they are ''not'' legal or official actions as a director of the Appropedia Foundation.'''
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Also see:
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*[[User_talk:Dgilman]]
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| {{Discussion tracker}}
*[[User:Curtbeckmann/Topic table]]
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| valign=top|{{Gnome links}}
*My [[User:{{PAGENAME}}#Scratchpad|'''scratchpad''']], at the bottom of my user page. At the moment it's like a would-be inventor's shed with half-made things which I intend to do something with... Feel free to go in and poke around ;).
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----
  
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<center>'''<big>[[/Archive/]]</big>'''</center>
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----
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== Introduction==
  
----
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Greetings Chriswaterguy, this is Greenguy of the Energy Storage by Lifting a Weight page.  I have a page I would like you to look at and give me your opinion on that seems to be up your alley: [[Water Desalinization Using Water/Wind/Solar Power]].  I am trying to get some engineers interested in taking it beyond an idea and designing something.  You might also be interested in checking out this page: [[Carbon Capture and Storage Using Wood]].  If you feel up to it I wouldn't mind if you double checked my calculations.
'''<big>Old conversations</big>'''<br><br>
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Old conversations are in the '''[[/Archive/]]'''.
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 +
It's a great spring day here in Canada and I hope you're having a good day down under.  Bye for now. {{ Unsigned |GreenGuy | 2014}}
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:Replied on your [[user talk:GreenGuy|talk page]] – thanks. -- [[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] ([[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]) 19:47, 25 May 2014 (PDT)
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== Could you rig up a way to... ==
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Hi Chriswaterguy.  You seem to be Mr. Fix-It around here.  Could you rig up a way to search editors by physical location?  Also it would be nice to see who's an engineer and who's a farmer by search, but it might backfire if it comes to pass that ten-thumbs hippies like me cease to get messages because everybody's filtering for professionals.  Still, I looked at the long list of active members, wishing I could tell who's an engineer so I could ask them for favors.  :)
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== Mentoring? ==
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Hi, chriswaterguy. I'm new to both wikipedia and appropedia. can u help me by being an mentor?
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Have a nice day {{unsigned|Ingeniour|15 April 2012}}
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 +
== Scientific method on Appropedia? ==
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 +
Hi Chriswaterguy. I'm new here.
 
<br>
 
<br>
----
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A question: I've been editing Wikipedia for a while, and there's a continuing discussion (aka war) there on the extent to which content needs to be governed by the scientific method and mainstream science, vs accepting "alternative science", "traditional wisdom", etc.
'''<big>Conversations on other sites</big>'''<br><br>
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<br>
Keeping an eye on...
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I'm especially concerned about this because of the likelihood of people furnishing harmful misinformation - it's bad enough when people say that you can build a 5 mw cold fusion generator out of paper clips and twine, but when people start posting that chicken soup cures AIDS or the like, I worry about the possibility of serious harm.
* [http://kevininliberia.blogspot.com/2007/01/review-of-robert-calderisis-trouble.html kevininliberia]
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<br>
* [http://www.homerdixon.com/forum/read.php?f=1&i=514&t=514 Appropedia - a wiki for solutions to our mess ]
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'''I'd like to know what the policy/guideline/"stance" of Appropedia is on this issue.'''
* [http://www.homerdixon.com/forum/read.php?f=1&i=369&t=369 EROI on renewables]
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<br>
* [http://www.greenoptions.com/blog%252F2007%252F02%252F05%252Ftip_o_the_day_go_pvc_free PVC]
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(I see that you wrote at [[Appropedia:Neutral point of view]]: "Appropedia also places a strong emphasis on scientific fact and [[a:rigor|Rigor]].")
* [http://andrewnetherton.wordpress.com/2007/02/07/natural-water-treatment-the-slow-sand-filter/ sustainapedia blog]
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<br>
*[http://blogs.business2.com/business2blog/2006/02/dean_kamens_lat.html Post about Dean Kamen at Business2 blog]
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- I've also posted this question to [[User:Lonny| Lonny's]] Talk page.
*[http://www.afrigadget.com/2007/03/01/bio-latrines-in-kenyan-slums/ Bio Latrines in Kenyan Slums]
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<br>
 +
Thanks -- [[User:Writtenonsand|Writtenonsand]] 06:35, 15 February 2008 (PST)
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Hi - thanks for your reply on my Talk page. On Wikipedia many of my edits are of the "WikiGnome" variety - "WikiGnomes work behind the scenes of a wiki, tying up little loose ends and making things run more smoothly."
 +
<br>
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I see a lot of redlinks and unlinked vocabulary pages here on Appropedia, and my instinct is to make stub pages for them or link them to Wikipedia{{w|Wikipedia}} as appropriate. I assume that that would be okay? -- [[User:Writtenonsand|Writtenonsand]] 16:03, 17 February 2008 (PST)
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:Glad to have a WikiGnome on board! I've thought at times about our need for this. Some of us have been trying to juggle gnome work with other things, with difficulty, so your contributions will be ''very'' welcome.  
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:Stubs would be great; linking to Wikipedia is also good (it's a judgment call - don't spend too long thinking about each one as they can be changed). I've stopped using {{tl|WP}} now and use {{tl|wp sup}} instead, as it allows an Appropedia redlink together with a WP link. (Perhaps we should even replace WP with the wp sup code, to make it simpler.)
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:In making stubs, I think you'll find [[APDS]] useful. Don't hesitate to contact me (or anyone else here) - email or IM (Skype, same username) also possible if you prefer. Thanks again! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] &middot; <small>[[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]</small> 19:35, 17 February 2008 (PST)
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::Thanks -- [[User:Writtenonsand|Writtenonsand]] 15:19, 18 February 2008 (PST)
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== [[Drought Myth]]: copyleft? ==
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Hi - I just went through and wikified [[Drought Myth]], but now looking at it I'm not 100% sure that we were formally given copyleft to it.
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It says "'''Source:''' Reprinted and shared freely by the copyright holder at http://selfmadefarmer.wordpress.com/", and was apparently originally posted to Appropedia by [[User:Krystle]], who is "apparently" the owner of selfmadefarmer.wordpress.com . We're sure that this was intended to be placed under the GFDL by the owner? selfmadefarmer.wordpress.com doesn't seem to have any copyright/licensing info.
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 +
I'm probably being a little paranoid about this, but my experience with copyright, attribution, and editing articles on wikis suggests that that's often a good idea.
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-- [[User:Writtenonsand|Writtenonsand]] 07:29, 19 February 2008 (PST)
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::Here's another: [[Methane]]: "Portions (cc) [http://www.aum.ca/seeds/ S.E.E.D.S.] under [http://creativecommons.org/ Creative Commons]".
 +
 
 +
::What's "cc"? I can't find any relevant definition. "Creative Commons"? If "copyright" or some non-GFDL license, then this content can't appear on Appropedia, right? Is Creative Commons 100% compatible with GFDL? (Again, only asking because of the blood I've seen these issues shed in the past.) -- [[User:Writtenonsand|Writtenonsand]] 07:50, 19 February 2008 (PST)
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:::Thanks for your diligence - I agree it's better to be a little paranoid, and make sure we get it right.
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:::[[User:Krystle]] is indeed the [http://selfmadefarmer.wordpress.com/ Selfmadefarmer] - she has a newsletter and we've exchanged emails. A user has the right to add anything they own the copyright to, and in doing so releases it under Appropedia's license. If there's still any ambiguity at all, please ask Krystle on her talk page, or let me know and I'll email her.
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:::(cc) is indeed Creative Commons, and is a play on (c) or ©. Unfortunately CC-by-sa (the closest equivalent to GFDL, I believe) is not fully compatible, but that's expected to change soon - the people in charge of the licenses have agreed to make them interoperable. However, if a site uses CC-by or CC-by-sa, I expect they'd be happy to approve by email for it to be also released under GFDL.
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:::I can't see a license statement or CC mark on [http://www.aum.ca/seeds/ S.E.E.D.S.], so I'll email [[User:Ericblazek|Ericblazek]], who added this and the content now at [[:Category:Biofuel]]. Then, if needed, one of us can contact the S.E.E.D.S. folks. Thanks again! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] &middot; <small>[[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]</small> 15:00, 19 February 2008 (PST)
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 +
::::Thanks again for all your help. -- [[User:Writtenonsand|Writtenonsand]] 18:33, 19 February 2008 (PST)
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Another:<br>[[Cider Cool Off the Press]]<br>(From BITTERSWEET, Volume I, No. 4, Summer 1974) <br>Story and photographs by Rick Bishop<br>- I see that this is [[:Category:Bittersweet]], and that there are 29 articles in this category. We just have blanket permission for all articles in [[:Category:Bittersweet]]? -- [[User:Writtenonsand|Writtenonsand]] 17:43, 20 February 2008 (PST)
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== "Skills" :-) ==
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You wrote: "so that a WikiGnome such as yourself can work more efficiently and make better use of your skills."
 +
<br>
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Heh, "skills". I wouldn't actually claim any, but I can lift heavy things. Or actually, light and medium things.
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<br>
 +
Thanks again for the tips. (I'm certainly interested in ''developing'' my skills.)
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<br>
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Also, I see that [[User:Smallaxe]]'s page says: "ENGR 305 Project: Directed Internship to overhaul the current Appropedia design, to add a more appealing and user friendly environment to this implementation of "MediaWiki"," along with some details. Sounds interesting. -- [[User:Writtenonsand|Writtenonsand]] 16:26, 21 February 2008 (PST)
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:I've certainly seen you show patience, persistence, good judgment and knowledge, for a start... whether we call them skills is incidental :).
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:I hadn't noticed that on Smallaxe's page - it seems this is one of Lonny's students, taking on a very valuable project. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] &middot; <small>[[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]</small> 16:43, 21 February 2008 (PST)
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== Ecovillages ==
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Not sure what the policies are on adding or editing stuff, so I thought I'd ask here before I sign up.  I'm part of a new eco-village that's growing just outside of Ithaca, NY (near but not the same as EcoVillage at Ithaca).  We have a very strong focus on sustainability and emergency preparedness, and I've been promoting appropedia to our members as a great resource.  Is it appropriate to ask for, or to add myself, a link on the Ecovillages page that you edit?
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Also, just to point out, Ithaca is misspelled in one or two places on the existing page.
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Thanks!
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:Please add a link, and (even better) add a page describing your project. We'd love to hear more about what you're doing - and please let us know if you need any help!
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: I trust our gnomes will fix the spellings in time, but aways feel free to make corrections. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] &middot; <small>[[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]</small> 18:13, 8 March 2008 (PST)
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== Personal message ==
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Sorry, Chris!
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Could not figure out where to put a personal message to you, so I try here.
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I react to your input on my talk page at Demotech. I appreciate to talk to you about the contribution Demotech may have to Appropedia as I am aware that you are one of the drivers of Appropedia. My Skype name is reindervt You can reach me best at midnight my time. Evenually you can make sure by sending a mail to info@demotech.org .
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I look forward to speak to you!
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Greetings, Reinder
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:Cool - talk to you soon! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 05:28, 8 May 2008 (PDT)
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== Ekopedia and others... ==
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I arrive and actually I do like most of the people create a new subject without being sure that there are none already talking about this... I am part of Ekopedia. It is a participative encyclopedie about alternative technique... It start in French but now it develops in many others languages...
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Check [http://ekopedia.org Ekopedia]
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We earlier tryed to have a collaboration with Tiptheplanet... It did not work out... Pity so much dubble information...
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Check [http://www.tiptheplanet.com TipThePlanet]
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On their Website I now discover Appropedia seems to be the same also...
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Check [http://www.appropedia.org Appropedia]
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I have to had this student initiative...
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Check [http://www.demotech.org Demotech]
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So I feel a little bit sad to see so much person motivated but not working together... If you feel like talking about and trying to create synergie... mail me at olivier(a)kaospilots(dot)nl
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Thank you
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:Very exciting! Answered by email. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 22:30, 25 May 2008 (PDT)
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Hi Chris, I am trying to contact you, but I can't find your email on the site, so I'll try like this... I would like to discuss with you the idea of putting a book I have written online so it can be collaboratively revised.... hope you can help, I think it will be a rather exciting project (for me anyway!).  I am new to the ins and outs, the perils and pitfalls of such a thing, and also the support you are able to offer... my email is robjhopkins (at) gmail.com.  Many thanks, Rob.
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:Answered by email. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 18:02, 4 July 2008 (PDT)
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== Water ways as a natural highway ==
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==Rainwater Harvesting and Blogging==
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I thought you might like this.
Please feel free to move your personal blog here. I think that appropedia should serve as a blog space and social networking site (more on that later) for those working towards change.
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I hope you don't mind but I googled you.  And found your work on Vadgam rainwater catchement.  I have had some success using [[wikipedia:Ferrocement]] rainwater harvesting with little noticeable taste.  Here are some links you may find useful... I should probably add some of these to appropedia and wikipedia accordingly.  It looks like the ferrocement page at wikipedia could use some help.
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http://bigrivershow.com/
  
;http://www.irha-h2o.org/documents.html
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:Thanks! Will have a closer look when I have a faster connection. --Chriswaterguy -13:34, 15 July 2008 (PDT)
:The documents seem to be missing right now... but should be up soon I hope.
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;http://www.waternet.ihe.nl/aboutWN/pdf/Handia&al.pdf
 
:In this urban Zambia project they picked ferrocement as the most cost effective.
 
  
;http://www.itdg.org/docs/technical_information_service/rainwater_harvesting.pdf
 
:Nice 24 page rainwater harvesting document from [http://www.itdg.org/ Practical Action].  Inculdes ferrocement tanks.
 
  
;http://homepage.mac.com/vsvyas/science.html
 
:The Ajit Foundation, Scientific Resource Centre, Jaipur
 
::'''SimTanka:''' software tool for rainwater harvesting performance modeling.  This software has meet some common international development problems, read more about it at the link.
 
::'''Jal-Chitra:''' software tool to create an interactive water map of a village.
 
  
In addition, the great and short documentary [http://www.sgi-usa.org/thesgiusa/community/programs/earthcharter/USwebEC03.html#AboutAQR A Quiet Revolution] has a piece about a village in India digging rainwater harvesting swails for ground water recharging.  I believe there is a viewable movie at that site, but if not I can put it on a server for you.  I am emailing the producers to ask for what they think about hosting the video on google video or the such.
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== Beginners_permaculture_garden ==
  
I think I have some homemade movies on ferrocement as wellPlease let me know if you are interested.
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Chris - not sure where to respond to you.  So I'll put it hereThx for the twitter help for [[Beginners_permaculture_garden]]. Our Chicago project is to build a Chicago MyFarm organization like [http://myfarmsf.com/ MyFarm].  See [http://chicagolandsfuture.org/mwiki/index.php/Chicago_MyFarm Chicago MyFarm]. We want the whole thing to be open source, creative commons, etc. So, we'll be pushing how-to's to Appropedia, etc. - [[user:bmorrisett]] (morrisett at midwestcyber.com - my spam software works pretty well)
::I posted those videos and a rough powerpoint with some photos to the password protected http://www.appropedia.org/tempshare1/. These files are very unedited and unprofessional, but they are hopefully somewhat educational. This project was only the second time this person ever built a ferrocement tank, but the first time was very successful. I emailed you the password.  Please ask before sharing these files as I need to get written permission from the author (I have verbal permission).  In addition, I will be asking the author to make an appropedia page on this process and to fix up the videos, which I will then put on Google Video. --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] 18:49, 4 July 2006 (PDT)
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===From the appropedia html sister site===
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:Thanks for the note! I only just noticed it, and moved it from my user page to here on the talk page. (Sorry, it's still a bit confusing for people new to wikis.)
(mentioned here just for fun)
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;http://www.pequals.com/at/cre8rainwater/
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:Great project. Keep taking the lead, and keep me updated - actually, keep the Appropedia community updated (which includes me of course). --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 04:37, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
:Whimsical page about at home rainwater harvesting with ferrocement (this system is not for drinking).
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:The system is small and uncovered and the pictures are oversized.  But still fun.
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;http://www.pequals.com/at/riodell_rainwater/
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== Some questions about translating pages ==
:Plastic tank rainwater harvesting for a Community Resource Center in an effort to water a community garden that would help span the cultural gap between the Latino and Anglo members of their community.
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Hmm... Sorry if none of that is usefull, I just got a little excited about the project. --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] 22:54, 30 June 2006 (PDT)
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I'm not sure if this is the right place to put this but here goes. I was wondering how exactly to format translated pages when it's not always obvious? For example, the "Tepache" stub I recently put up -- the word tepache already is in Spanish, but it's also the title of the English article, so what title do I give the Spanish translation? is there a standard? (I tentatively did a translation of '''Kvass''' and titled it '''Kvass_(es)'''. Seems simple enough, but maybe there should be a es.appropedia.org subdomain like Wikipedia has?) + is there a template tag to add to the top of pages to direct users to translated versions? (there was mention of this in the translation help article, but couldn't tell if it exists) [[User:Oorxax|Oorxax]] 17:25, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
  
==I want your thesis paper, plus blog thoughts==
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:You handled it very well.
Hi Chris! Just came across [[Water_management_and_culture_in_Indonesian_cities]], and I'd love to read it!  Seems like a book-sized topic... I almost encouraged you to write a book, but 2 things stopped me.  First, I'm sure you'd have to give up Appropedia, and second, the content probably belongs in Appropedia. :-)
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The blog thought is related to Lonny's comment earlier that suggests blogging in Appropedia. My opinion is that blogging on a wiki is a strain.  Good blogging sites have several advantages: each blog post can have it's own semi-permanent link (which you could do on a wiki, but there would be a fair amount of overhead to accomplish it), and blog sites help you be visible in blog searches, which is half (or more) of the point of blogging!  At least for me.  So I'm still interested in joining forces in blogland.  I think we could very easily experiment if you create an account at blogger.com.  Let me know.  --[[User:Curtbeckmann|Curtbeckmann]] 15:11, 17 September 2006 (PDT)
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:I added the interlanguage template to the Kvass pages,and yes, yes, yes, we need subdomains like Wikimedia projects (or subwikis like Wikitravel, but I think subdomains look tidier). We have been extremely short of tech help - [[User:Lonny|Lonny]]'s the master of tech things and doing a good job of keeping things afloat, not by choice but because there's noone doing it. We're working on recruiting volunteers - do you have any green geek friends? :-) - and have recently set up a dev wiki. We're also discussing a merger with [http://ekopedia.org/ Ekopedia], which is mainly French and already has the subdomainsThanks! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 03:39, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  
:I want to check through my thesis before posting, in case there's formatting issues etc... And I need to take a wikibreak for a few days, as I have much to do. I'll check back in a few days and see what's been happening, especially re some of the questions at the Village pump.
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==E-waste Installing Linux on old PCs==
 +
Hey there Chris, I came across an opportunity to reduce the e-waste in Humboldt County. Basically, I was approached by a classmate wanting to know how to install a Linux distro on old PCs in order to reuse, recycle, and educate. It's the same project outline as [http://www.freegeek.org/ Free Geek]. As far as I was told most of the e-waste in Humboldt gets shipped out once a year and only one person in the county is taking advantage of it in a business fashion. Anyhow, I hear you are the resident guru with Linux and was wondering how I would go about installing Linux on these PCs. I found out that Vector Linux or Slackware might be good distros to use but I have several questions on where to start i.e hardware specs, software, etc. Any direction would be greatly appreciated.  
  
:I agree re blogging - will attend to this soon.
+
Also, in the near future I will be going over the GNU and CC agreements in order to get permission for the database provided by
 +
[https://intranet.agroinnovations.com/library/login.php agroinnavations] . I'm not quite sure how to approach this. Lonny suggested that I make a spreadsheet listing all the relative copyrights. I don't have a exact question pertaining to this for you yet, but look for some soon.
  
:Missed your chat message a few minutes ago - I was in a different browser window and didn't see.  --[[User:Singkong2005|Singkong2005]] <sup><small>[[User talk:Singkong2005|talk]]</small></sup> 20:57, 17 September 2006 (PDT)
+
Thanks, --[[User:Steven M.|Steven M.]] 00:40, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
  
::Sounds like a good decision. Blogging will not be encouraged on Appropedia, but encouraged and linked to off site in blogland. --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] 10:50, 18 September 2006 (PDT)
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== Aloha CWG... ==
  
:Yep, still interested in co-blogging!  I'll go poke around about how to invite you onto the team.  Hope that personal friend situation works out...kind of missing you.  By the way, your picture at http://www.nabuur.com/userinfo.php?uid=6488 seems perfectly good for the short term.  --[[User:Curtbeckmann|Curtbeckmann]] 14:13, 7 October 2006 (PDT)
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thanks for the tip on how to make my <nowiki><references /></nowiki> thingy work better ==
  
==Nudge, nudge==
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....and thanks for rolling out the welcome mat to me too. Hope to talk more soon.
Hi, Chris. I nagged Lonny so only fair I nag you too. Please prioritize some attention on the vision / mission effort :-) Thanks, --[[User:Curtbeckmann|CurtB]] 12:41, 9 November 2006 (PST)
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For the life, Stele Ely
 +
http://XOEarth.org  http://ecofx.org
  
:Yes, keep meaning to, but getting distracted. A bit of promo would be much more strategic... --[[User:Singkong2005|Singkong2005]] &middot; <small>[[User talk:Singkong2005|talk]]</small> 15:43, 9 November 2006 (PST)
 
  
==Reminder: strategic==
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==Hi Chris ==
*Vision / Mission
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Thank you very much for the instantaneous reply. Can I expect a mail when the site is up?
*Worldchanging
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:I'm trying to focus on my CV/jobs stuff at the moment... but in the process of looking, and networking, I keep finding stuff to put on Appropedia. That explains my recent activity. Will try to get to the WorldChanging stuff soon. Have been thinking about it though (e.g. plan of attack, leaving some really good stuff out e.g. re porting, so that there's enough to justify a second article at a later stage.)
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[[User:Georgedappilly|EMGeorge]]
  
:Of course we can always comment there, too, if we have something on Appropedia relevant to a WorldChanging article - and it can be motivation to create the article. --[[User:Singkong2005|Singkong2005]] &middot; <small>[[User talk:Singkong2005|talk]]</small> 16:46, 15 November 2006 (PST)
 
  
::No problems.  I'm a believer in the squeaky wheels theory.  I notice you're active, which means you must have a bit of time, and just want to nudge/nag to be sure you're thinking of the strategic stuff as well (mostly because you mentioned an interest... if you hadn't I wouldn't bother you about it). As for the next submission to WC, I figure we can't even imagine the great newsworthy things that will come in the next 3 months.  I believe a big "hockey stick" is just beginning.  One thing I'd really like is see more porting helpers... I'm beginning to find more content and can well imagine a strategy where those of us with an eye for good material spend time finding it (and getting permission to republish), and, in parallel, people with good editing skills spend the time porting it.  But if I was really thinking that strategically, I'd have tweaked the main page to try to capture more porting helpers!  --[[User:Curtbeckmann|CurtB]] 17:28, 15 November 2006 (PST)
+
== green communities ==
:::Any news on a Worldchanging submission?  Were we both waiting for each other?  You mentioned recently that you're going to be busy on other stuff...  Would you like me to take the lead on this submission?  --[[User:Curtbeckmann|CurtB]] 14:05, 4 December 2006 (PST)
+
::::Will try and make some time for it tonight, about 8-9 hours from now. --[[User:Singkong2005|Singkong2005]] &middot; <small>[[User talk:Singkong2005|talk]]</small> 19:07, 4 December 2006 (PST)
+
  
::::Dealing with a bit of an urgent matter, should be managed soon, will try to get to this by Friday. I want to allow for an hour or two to focus on this WorldChanging promo thing before sending it. --[[User:Singkong2005|Singkong2005]] &middot; <small>[[User talk:Singkong2005|talk]]</small> 05:24, 6 December 2006 (PST)
+
Hello ! thanks again for having pointed out people who could give me some answers yesterday !
:::::Ahem. Avoidance-detection circuit has lit up.  Not sure this is a 2 hour problem, but if it is, the only way to get there is to give it priority.  Sorry to be a nag, happy to simply take it off your list if you prefer.  --[[User:Curtbeckmann|CurtB]] 07:38, 9 December 2006 (PST)
+
Here are our questions if you feel like giving your opinion :  
::::::Working on it tonight... I spent 15 minutes on it last night, and it looked pretty close, then I had a computer crash and lost it :(. Re avoidance, fair call. I decided earlier today to not look at anything else on Appropedia till I've attended to this. --[[User:Singkong2005|Singkong2005]] &middot; <small>[[User talk:Singkong2005|talk]]</small> 02:16, 10 December 2006 (PST)
+
Age :
:::::::This Worldchanging submission is looking pretty close.  Awesome work. BTW I use [http://sessionmanager.mozdev.org/ sessionmanager] and Firefox, that way when my computer crashes my windows, tabs and unsaved text data are usually recovered.  Thank you for your superb activity here, --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] 22:34, 10 December 2006 (PST)
+
Occupation:
::::::Thanks, Chris.  Of course, your responsiveness only encourages my pest behavior :-)  BTW, Lonny found that a (somewhat late) comment on Worldchanging resulted in 8 short term hits.  I'm very pumped about what an actual article could do!  Let me know if there's anything (final check, whatever) that you want from me. I'm also fine if you're happy and want to simply shoot it off! --[[User:Curtbeckmann|CurtB]] 06:56, 11 December 2006 (PST)
+
Country :
 +
When did you join the community ?
 +
How did you get to know it ?
 +
Why did you join it ?
 +
How many times a day/week/month do you go on the website ?
 +
Did you ever take a part in concrete actions following online discussions ? If you did, how often and what kind of actions were they ?
 +
How committed are you ?  (in your community, and more generally, in the whole green « revolution » ?)
 +
In online discussions, what do you see the most : friendly and general discussions or talks about specific green topics ?
 +
How would you qualify your relation with the community (expectations and mutual benefits ? ) ?
 +
In your opinion, to what extent online green communities can be useful ?
 +
thanks !
 +
sarah
  
::::::Actually, I just read it through again, and it looks great!  The editors at Worldchanging are going to put their fingerprints on it anyway, so unless there is some big wart that you can see, I would say it's ready for submission!  --[[User:Curtbeckmann|CurtB]] 07:02, 11 December 2006 (PST)
 
  
:::::::Yep, it's not bad... I'm still not quite satisfied. See the [http://www.worldchanging.com/guidelines/ Submission guidelines], esp:
 
:::::::3) Pithy Writing... we aim for short recommendations, no more than three paragraphs (some things take longer to explain, and sometimes you'll want to review several related items in one recommendation, but the denser and pithier the writing, the better)...
 
  
:::::::4) Excerpts... a great excerpt illustrates the nature of the resource you're recommending and also provides an interesting thought or crucial bit of information for the casual reader who won't follow the link. Cherry-pick, in other words: pull the best quotes from the resource as excerpts in your recommendation.
+
Hi Chris and Sarah,
  
:::::::I've made it pithier, but adding some very brief examples of content would be good. Unfortunately I'm going to have trouble spending much time on a computer in the next 2 or 3 days, so if you guys want to make a final judgement and send it in, I'm cool with that. --[[User:Singkong2005|Singkong2005]] &middot; <small>[[User talk:Singkong2005|talk]]</small> 06:04, 12 December 2006 (PST)
+
I was just thinking about the pros and cons of profiling editors. Plenty of pro's for a limited amount of profile questions; but personally if I answered the whole stack of questions I'm afraid I'd get myself marginalized by subtle prejudice. In general, profiling lifts a barrier to enable prejudice.  Flowergirl
  
== Your Question about Coordination pages ==
+
== Images ISF-IAI documents ==
  
 
Hi Chris,
 
Hi Chris,
 +
Just finished up on the latest articles I made, some bugs remain here and there (a few tables aren't completely correct, ...) but overall the documents seem good enough for now. Have you already contacted the person intrested in porting the images using Adobe Acrobat ? For the moment, I'm now going to be off the grid for 1,5 week because of an upcoming exam (boating licence) , so I won't be on-line this week and a half (I'll do the first part of the [[Agriculture manual]] later-on). What should I do with the ISF-pdf's; I could sent them to the person you mentioned, but perhaps I could also simply upload it to Appropedia (temporarily) ? I btw also sent the mail to ISF-IAI for the required permissions.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 13:34, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
  
Regarding your question about coordination pages, such as [[J Point Donations]].  I think that we should make a [[Template:Infobox_Coordination]] similar to the [[Template:Infobox_Project]] that we are developing for project pages.  This Coordination Infobox could contain the orgainzaiton name (but this may put extra work on, and neccesitate more wikiknowledge of, the page creator), or the template could just say, "Hey this is a coordination page....".  I am also looking at ways (using hooks or bots) to automatically put this type of static infobox on any page with a specific category, such as [[:Category:Coordination]].  Another idea is to have Coordination pages located at [[Your organization name/Collaboration name]] in order to make it clear what the collaboration is part of, and to leave room in the root level article namespace.  --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] 11:38, 8 December 2006 (PST)
+
==OBED==
  
==I did see your comments from Dec 8==
+
Hello Chris,
Hi Chris.  I did see your comments from 12/8 at the "porting/Titles of documents" section.  But I (obviously :-) didn't reply.  I have been acting in accordance (I believe) and didn't have much else to say, but I should have acknowledged your input.  I've also been too busy protecting original pages (wanted to finish that), and haven't created the editable pages yet.  (I did take a moment to port a couple more pages...we were at 199 for a couple days and it was bugging me...then we were at 200 and that was almost worse...made it look "approximate".)  I plan to make editable pages for the "how to" type docs...  I'm still sort of pondering the ported project page question.
+
  
:Cool.  
+
I knew OBED was being spammed. Gave up deleting spam as it was very time consuming and was waiting for my brother, who set it up and hosts it, to add Captcha security.  He finally did this about a week ago.  I just checked and there is a huge amount of new SPambot users and no easy/quick way for me to delete them all.  DO you know of  way to do this?
  
:By the "ported project page question" are you referring to [[Appropedia:Porting pages]], or the title question, or something else? Let me know if there's a specific question you want input on. --[[User:Singkong2005|Singkong2005]] &middot; <small>[[User talk:Singkong2005|talk]]</small> 15:05, 13 December 2006 (PST)
+
As for the community there, sadly its a community of one, me.  I'd be happy for you to mirror the content here.
  
I've also been spending some energy around the Topic categorization happiness.  I like my new table approach.  Perhaps you've commented on that (I haven't checked as I write this).  I feel fairly strongly that things like "Adobe" should not be categorized directly as topics, but should be under earthen construction under alternative construction. 
+
Best
  
:Strongly agree. I hadn't noticed this work (haven't been watching so closely the last week or so) - I'd had some similar thoughts, and Lonny & I had discussed related issues in the past, but not reached a clear resolution, I think (or I didn't quite understand Lonny's vision). I didn't want to change things if I was the only one who thought that way. --[[User:Singkong2005|Singkong2005]] &middot; <small>[[User talk:Singkong2005|talk]]</small> 15:05, 13 December 2006 (PST)
+
Darren
  
::Just checked [[:Category:Fundamental]] & [[:Category:Topics]] - still looks inconsistent. Last time I looked, I was unclear about how we wanted to deal with this, so I didn't fix up too much. My strong feeling is that categoriess like Appropriate technology & Electricity belong in Topic, whereas cats like How to, Resources, Issues, Organization and Program belong in Fundamental. Not sure about Countries - probably in Topic. How does that sound?
+
==Pumps==
 +
*http://www.appropedia.org/File:Piston_VS_Plunger_Pump.png
 +
*http://www.appropedia.org/File:Plunger_pump_types.png
 +
*http://www.appropedia.org/File:Piston_pump_types.png
 +
*http://www.appropedia.org/File:Piston_pump.png
 +
*http://www.appropedia.org/File:Pipe_pump_module.png
 +
*http://www.appropedia.org/File:Plunger_pump.png
 +
*http://www.appropedia.org/File:Water_bottle_valve.png
 +
 +
Made some primary drafts from http://www.fao.org/docrep/010/ah810e/AH810E06.htm#6.1.1
 +
Not sure dough whether when I finish them, they are modified enough to be published as public domain. How much exactly does this need to be (eg beyond recognition, or simply modified so that it's "different") ? Also, I haven't finished them as I'm not sure about the specific differences between a piston and a plunger pump (I'm guessing you may know a little more in this matter, I did some research such as on http://www.wot.utwente.nl/information/tour/handpump.html, but this wasn't very helpful). On the water lifting devices page, in some images it seems like a plunger pump is a pump where the water is pushed so that it rises on the sides of the plunger towards a pipe (see Fig. 28), not sure about the piston pump(eg perhaps with the latter it could be the combination of pushing + pulling the water up, but then the difference between a bucketpump or direct lift would be little, so not sure). On an other image I made, it merely looks like a piston pump is simply a pump with a smaller pusher, and a plunger a pump with a larger pusher. The images would be useful to document a future manual on the construction of borehole pumps (for potable water harvesting, not irrigation)
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 14:58, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
  
::I still favor plural forms for categories (e.g. Category:Topics) - but we haven't reached consensus on this yet. It's worth deciding this before doing lots of edits to cat tags. --[[User:Singkong2005|Singkong2005]] &middot; <small>[[User talk:Singkong2005|talk]]</small> 15:58, 13 December 2006 (PST)
+
:I'm not a pump expert :-) but I found this:  
 +
<blockquote>
  
Putting it another way, since this topic stuff is meant to aid in navigation, if a subject is listed at the topic level, it should not need to appear again lower in the structure.  Regarding topics that "sit on the fence" between two (sometimes 3?) topic subcategories, I believe that those topics should be categorized in all relevant subtopics.
+
:Piston Pump – the high-pressure seal reciprocates with the piston and slides though a smooth-bore cylinder
  
:Agreed, again. --[[User:Singkong2005|Singkong2005]] &middot; <small>[[User talk:Singkong2005|talk]]</small> 15:05, 13 December 2006 (PST)
+
:Plunger Pump – the high-pressure seal is stationary and a smooth cylindrical plunger slides though the seal
 +
</blockquote>  
 +
:- more details [http://www.catpumps.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=31 here].
  
On a different note, the site is really rocking.  Users and hits and pages are all growing nicely.  Lots of infrastructure looks pretty good.  (The topic stuff has been bugging me for a long time, hence my recent focus.)  Hopefully WC submission causes some big boost. --[[User:Curtbeckmann|CurtB]] 06:41, 13 December 2006 (PST)
+
::Indeed useful, but not sure whether all piston pumps have a "uniflow" and all plunger pumps have a "direct flow design" (http://www.catpumps.com/pumps-how-they-work-piston-plunger-sf-flushed.html). For example do piston pumps exist that also have a seperate inlet and outlet (and vice versa). I'm thus no sure how I need to alter my Piston_VS_Plunger_Pump.png
  
:Yep - I'm excited about it. Your work and enthusiasm has been a big part of this growth - kudos. --[[User:Singkong2005|Singkong2005]] &middot; <small>[[User talk:Singkong2005|talk]]</small> 15:05, 13 December 2006 (PST)
+
::Regarding th Piston_pump.png, I'm not quite sure whether the water flows trough the valve or around it (nor exactly how it works). I thus need a little help figuring out how I need to color the image (and or add any parts to it).
::Thank you and serious kudos are due to you as well. Lonny deserves it, perhaps more because a lot of his work doesn't show up on "recent changes".  I'm thinking of some promotional stuff (which we both do, of course) but also all the analytics.  But, hey, founders aren't supposed to need encouragement, right?  In addition to the earlybirds, I'm very impressed with several new users really kicking butt. 
+
::One cool thing is how the natural interests tend to overlap somewhat, but not too much, which leads to pretty good coverage.  For example, you invest way more in templates, which I benefit from though I'm more passive there.  O would say I fuss more about strategic (wonder what's gonna happen with Mission/Vision?), which probably has some benefits, but you can't spend your whole life there :-)  Hope the WC thing comes through. I kinda wish I'd added something like a cover letter, saying stuff that we didn't want published, but which nevertheless justified the new article.  I'm thinking "look, those other wikis have pretty much died...; look at the stats and you can see that Appropedia is doing the hockey stick thing and the concept can really leap with a bit of awareness"  I've been pondering sending a followup with that basic content. What the hey, there are real humans reading this stuff and making decisions... --[[User:Curtbeckmann|CurtB]] 16:44, 14 December 2006 (PST)
+
  
==Living space, culture==
+
:The basic point confirmed [http://www.pumped101.com/recip.pdf here] (PDF). Hope that helps.
 +
 
 +
:Re public domain: I think it needs to be simply modified so that it's "different". How to define that is hard. The same idea rearranged a bit and some different wording is okay, I believe. And in the case of the FAO, I don't expect them to cause big problems - at worst we'd have to do some more rewording.
 +
 
 +
--[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 17:06, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:Update --> http://www.appropedia.org/File:Plunger_pump_with_AT_valve.png needs to be removed
 +
:Update --> finished up on everything, also ported images to wikipedia
 +
 
 +
==Recategorisation==
 +
Hey Chris,
 +
I implemented my main recategorisation as noted earlier (see http://www.appropedia.org/Appropedia:CategoryTree). I however still need to move all the articles under the "Water" and "Food and agriculture" category to respecively the "Water harvesting" and the "Food production, processing and storage" category (Healthcare already finished). These new categories are needed as the water category is still used/mistaken to include sanitation (moved to healthcare) and "Food and agriculture" doesn't make it clear that several actions are included in this category (production, processing, storage; subsections can be made later-on) and the "Agriculture" part is redundant and again also refers to activities that are unsustainable (eg cattle breeding, ...)
 +
 
 +
Is it possible to program the Chriswaterguy's bot to change the category links of the articles automatically for these new categories ?
 +
 
 +
Kristof
 +
 
 +
:Answered at [[User talk:KVDP#Emergency management and healthcare]].
 +
 
 +
:Btw <nowiki>--~~~~</nowiki> creates a signature. There's a button on the edit bar (left of the horizontal line button) that does it too. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 16:22, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::Added some replies at the same article. Also take a look at the Village Pump regarding the categorisation for the Wind Power/Energy category. (at the bottom)
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 12:39, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
== Hi Chris, this is George ==
 +
Sorry to pester you again. In order to maintain the neatness of this page, I have placed the material for your kind attention in [[Talk:Diabetes_mellitus_cured#HIS_mail| my talk page]]. Please read it and as usual extend a helping hand to clarify things. [[User: Georgedappilly|Georgedappilly]].<small>[[ Talk:Diabetes_mellitus_cured|talk]]</small> [[User:Georgedappilly|Shooter]] 07:37, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
== Just responded ==
 +
 
 +
Just responded to your comment on my user page[[User:Joe Raftery|Joe Raftery]] 16:08, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
== breathe; ==
 +
 
 +
yes sir; plus more i suppose. :) [[User:Emesee|Emesee]]
 +
 
 +
== compromise in advance? ==
 +
 
 +
perhaps if I create something and you would like it to be "deleted" you could move it to my userspace until it is developed furthur? ... :) [[User:Emesee|Emesee]]
 +
 
 +
:Cool, will do. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 01:31, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
==Response==
 +
Responded on my user page. Btw: also see the page talk at the Climate news page.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 08:51, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
==Google SketchUp course==
 +
Hey Chris,
 +
a few weeks ago I attended a Google sketchUp course (to learn all the remaining program-specifics). A coursebook of this is available at http://www.skup.be/syntra/sketchup/ (password:syntrup). It is in Dutch, so translation needs to be done, but as the course is given by a Dutch person (for a Dutch class), I think he will agree to give the permission for using it. As google itself (http://sketchup.google.com/intl/en/training/atc.html) doesn't provide any good courses (only some demo's, interactive video's, ...), it may be valuable (especially to distribute the AT-technologies better eg via a single, freely usable CAD-program). If there's intrest, we could have it included here. I already contacted ingenieurs zonder grenzen about it, perhaps they could lend us a hand.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 14:48, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
==Early messages regarding AT==
 +
Hey Chris,
 +
not sure whether Appropedia can use/integrate it at the moment, but I sent some messages (a long while ago) to some people working on AT. The messages can be found at [http://docs.google.com/View?id=dcwtr665_2794fsjsgp4]. Perhaps you know some people which are intrested in it.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 10:24, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
==Google Wave==
 
Hi Chris,
 
Hi Chris,
You moved "cities" and "alternative building" under "living space". I'm struggling with that because several things under "alternative building" are not living space (ovens, greenhouses, etc), and I think cities aligns a little better with "culture and development". Before getting into a reversion war (not like that's really gonna happen with us) I thought we'd have a chat.  What do you say? 
+
received your message regarding Google wave.
 +
It seems however that Google wave allows chatting even when not online in real-time. It's thus a bit hard to know when we can talk (it doesn't indicate when you are on-line, meaning I cant use it to predict when I would need to tune in for a real-time conversation. I placed a schedule for this on [[Members]].
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 10:51, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
  
:Hi Curt. Well spotted. How's "Built environment"? Still not quite right for ovens etc, but closer. Other thoughts, or do we put them both in the Topic cat? --[[User:Singkong2005|Singkong2005]] &middot; <small>[[User talk:Singkong2005|talk]]</small> 06:00, 15 December 2006 (PST)
+
It's definitely best for the asynchronous stuff, I think. I'm just experimenting for now, but I thought it could be useful for keeping track of projects and tasks.  
 +
: Hmm; I think the Appropedia user page is better used for this, I proposed to integrate a more persionalised user page (immediatelly imbeddding eg To do, AT organisation affiliation, ... ) As for simple contacting if you're stuck on a project, I think a regular instant messenger (thus not Google Wave) would be best. I would like to set this one up soon, but I'm not sure what members are still active, and there is very little cooperation on the [[Members]] page. Also, some additional site make-up would be needed; eg a the Members page would need to be easier available, ...
  
While I'm at it, I'm tempted to move "culture and development" plus "culture and community" under "culture".  There are some subcategories that seem to overlap, e.g. Male contraceptives seems to go either way.  (It's close to the "gender and development" article or category.)
+
I wanted to ask if you'd been in touch with the copyright holders of the work you're translating, re releasing under our CC-BY-SA license?
 +
: Not sure what work you're referring to; in any case I don't have anything I'm working on at the moment at Appropedia, now mostly finishing up some new images at Wikipedia.
  
:Hmmm... I don't know what to make of [[:Category:Culture and community ]], as it currently has no content - I'd be inclined to wait for the content to make decisions relating to that cat. Anyway, I'm happy if you play around with categorization. --[[User:Singkong2005|Singkong2005]] &middot; <small>[[User talk:Singkong2005|talk]]</small> 06:00, 15 December 2006 (PST)
+
Finally, regarding the anonymous page viewing, I remembered you stated that this can not be easily done in a wiki. However, do you then mean that it ''can'' be done, but that it's not easy to set up, or can't it be done at all. Regarding some other pages I'd like to make, ... I think switching off page viewing is pretty much the only solution, so we'll need it. Otherwise, we can set up a ftp-site in which a section is closed off by a password (the ftp can then also be used for swapping files that still need processing; eg pdf-files that need to be translated, or where images need to be extracted from).
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 09:10, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
  
All this stuff is a judgement call, of course.  The "right" answer for me is whatever is likely to make for easier navigation.  I don't know if you've written much software, but there is this concept of "balanced trees".  I'd love it if categories broke out nicely into 10 to 15 subcategories and/or 10 to 15 articles.  Just a few layers gets lots of content :-)  But this must be traded off against some kind of "natural" (i.e. intuitive) structure as well.
+
==Hi Chris, George here==
 +
[[Talk:Diabetes_mellitus_cured_-_George%27s_experience#Thank_you_Chris|Thank you very much for the clarification.]]
  
I think we should wrestle with this topic categorization a little aggressively now (similar to the singular/plural argument) since it will be harder later.  It'll be case by case, I expect, but that doesn't mean there's anything wrong.
+
:My pleasure! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 21:08, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
  
By the way, I noticed a category called "issues", which currently holds two articles that also appear under another category (forget at the mo').  There are also "Appropriate technology" and (empty) "Sustainable development" categories, which could easily be tucked under "issues", IMHO. 
+
== Hi Chris, this is Georgedappilly ==
  
:Good idea. --[[User:Singkong2005|Singkong2005]] &middot; <small>[[User talk:Singkong2005|talk]]</small> 06:00, 15 December 2006 (PST)
+
Thank you for directing the user attempts to get in touch with me. This is done using tablet which do not have 'tilda' character to sign.
  
I think "issues" is very interesting.  I kind of think of it as a "public policy" but that suggest government, and "policy" by itself sounds like Appropedia policy, so I come back to "issues".  I think topic has evolved into "subject", whereas "issues" may capture what Lonny was initially thinking of with Topics, i.e. discourse.  What other words could be used for an "issues" category (which may deserve listing on the nav page)?  Maybe "debate", "rhetoric", "opinion", "controversy", "argument", "analysis".  Some combo could work well, like "Issues and analysis", or maybe "Issue discussions", or "Discussions and analysis" or "editorials" or "Op-Ed"...  Damn!  Anyway, there is a category that is not yet well developed.
+
Thank you for redirecting User:Krishnamanyam    [[User:Georgedappilly|Shooter]] ([[User talk:Georgedappilly|talk]]) 07:47, 23 February 2014 (PST)
  
:Yeah. Issues seems okay to me though, so I'm happy to leave it till as that, and change it if and when there's a light bulb moment of inspiration. --[[User:Singkong2005|Singkong2005]] &middot; <small>[[User talk:Singkong2005|talk]]</small> 06:00, 15 December 2006 (PST)
+
== Practicalities... Ekopedia - Appropedia ==
  
::I forgot to mention why I didn't like "issues" by itself. Perhaps the nuances in Australia are different than here, but "Issues" as a single word has so many meanings (like problems, possibly construed as "bugs", as well as Issues of a periodical, etc). One of the meanings is exactly the one we want, but for me, without context, that correct meaning doesn't leap out. And that's why I was tacking on another word.  As long as the new word doesn't make things worse, it seems like it can add clarity.  If none of the above work, then perhaps "Issues forum"...  Well, no rush.  There aren't many articles yet.  (Note, I will comment on the WP template talk page in a mo'.)--[[User:Curtbeckmann|CurtB]] 07:56, 15 December 2006 (PST)
+
I found back this... Is it still possible and is it the strategy we will use to import Ekopedia En on Appropedia?
  
:::As Giles said of Buffy, "I believe she is having what you Americans refer to as ''issues''." :) I'm cool with a change - I like Lonny's idea (via email) of putting theses and well thought out opinions into one category, but I don't have bright ideas on a category name. --[[User:Singkong2005|Singkong2005]] &middot; <small>[[User talk:Singkong2005|talk]]</small> 19:15, 18 December 2006 (PST)
+
''Is it possible to create robots to transfer the content from Ekopedia to Appropedia and vise-versa?
  
== I'd like to read your thesis  ==
+
What about the possible similar pages?
  
Would that be possible?
+
I am quite busy preparing a 3 month project in Israel Palestine but I am also really wishing to help so if you see anything I can do.
  
:''responded to [[User:Nardoo|Nardoo]] at [[User_talk:Nardoo]], and exchanged emails. Welcome to another EWB Australia member.''
+
And I want also let you know that I am really happy that you are building so great on my small initiative to connect you.
  
== Environmental Justice ==
+
[[User:Olivier C|Olivier C]] 11:22, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
  
Actually, The category had already existed in the list in the Category [[:Category:Topics|Topic]], and I (not fully consciously) went to create a page there. Later, I realized that maybe one wasn't needed, so I'd already started an email to Lonny about it, to say that, and to ask
+
:Transferring content is actually easy between MediaWiki sites (using [[Special:Export]] and [[Special:Import]]). I think it prompts when there are pages with the same name, but we can check that.  
if Categories necessarily needed pages to explain them?  Are they okay empty?  If not it can be deleted..
+
-[http://AToTheT.orG/ @]
+
  
:If we want to keep the category, we should create the page, even if it only contains a higher category or categories. Otherwise, when someone views the category, they'll get an edit box; also it won't fit into the category structure.  
+
:An approach I'm taking with the [[Appropedia:Stubs from Wikipedia articles]] project is to edit the exported XML file, to add '''(from Wikipedia)''' to each title.  Then after importing, we can do a mass move (by bot) to remove the suffixes - the pages that fail to move because of an existing page will still have that suffix in the pagename, and need to be merged. That looks to me like a good process to use for the Ekopedia/Appropedia wiki merges - it makes it easy to keep track of groups of pages that need merging.
  
:I'm not sure exactly what categories are best for the article, but I'm happy to let it evolve.
+
:Your initiative to connect us was wonderful, and it has come so far! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 15:28, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 +
''
  
:Cool blog. You could put the link in your signature, in preferences. Click preferences, select raw signature, and enter your new sig, e.g.
+
So exited to see the collaboration evolving and going on. [[User:Olivier C|Olivier C]] 12:25, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
  
:'''<nowiki>[[User:Ajay|Ajay]] [http://AToTheT.orG/ @]</nowiki>''' - which gives [[User:Ajay|Ajay]] [http://AToTheT.orG/ @]
+
:Hi Olivier. Yes, the export-import is still what I plan to use. Actually the challenge now is the images - I've asked for help, and am not sure when I can solve it, but should be all complete late this month, at the latest.
  
:'''<nowiki>[[User:Ajay|Ajay]] <small>[http://AToTheT.orG/ blog]</small></nowiki>''' - which gives [[User:Ajay|Ajay]] <small>[http://AToTheT.orG/ blog]</small>
+
:I found a simpler way to avoid pagename clashes for this case - I make a list of links to all the pagenames, on Appropedia. Any that is not a redlink is a clash - I'll edit the pagename in the XML file I get from Special:Export, to avoid that.  
  
:Or something like that. That'll show when you sign with four tildes, '''<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>'''. --[[User:Singkong2005|Singkong2005]] &middot; <small>[[User talk:Singkong2005|talk]]</small> 00:44, 2 January 2007 (PST)
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:Thanks for your encouragement! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 13:10, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
  
::Thanks for the prompt replies and good thoughts!  I'm kind of new to wiki'ing, as you can tell.. :)  As for the categories, I stole them (and the stubs, which of course don't exist and you definitely noticed) from the wikipedia EJ entry.  I changed the headings to Climate Change part of the Exploring section, but we'll go with this for now.  (The 'searching on google' was just the first fruits of my search, figured it would make a good starting stub..)
+
== copy right vios ==
  
:::Don't worry about being new to wikiing... you're making great contributions, and it's great to have you in our community! --[[User:Singkong2005|Singkong2005]] &middot; <small>[[User talk:Singkong2005|talk]]</small> 01:54, 2 January 2007 (PST)
+
C -- the lithium ion battery page is ok -- I believe all the images and the graphs in [[Hot-Melt Extrusion]] are violations -- I leave it up to your discretion if it is better to delete images and leave the page or pull the entire article....Thanks--[[User:J.M.Pearce|Joshua]] 18:58, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
  
==Solar thermal...==
+
==Sewerage==
Hi Chris.  I guess it was me who changed categories, but I only vaguely remember this. I actually agree with your naming preference; I think I was doing it in following the naming listed in the topics page (or something). I was just trying to push for consistency.  And it must have been early in the process when I was still optimistic that by following the topic page, I would achieve consistency.
+
Finished up on a image at wikimedia commons, uploaded here too. See [[http://www.appropedia.org/Sewage_collection]]. Has some guidelines for improving sewerage systems
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 15:40, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
  
At this point, my plan is to make another major pass through categorization, particularly topic categorization.  I'll follow Lonny's preferences. Not much consensus has developed, as far as I can tell (*sigh*), but can't just let it sit, and I know Lonny prefers what he described.  I really would like to see another area label (or 2 or 3). Also am somewhat unsettled as to what content belongs on the category page itself.  (This last issue is potentially enough to make me wait... but I doubt it.)  --[[User:Curtbeckmann|CurtB]] 07:05, 8 January 2007 (PST)
+
==Hands image==
 +
I finished up on the image modification for the new hands image. I overwrote the old image, so it bears the same name.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 13:42, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
  
:My understanding was that:
+
==Members==
:*Lonny was pretty much okay with plurals for countable nouns, but was waiting for a summary of the naming policy before giving his full support.
+
Hey Chris,
:*I was supposed to look at your proposed naming policy ([[User talk:Curtbeckmann/Category naming]]) but haven't yet. I have a partial excuse, in that I had the page as one of my Opera startup windows, to be looked at, but then had a major computer failure (HDD survived, thankfully) which distracted me... and I'm easily distracted.  
+
Updated the [[Members]] page, aldough it will still probably miss some users (I compiled list manually), it's probably already good enough to publish a link directly from the navbar, could you do this ? To complete the list, perhaps you know an automatic way (I still have the txt I used if this is helpful; used Another notepad for automatic listing).
  
:I'm also wondering whether it's possible for MediaWiki to be tweaked to allow category pages to be moved, together with their history. That would be a huge improvement, especially in these early unsettled days of categorization. I suspect Lonny has already asked this question, but I'll ask him again (and Gabe) via email.
+
In addition, I integrated the [[:Category:Members]]; this category can be used to list all the members (perhaps the Chriswaterguybot can add the templates to all the User: pages
  
:Will try and comment on [[User talk:Curtbeckmann/Category naming]] soon - feel free to prod. --[[User:Singkong2005|Singkong2005]] &middot; <small>[[User talk:Singkong2005|talk]]</small> 20:32, 8 January 2007 (PST)
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::UPDATE
::I'm curious what your main interest is in preserving history? Potentially, we can "move" the categories using cut/paste, but keep the old categories, potentially in a category called "Old categories" (with a notice template), plus put (in non-displayed comments) a pointer from the new category to the old category.  What this would do is provide a "behind the scenes" linkage to the original history. I think that very few folks are interested in the early history, so this approach might work. A thin spot occurs when someone wants to re-use a category, but that's even workable, because the history is still there, it's just confusing. So our notice template could include the original date, or some durn thing.
+
I just realise that something extra is missing: there is no differentiation between active and inactive members. I'm guessing that many (most?) members from the list have already stopped contributing and are no longer active. I'm not sure how to solve this, but it's annoying as the list gets hard to browse easily with so many inactive names. I'm not that up to date with wiki-software, but perhaps we can integrate something to fix this ? I was thinking about letting the Chriswaterguybot take out all the names that have been inactive for say, 2 months and place it on another article (thus building another list here with inactive members). This allows us to keep the data in case the member comes back after a while.
  
::Of course, this is a hell of a lot of work that wouldn't be necessary if we could move categories!  But I mention this because, knowing how swamped Gabe and Lonny are, I suspect I'm going to get busy moving categories before we even get an answer. If there's a way I can do it that gives you what you are looking for, then I'll do it that way.  --[[User:Curtbeckmann|CurtB]] 21:51, 8 January 2007 (PST)
+
Also, we'll need to notify the older members to add their contact data to the list. Perhaps with the village pump ?
  
==Blogs?==
+
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 09:32, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
Hey Chris, your user page shows the "new blog" as being the Chriswaterguy@blogspot...  Also shows the Resolution blog (which I should probably drop you from just so as not to confuse visitors).  Didn't notice LiveJournal there.  May want an update on your page.  [[User:Curtbeckmann|CurtB]] 13:04, 15 February 2007 (PST)
+
  
:Thanks! -[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] &middot; <small>[[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]</small> 14:31, 15 February 2007 (PST)
+
:I do believe that this has to be done using semantic functions in some way, which we hope to install soon. That way the list can be automatically kept up to date. The alternative (asking people to add themselves by editing a table in wiki markup) just won't work IMO.
  
==Testing pipes==
+
:I don't know how to easily distinguish between active and inactive... [[Special:Statistics]] gives a number, but not a list. I just looked and found [[mw:Extension:CurrentUsers]]- but installing a new extension is a big task, esp if there are conflicts, and we need to decide first, as a team, if this how we want to improve our ability to communicate.
Does it notice this edit? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] &middot; <small>[[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]</small> 22:42, 21 February 2007 (PST)
+
:Okay, now you've got me curious. What's this about? --[[User:Curtbeckmann|CurtB]] 06:42, 22 February 2007 (PST)
+
  
::Trying out Yahoo Pipes... will email shortly. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] &middot; <small>[[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]</small> 19:05, 22 February 2007 (PST)
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:If you know anyone who is good with PHP or Mediawiki, please point them in our direction! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 01:06, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
  
==WaterWiki==
+
:Here's an example of a MediaWiki site that can list active users: http://yomi.mobi/egate/Special:ActiveUsers - but I can't see on the [http://yomi.mobi/egate/Special:Version version page] which extension makes that possible. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 01:11, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
Yes, with respect to [http://water.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page WaterWiki] we should find ways to cooperate. The great crisis regarding water is to a great extent tied to inappropriate (or non-existent) water management. [[User:Fred Bauder|Fred Bauder]] 06:17, 9 March 2007 (PST)
+
  
== Greenlivingpedia interwiki ==
+
::Not sure whether it's helpful (I'm quite oblivious on this matter), but searching a little I found the "SocialRewarding-extension"; see http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:SocialRewarding It also seems the extension is integrated in the "Mediawiki" wiki-website (see http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Developers ) Also, perhaps you can manually connect with some wiki-wizards on IRC (see http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Developers), http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Wikiversity:List_of_custodians and perhaps via the mailing list (https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l)
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 10:33, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
  
Chris, it was good to have a chat earlier this week.  I have added Appropedia to the Interwiki table on [[Greenlivingpedia:Greenlivingpedia|Greenlivingpedia]] and put in some direct Interwikis, and added Appropedia as a sidebar link too.  Keep up the good work  --[[User:Peter Campbell|Peter Campbell]] 05:59, 15 March 2007 (PDT)
+
==Automatic welcome message==
  
:I have searched Appropedia for housing-related content and can't find much apart from the Oregon cottage article. There are no categories relating to sustainable housing yet.
+
::UPDATE
 +
We'll also need to start on the automatic welcome message and Automated user page.
 +
For the welcome message, I already prodded [[User_talk:Steven_M.]]
  
::There's [[:Category:Alternative building]] - but I think that so far we only have techniques and examples suitable for certain developing world situations, and for radical downshifters (aka sandal wearing hippies). Your focus is very welcome, but We'll have to think about how it all fits in - perhaps Alternative building should be a subcat of [[:Category:Sustainable buildings]] (while still remaining as a subcat of [[:Category:Construction and materials]])? (I was going to say [[:Category:Sustainable housing]], but we need a cat that will capture other types of building as well.)
+
For the automated user page (which would be automatically made when a new account is made; I would like to include the suggestions I made at [[Village_pump#AAI_projects]]. In practice, this means that we have this text generated at the page automatically:
  
::Btw I'd like to see a lot more on very low cost options suitable for Western countries (as well as the Majority World) e.g. [[Prefabricated buildings]], but we've got little info so far. The [[Open Architecture Network]] no doubt has or will have material like that, before long. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] &middot; <small>[[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]</small> 16:00, 16 March 2007 (PDT)
+
<nowiki>==Current Appropedia projects==
 +
# ...</nowiki>
  
:Also, I couldn't find a links page or directory. I was wondering where it would be best to add a link to Greenlivingpedia - or perhaps just the [[Greenlivingpedia:List of sustainable houses]] article. What do you think the best way to proceed is?  [[User:Peter Campbell|Peter Campbell]] 04:10, 16 March 2007 (PDT)
+
The tags can't be automatically added (different for any member); this is thus simply mentioned in the greeting (see Steven M.'s talk page). The tags themselves still need to be made however. Regarding the text in the greeting, you'll also notice the "Appropedia meeting place" entry; details on this at [[village pump#Site_reorganisation]]
  
::We should add it to the [[WikiNode]]... perhaps it should be renamed, or [[links]] should redirect there.
+
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 09:14, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
  
::I'll ask [[User:Curtbeckmann]] & [[User:Lonny]] to join this conversation. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] &middot; <small>[[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]</small> 16:00, 16 March 2007 (PDT)
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:What about the user profiles at http://www.gardenology.org/wiki/User:Chriswaterguy ? I think it's a good start.
 +
::Hmmm, personally I think too little info is given. Good thought dough on adding the personal information, indeed this was still missing on the user page. However perhaps that again this problem is best handled with the wiki-software ? We already need to implement our own name at [[Special:Preferences]], so perhaps that if we place some extra personal information (ie adress, telephone number, ...) at user:Preferences we can simply have the software show the info at the other pages aswell ? Again however, the issue of the anynomous user page viewing is lurking around the corner. This info should not be visisble for any anonymous user viewing the site. Some of the info (ie adress) is even best only shown specifically to other users that are within a AT-organisation. Requesting the adress could nonetheless be useful to facilitate eg projects of AT-organisations. Finally, I'm also guessing that the instant messenger info could be requested on the [[Special:Preferences]]-page, this info could then be automatically written into the [[Members]] table using the Chriswaterguybot (and in turn, the info can then be relayed to the inactive page when the user becomes inactive). It's becoming quite complex that way, and things will need to be set up well, but perhaps it's an option.
 +
::[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 10:46, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
 +
:::Indeed I think the wiki software is the best way to implement it, using extensions. We must get a more active tech team to work on this. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 11:06, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
 +
::::UPDATE-->I noticed that Appropedia/wikis already have a user list([[Special:ListUsers&limit=500]]). Perhaps that we can use this page as the members list by having the extra info from the User:Preferences shown here. Reason for this is that I'm not sure whether a seperate page that has a table implemeted can indeed be used for our purposes (might not be compatible)
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 09:58, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
  
:::What pops into my head is a need for clarification between the content at Appropedia, GreenLivingpedia, and [http://www.openarchitecturenetwork.org Open Architecture Network] (aka OAN, which I am personally committed to partnering with, and anyway I would not recommend competing with).  I'm pretty sure that OAN will include alternative building techniques and designs.  But probably not lifestyles.  And it appears that they are not going to include a wiki, but there's a fair chance that their partner wiki of choice could be Appropedia, if we play our cards right.  With all that, it seems a delicate act to separate out the content.  Now, I agree that Appropedia does not currently have a lot of that kind of content, but we have some content, and I believe we want that category to grow.  (And would love to integrate GLp, of course, in part to help us get the yet-to-be-achieved critical mass for explosive growth!)  I would really think that a top quality portal for GreenLiving could help focus on that....No?  Ah, well, I can hope...--[[User:Curtbeckmann|CurtB]] 21:52, 16 March 2007 (PDT)
+
::::That could be a really cool extension - perhaps you can describe it in detail as a new entry at [[Appropedia:Site_development/Desired_features]]. But first have a search on the web (esp mediawiki.org) to see if anyone has tried doing it already. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 14:53, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
  
::::OAN seems more for professional architects & designers, submitting completed designs; it includes ratings and social networking. It's less suitable for collaboration than is a wiki.  
+
:We could add welcome messages for new users by running a bot periodically. I'd be interested if we could learn how to do it automatically.
  
::::[[Greenlivingpedia:|Greenlivingpedia]] and Appropedia I think would do best by merging, once we deal with very valid concerns expressed by Peter during a phone conversation., particularly that our front page looks more like a site for alternative technology buffs, rather than something to appeal to ordinary people who want to do something positive. IMO the solution to this has a few aspects, including:
+
:I'm not sure about "Current Appropedia projects" - many users would find it hard to specify particular projects. More (including myself, from experience) might list some pages, then forget about it for many months, so it ends up out of date. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 01:22, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
::::#Make a category for [[:Category:Sustainable building]]
+
::::#Make a category portal for [[:Category:Sustainable building]]. This could be based on Greenlivingpedia's current home page, with an additional reference to [[alternative building]]. This portal could be a "landing page" for linking our sustainability material (from other sites, and/or the main page, and/or the target of redirects such as [[sustainable housing]]). It could also be the landing page for a redirect from Greenlivingpedia, if a merger does happen at some stage.
+
::::#Modify our main page - though this depends on having content to highlight.
+
::::#If and when Peter is satisfied (along with any other fellow Greenlivingpedians with a stake in it) we can look at a merger.
+
::::#Continue to think about alternative [[Appropedia:Name|names]].
+
::::Btw, the [[Appropedia:Name|name]] page is quite out of date, so we should perhaps start it up again, throwing ideas around involving openness, collaboration, world changing, practical solutions... --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] &middot; <small>[[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]</small> 22:15, 16 March 2007 (PDT)
+
  
:::::I added some ":" :-), and I'm curious about "This portal could be a landing page for..." 
+
::Yes, I myself am about the same. However, simply the fact that you still have the list of things you still like to do makes it worthwhile. After some time, you'll notice them again and perhaps that as such, you'll still commence on them at some point. Also, having the text is useful fo others (If people leave we'll have a list what we still need to do/implement). Otherwise, if they leave the information/ideas they had leave with them.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 10:46, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
  
::::::Thanks - I was being absentminded again... --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] &middot; <small>[[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]</small> 06:27, 17 March 2007 (PDT)
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:UPDATE: Perhaps it is useful to also make a {{Appropedia CAD team}} tag. We'll probably need a CAD team too in the future to draw out our ideas.
  
:::::But generally, I agree completely.  Yes, of course OAN does not provide a wiki; I tried to make that point. I see the name as much less of a barrier. I think we could also keep the name and also use new names with redirects to Excellent Portals, as suggested above. So, improve the mainpage (perhaps with an increased focus on sustainability with or without AT), add good portals, use other good names with redirects. And more. Peter is in a good bargaining position :-) And anyway he probably has good perspective and ideas. --[[User:Curtbeckmann|CurtB]] 22:25, 16 March 2007 (PDT)
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::I don't know much about CAD, but certainly I'd like to support any tool that helps with design. I'm sure the [http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing Open Manufacturing] people would know something about these things. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 13:26, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
  
==Note from George==
+
::Probably, but this seems to be more about c&c, rapid prototyping etc. I would like to keep it simple at first; ie simply making regular CAD or SKP files using Google SketchUp. I also have the (Dutch) manual we can use as (basic) support for new members to this group. The CAD-models are useful for posting on blogs, wikipedia, ... aswell as when we wish to sent mails to companies that would actually be intrested in the designs/ideas. The c&c stuff is something we don't really need to get into, this can be handled by the companies.
Hi Chris, This is Georgedappilly. Saw the talk page opened for me. Thank you very much. No problem in changing the name GEM Technology to G E M Method or G E M Method for mosquito control. Please tell me how to do that & where all? I had entered similar text in [[User:Georgedappilly]] talk page also.
+
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 15:38, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
  
== Sustainable-IT @ Wikia ==
+
== copy right ==
  
Hi Chris, I'm amenable to a merge of http://sustainableit.wikia.com/ with Appropedia, probably after I've taken some time to gauge interest from my various contacts, etc. I'm impressed by Appropedia, but desire a more commercial and technical angle for attracting contributors to Sustainable-IT, including the potential for protected papers, specs and other material.  BTW, I'm located in Sydney. [[User:Dhart|Dhart]] 20:45, 27 March 2007 (PDT)
+
Thanks Chris -- I should have had that in the project description -- it will be there next time -- Thanks --[[User:J.M.Pearce|Joshua]] 15:19, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
:Very cool! A more commercial and technical angle would certainly be welcome on Appropedia - we have had some input at [[Sun Frost energy efficient shower]] and probably elsewhere as well, but more would be great.
+
  
:[[User:Peter Campbell|Peter Campbell]] has made [[User talk:Peter Campbell|comments]] about appealing to less hippie/geeky people, which I think are spot on and am taking seriously re the logo, main page and multiple landing pages. Other suggestions along that line are most welcome. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] &middot; <small>[[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]</small> 21:00, 27 March 2007 (PDT)
+
==Rfd==
 +
Hey Chris,
 +
The mysterious Guyonthesubway (which has been a driving force in removing allot of my articles) again posted another of my articles for deletion. See [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Green_tuning] . Could you place your vote on the page ? Perhaps there are any other people at appropedia too that could add their vote ? Thanks.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 15:33, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
  
==Relationship with solaroven wiki?==
+
I left a comment - agree it should be kept. To avoid problems, be very careful to avoid neologisms. That invites the wrong kind of attention! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 06:22, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
  
I'm glad hexayurt found a home in your place.
+
==Blog==
 +
Hey Chris,
 +
I sent a blog writing request to your google emailadress (singkong). Did the same to Curt, please accept the [http://www.invitationstyles.com/ invitation]. The idea is not to have you write my blog (since you stated you didn't have time), but only to set up things to move the blog to another account and to have several writers that can edit the blog when finished. See http://www.google.com/support/blogger/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=41448 The new co-writers will then also have permission to invite new authors, ... so we can have other Appropedia members added later-on too.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 09:39, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
  
I'm sure you've seen http://solarcooking.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page right?
+
:Thanks - have accepted the request.  
  
When shall we see a conference of howtowikis?  We want them [http://www.wikisym.org/ws2006/proceedings/p19.pdf translated or co-created] into/with many languages too!  [http://www.ourculture.info/wiki.cgi?LucasBlog contact me?]
+
:Hope it's a fruitful exercise - certainly it's good to organize your ideas and invite feedback.  
== George ==
+
Hi Chris,
+
Saw Georgedappilly talk page & mails. Great! The space at the beginning of line was accidental initially but I felt HE made it. Thats why it came at the right place! Initially it was single line. Now I think let it be there. So broke it & added blank at beginning.
+
  
About the bullets, I wanted to do it but hesitated for fear of page size. Very very glad that you have done that.
+
:My own immediate plans for aid related info are to get more content for {{tlc|Principles of development}} and {{tlc|International development}}. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 13:26, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
  
Tried upload many times & failed. file is in JPEG format only. May be some problem with some options not being selected properly. Will go thru help once again & then try.
+
==Casting & file hosting==
 +
Hey Chris,
 +
I was wondering whether you already read my email regarding the ISF-images and the set-up of the file-hosting (the latter would btw also be useful for the CAD team, ...). If you decided on how we may proceed (or not; ie we could wait untill we have a better solution aswell), please sent me a reply.
  
Will give the links to my friends after uploading the pictures. I thought that would be better.
+
Regarding the aluminum recovery manual, I was thinking that we might perhaps implement some improvements. This, as trough a documentary I saw named "Mega-carrier: The construction of the USS George H.W. Bush" (showing the steelmaking at Northrop Grumman Newport News Shipyards ) I noticed that they are able to speed up the process. I dropped the "Apprentice School" a line, perhaps something might come out of this.
http://www.appropedia.org/User_talk:Georgedappilly
+
  
== From Baron ==
+
Finally, I noticed that there is already a oxyhydrogen generator design (from Dangerous laboratories) that we "might" use. See [[Alternative_ICE_fuel_generator]] (updated the page with some other info too). Offcourse the design will need to be improved a little (to make it safer, ...) but I'm guessing that if we do, and perhaps make a CAD model, we'll already have somewhat of a (extra) solution to the transport problem. We'll still need to fetch some data first dough on whether the production of oxyhydrogen is technically/economically viable using simple devices such as these. Perhaps we could sent a mail to the commercial company that has a oxyhydrogen generator (ie the Punch HHO generator, see http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Home_Generation:Hydrogen/oxyhydrogen_generator#Commercial_oxyhydrogen_generators)
  
Thanks for the Tip.
+
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 09:04, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
  
I'm not sure which route to take I'm just writing what I think should be written. [[User:Baron|Baron]] 20:44, 2 April 2007 (PDT)
+
:I'm behind in my email - give me a day or two more to respond. Thanks. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 10:59, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
  
==Appopedia==
+
== thanks ==
 +
nic... good to know.. seems pretty standard, thankfully. :)
 +
[[User:Emesee]]
  
Hi Chris, thanks for your comments, I look forward to helping contribute to appropedia. --[[User:82.9.21.14|82.9.21.14]] 00:57, 18 April 2007 (PDT)
+
==File extensions==
 +
Hey Chris,
 +
It seems that there are a few file extensions that should be supported, this to allow some files to be uploaded for use with the [[SketchUp Beginner Manual]] (see appendix 1).
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 10:33, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
  
:I'm not sure who you are, but you're welcome, and looking forward to working together! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] &middot; <small>[[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]</small> 06:44, 20 April 2007 (PDT)
+
Came across another problem: we currently do not have the Multiple images-template. This causes some problems at page 1 and 2 of the [[SketchUp Beginner Manual]]
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 11:32, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
  
::Ah, [[User:Vortexrealm|Vortexrealm]] (I only just thought to check  the IP address's contributions).  
+
:I checked [[Wikipedia:Template:Multiple image]], and it relies on parser functions (note the "#if"). We're getting help with the dev wiki - still waiting on news but really hoping to have this soon. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]]
  
::Very much look forward to your contributions - you've proven yourself a very knowledgeable and constructive contributor on Wikipedia. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] &middot; <small>[[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]</small> 05:08, 3 January 2008 (PST)
+
== funding notes ==
+
  
==George==
+
are we capturing behavioral change?
  
Hi Chris,    Thanks for the positive comment. The object on the right side of the first image is the top of a foundain pen included for size indication. This is a usual practice while photographing small objects for technicial/scientific purposes. Thought it may be helpful for some one!
+
are we tracking use patterns?
20 April 07 1410 Hrs IST
+
  
==Joshua==
+
stats and stories
Thanks Chris -- I added a bit to the industrial symbiosis definition - and you definitely hit on the right main source - problem is it is published already -- we need to get the publishing part of appropedia up and running.
+
--[[User:J.M.Pearce|Joshua]] 07:22, 25 April 2007 (PDT)
+
==George==
+
Saw the edits. It has made the page elegant. Thank you very much. I was not knowing the use of 'frame' option in image link. Was wondering how to manage the blank space adjacent to that image. You taught me now.
+
I haven't tried 'move page' yet. Have some doubts.
+
  
1. What will happen to the links to google etc? Will they get modified automatically?
+
classes and change-makers
  
2. When those who have visited this page earlier try to visit again, how will they know about the NEW name? Or will the earlier address take them here?
+
surveymonkey  - front page
  
3. Will the hits counter be reset to zero?
+
show a live active community
  
George <small>[[User talk:Georgedappilly|talk]]</small>
+
philanthropy aust - dir of foundations and trusts. - pay directory. maybe $100 for good half-day workshop on proposal writing
==George==
+
<br>Thank you for clarifications. The wiki User:Georgedappilly page is deleted by Administrator Alphachimp on 26 April 2007 CSDG 11, SPEEDY DELETION. There are some links to that page in GEMTech page. So tried creating similar page in appro in order to make the material available to users. As the page didn't come up, added the FAQA section to the main page.
+
Today again tried adding material to UserPage. It worked. Now should I move FAQA section to appro UserPage or leave it in main page? What is the preference of users & what would make the page look better?<br>
+
[[User:Georgedappilly|Shooter]] <small>[[User talk:Georgedappilly|talk]]</small>
+
08:07, 1 May 2007 (PDT)
+
  
== Another wiki - on climate change ==
+
ASIX's trust plan; ATA funding partnership
  
Chris, this may be of interest re Wikinode:
+
US foundation center - http://foundationcenter.org/ - pay directory, free guides
  
[http://www.climateandconservation.org/mediawiki/index.php?title=Main_Page www.climateandconservation.org wiki]
+
Curt: what do you need when talking to funders?
''
+
The objective of this site is to provide a gateway or portal to the scientific information that exists elsewhere on conservation of biodiversity with regard to Global Climate Change (Global Warming).''
+
--[[User:Peter Campbell|Peter Campbell]] 15:59, 6 May 2007 (PDT)
+
  
== This sounds like horshit to me. ==
+
AT netorks, agencies, CERES? google ''AT foundation''...
  
http://www.grist.org/news/maindish/2007/05/09/murdoch/
+
contact, who knows: CAT? wto toilet.
  
What do you think? [[User:Baron|Baron]] 22:00, 9 May 2007 (PDT)
+
2 hrs/d for phone calls.
==George==
+
Hi Chris,    Before moving 'GEM Technology' page one more doubt. Is 'GEM mosquito control" ok? Because, 'GEM method' does not indicate mosquito control, 'GEM method for mosquito control' seems to be large a title. Will 'GEM mosquito control' cause any contradiction or confusion? <br> [[User:Georgedappilly|Shooter]] <small>[[User talk:Georgedappilly|talk]]</small> 03:43, 13 May 2007 (PDT)
+
==George==
+
Hi Chris, You wrote:
+
  
However, a simple link to a user page or website elsewhere is acceptable, and a link to the GEM technology page might also be fine, I think. Just some info for you in case you wish to re-create your Wikipedia user page at any point.  
+
donortech.com.au & adobe site
 +
 
 +
== podcasts ==
 +
* http://theengagedconsumer.powered.com/2009/04/01/loyalt-marketing-meets-social-marketing-podcast-episode-1/
 +
* http://www.yale.edu/sustainability/JulieNewmanPodcast.mp3
 +
* http://thepersuaders.libsyn.com/index.php?post_id=536277
 +
* http://www.cchange.net/ ?
 +
* http://marketing4change.wordpress.com/
 +
* http://librivox.org/the-wealth-of-nations-book-2-and-3/
 +
* http://agroinnovations.com/index.php/en_us/multimedia/blogs/2009/11/episode-69-transition-culture-with-rob-hopkins
 +
* http://www.7gen.com/technosanity
 +
* semantic auto generated pages, or stubs
 +
 
 +
==ZumoDrive==
 +
Hey Chris,
 +
I tried out ZumoDrive, its pretty similar to Box.net, but easier to use and it provides us some extra disk space (1,2 GB, upto 1,5-1,7 upon attaining my "black belt" from the ZumoDrive dojo ,-) Anyhow, I placed the images I downloaded using Adobe Acrobat from the ISF-pdf's in this ZumoDrive. The files are downloadable using links, similar to Box.net; the links are placed on my user talk page. It will allow Appropedia members to work together on files, ... atleast to some degree (we'll still need to mail the files to 1 person which uploads the files to his Zumodrive-account; as users even within a group can't upload files themselves, they can download dough). I btw also sent you a permission mail for 1 file, but it seems that this permission mail only provides extra features to Zumodrive-users; as such its probably best to simply use/share the links.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 14:53, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:Cool, that looks handy. Also see what you think of http://openpario.net/ --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 18:49, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::Checked it out, but to me it looks more of a site for testing new pages, ... I don't think its particularly handy for quick sharing of files. The best solution would be a true FTP-server, as this allows anyone to upload files, and also provides a first connection to the root document, rather than having a link that needs to be shared for each map. These are the main flaws for the ZumoDrive-system.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 17:17, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::UPDATE I'm already uploading the ISF-images to the Appropedia articles myself, so these ZumoDrive maps will go offline soon. However, some images don't seem to be downloaded with my (older) Adobe Acrobat version, even dough it apparently worked without problems at first. So someone else will need to do the rest of the images from the pdf's. Nonetheless, much work will be finished when done (within a couple of days)~.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 16:08, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
==User image==
 +
I took notice of the statement in the Welcome message to "share a picture of yourself". Aldough I didn't notice it before, it seems you can't simply upload this to your Appropedia account (at My preferences). Not sure how we best fix this, but I'm thinking that when you integrate the template for the user page of every new user (thus at the User:... page), you may integrate a image link, ie File:IDimage.jpg; I'm thinking that the images I made, knowingly
 +
File:John Doe avatar.jpg and
 +
File:Jane Doe avatar.jpg
 +
can be used as the standard image links (perhaps the image link can be switched automatically when selecting ie Male or Female at the user preferences-tab.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 17:22, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:This is all beyond my technical ability - I think we need to find more tech help, and launch a project to try out social networking options. Until we know what larger solution we adopt, it's probably too early to tweak preferences for avatar upload.
 +
 
 +
:I'm interested to see what we can do with WordPress plug-ins or Wordpress compatible forums, which we can connect to the wiki through a single login (OpenID backend). I met a WordPress developer - I'll look for his email... --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 03:13, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::Intresting, indeed I thought about using a central database for the member information too. OpenID may be a good way, aldough I guess it's mostly used to avoid the need of making a new user for each new site, rather than the best way to share your information (for example the sharing of information is optional). Generally I thus prefer using simply Facebook, but this method offcourse doesn't allow the not needing of making a new user at new sites/wikis, ...
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 08:00, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
==Category tree image==
 +
Hey Chris,
 +
Having thought a bit on what you said about the logo on the right [[File:Appropedia logo 2009 11 2.png|thumb|right|150px|]], (ie that it could be used "in some other way"), I came up with a new idea. Perhaps that we can use the image to mark the categories; ie by adding clickable areas ("hotspots") (I've seen this being done in wiki commons charts too). The images that are now used would not be lost; instead they can simply be moved to the portal-page of the category.
 +
 
 +
:Hmmm...  I think in a page for the very technically minded, this could be interesting. Do you know the idea of different learning/communication styles, that some are more visual, some more "kinesthetic"... see the [[Learning_styles#Other models|VARK model]]. Maybe this is good for one style of learning/communicating than others, e.g. the auditory/verbal approach. I personally still like a colorful and basically simple image where any user can tell in an instant what topic the image represents. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 10:21, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
As for the hands-image, I was thinking that perhaps this could be used as the main Appropedia-logo (offcourse some visual improvements can first be added first). Perhaps I could mail Tressie for the brush-up (and not just "User talk" her like before) ?
 +
 
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 09:42, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:I think a similar issue applies here... but the best place to ask this is at the Village Pump, to see if others have similar views. My feeling though is that it will be difficult to sway the community on this one, so it may be better to put your positive energy elsewhere. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 10:21, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
=="AT certified"-logo==
 +
Having been thinking about making an image for the "nitrogen oxide IC-engine" idea, I thought (a variant of) the Red-John-Smiley-Face.png (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Red-John-Smiley-Face.png ) might be useful. The idea here was too make the idea even a bit more appealing/trendy, which could be very useful as the idea is already on the line of the more "popular technology" (ie Tesla Motors roadster, electric vehicle conversions, Fast and the Furious-like car improvements, ...). Also, if the idea could be executed, it would be likely that the first modifications would be performed in ie car tuning businesses, ... publics which are mostly easy to inspire even with a simple logo, ... Hence the idea of making a logo.
 +
 
 +
However reflecting on matters even a bit more (despite that my initial idea is already a bit far-fetched ;) ), I was thinking that rather than making only a logo for this idea, we could perhaps make a logo for all AT technology, as a way of providing a "certification". This seems useful as, as more and more appropriate technology will be coming out (which are usually very eficient and fair in pricing), traditional companies (that pursue profits) could in the future try to make profits from things we've come up with (ie designs like the Hammer mill, ...). Aldough this is not necessairily a bad thing (they can make some money if the product still provides benefit in pulling people out of poverty, ...) some companies may bend things too much, and having an ace up our sleeve to combat this (even if we don't implement it right away) might be useful.
 +
 
 +
For the certification, I find the current Red John-smiley pretty good, as the smiley holds the middle between crying of joy or of misfortune (you can't really tell, i'll explain the deeper meaning depending on whether you like the basic idea or not). I would however modify the current image or make a new one (from a video; episode "His Red Right Hand"); this as the current version is a bit off. An alternative of the image might be something like a samurai, bapu/guru (to reflect to the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushid%C5%8D Bushido], ahimsa, ... this being somewhat in line with the ethics underlying the AT-concept), or something similar.
 +
In addition to the image, we would however also need to make a database with designs that are fairly AT-specific (a bit similar to "patents"). We can then put companies next to the name that are still in line with our vision (ie that they sell it at not too great prices, make durable devices, ...) and also allow the use of our designs for non-commercial purposes (ie DIY construction, ...).
 +
 
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 13:19, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:Certification is an interesting idea... I've had an idea about certifying products as being made according to the principles of [[industrial ecology]]. It would not be suitable for Appropedia to approve or reject certain designs, IMO, but I'd like to see some "certification" done by objective criteria. Though, objective criteria will be easier for industrial ecology than for AT, since context and values are critical to AT.
 +
 
 +
:Not sure what steps to take, but will think on it. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 07:29, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::Update; made the image for zero-emissions fuels:
 +
<nowiki>[[File:ZE fuel logo.png|thumb|right|150px|ZE_fuel]]</nowiki> ''File has been deleted --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] ([[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]) 07:03, 17 January 2015 (PST)''
 +
 
 +
==Recharging batteries==
 +
done. PS: Please take notice of [[Alkaline versus rechargeable batteries]]. I added a move template (which doesn't work appearantly) containing some info. Appearantly a great deal of the article needs to be updated/rewritten (incorrect).
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 01:01, 19 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:I moved the comment to the talk page, seeing as we don't have a working {{tl|move}} template. Perhaps it's necessary to contact the contributor to that article - I don't know much about batteries. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 04:32, 19 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
==Water harvesting==
 +
Trough the text at the [[Optimized Water Catchment System]] article (left a comment), I noticed that some of my images were not available here, knowingly:
 +
* File:CatchingHillRunoffwater.jpg
 +
* File:PressurizedRooftopRainwaterHarvester.jpg
 +
* File:Rainwater harvesting system.jpg
 +
 
 +
Uploaded them for now, but I'm not sure whether they actually fit into the current Appropedia articles. They're also rather low-quality, but I recently left a image improvement request at our friends from the Wikipedia:Graphic lab. Perhaps that if new versions are made of the images, the images can be overwritten, and we can put up some links between the wikipedia Rainwater harvesting article and our articles.
 +
 
 +
:UPDATE
 +
Fred the Oyster at Wikipedia's Graphic Lab made some new versions of the images:
 +
* File:CatchingHillRunoffwater.svg
 +
* File:PressurizedRooftopRainwaterHarvester.svg
 +
* File:Rainwater harvesting system.svg
 +
 
 +
Note that as a thumb, the images are displayed very poorly (at least with me). The texts looks like graphiti/arabic text.
 +
 
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 08:34, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
===SVG's===
 +
Hi Chris,
 +
Just a small issue: Appropedia appearantly doesn't support SVG files; I noticed something like this a while ago when I posted an SVG about water harvesting (see post above), and it seems that with other SVG's, the file isn't shown at all, see http://www.appropedia.org/Category:Renewable_energy
 +
 
 +
In addition, it seems that there isn't a "move" button with categories (ie articles beginning with the name "Category:" I tried changing "[[:Category:Muscle_power]]" to [[:Category:Power from muscles]] (more suitable name, first one is strictly seen incorrect) but as I didn't see a button, I couldn't move it.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 11:59, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:SVGs: [[:File:Hand.svg]] seems to work. I did a [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?ns0=1&ns1=1&ns2=1&ns3=1&ns4=1&ns5=1&ns6=1&ns7=1&ns8=1&ns9=1&ns10=1&ns11=1&ns12=1&ns13=1&ns14=1&ns15=1&ns100=1&ns101=1&ns102=1&ns103=1&search=svg&title=Special%3ASearch&fulltext=Advanced+search&fulltext=Advanced+search search for svg]. If you can't work out where the problem is, try asking Lonny.
 +
 
 +
:Categories: Categories can't be moved - this is to prevent problems if someone fails to edit all the pages in a category to change the category tag; also because it means a lot of changes, so it's best to get consensus first. Actually, [:Category:Muscle_power]] seems ok to me, and a bit simpler. Are you sure it's incorrect? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 18:28, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
==Have a nice day==
 +
Why the fuck did you delete my article? [[User:Happy Hitch|Happy Hitch]] 00:58, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:This is not a site for bands - as I explained on your talk page. Please be civil and respect this site. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 01:23, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
==AT factories==
 +
Hey Chris,
 +
I made the article [[AT_factories]]. The idea here is to have the AT factories of the different AT-organisations work together (refer to the village pump). This might speed up building projects allot. I would however need some cooperation from the other "AT organisation liaisons" (see http://www.appropedia.org/User_talk:Steven_M.#Welcome_message_update ). I'm not sure whether some members have already been selected as liaisons however; perhaps we could make a page with a table in which the members are named for each AT-organisation.
 +
 
 +
We've had a few interns from Humboldt State University... these people aren't permanent though, usually just as long as their course lasts.
 +
 
 +
Re factories... I love the idea of indexing and mapping such sites. How people use that, and how they work together, is hard to predict, but creating the opportunity, plus people's creativity, could lead to good things. --~~
 +
 
 +
In addition, I also made a suggestion for a small new page which might be useful: see
 +
[[Talk:AT_CAD_Team]]
 +
 
 +
BTW: Did Appropedia already receive any response from the Grand Idea Studio and/or MIT's CADlab ? If not, I was thinking of sending the first one a letter but I didn't seem to find any actual postal adress for them. If we could get them cooperating with us, even by a little, we could perhaps get somewhere with the AT CAD Team.
 +
 
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 09:09, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:No news from Grand Idea Studio or MIT's CADlab yet. We do have contacts at MIT which we've been meaning to chase up... thinking about seeing if we can get a communications intern to take a lead on these things. Hmmm... (sorry, trying to juggle many things, but I'll ask around about this...) --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 10:21, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
==Hydrogen production + energy production==
 +
Hey Chris,
 +
finished up on 2 images for the wikipedia, uploaded them here aswell.
 +
File:Plant Microbial Fuel Cell.png
 +
File:Microbial electrolysis cell.png
 +
Take a look, its very useful technology, the first generates instant hydrogen, the second one generates electricity. Especially nr 2 is very useful for AT as the setup is very simple and requires very little material? Nr 1 remains to be seen, its the best method to make hydrogen but we still need to compare this gas to the other gases (ie nitrous oxide, oxyhydrogen, liquid nitrogen and so on)
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 13:38, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
PS: The changes I noted in my e-mail have been done, so that's already out of the way[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 13:38, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
==NOX Steam engines==
 +
Hey Chris,
 +
I placed a new idea regarding NOX steam engines at the village talk page (see [[Appropedia_talk:Village_pump#Nitrous_oxide_steam_engine]] . However, I'm still not sure how to proceed on this; we would actually need to look into the useability of NOX as an AT fuel aswell. However, I'm still unaware of whom we could talk to to have this sorted out.
 +
 
 +
In addition, I also had some 2 extra mails; 1 with ideas regarding solar stills, and another regarding taking over some loom designs (to Suzuki USA). I'll make these into google docs and link them to the articles; that way the template letter can be used by other appropedians to sent requests to other companies/branches (ie Suzuki Japan branch ?, ...)
 +
 
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 07:26, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:I wonder if we could engage with academics and their students, so students could do a [[Life cycle analysis]] of an idea or design such as this, as well as an assessment of whether the technology is appropriate. This can be a project for their course - [[HSU]] and [[Queens University, Kingston]] students already do these things, I believe, but we need many more. Perhaps there are educators at your university who would be interested in doing this? If you could point them to [[Portal:Service learning]], they will see the kind of work that students do, and some of the advantages of being involved.
 +
 
 +
:Let us know what responses you get to the letters.
 +
 
 +
:Thanks ---[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 11:08, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::Updated my images, now includes entire working of steam engine, ... I also made my personal variants of the images, ie which include modifications on the firebox, a very simple "valve gear" (actually simply a piece of metal with holes), ... Modified images are linked in description at wiki commons image. Also updated the main firebox image at wikipedia (original one was incorrect).
 +
BTW: I'm not engaged in any university, my personal educational background is also very modest at best. I'll now continue back on the electrical locomotive (usable for the AT Interstate traveller design) and finish up on some other ideas.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 11:30, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::Hey Chris,
 +
Finished on the electrical locomotive. Also updated the valve gear, and put down some extra info at village talk section. Regarding the letters, I'll upload the suzuki-letter, and for the other letter regarding solar stills, I just put usable info from it at [[Talk:Solar_Still#Usable_commercial_solar_stills_.3F]] .Perhaps that my last idea may be useful for a AT design ? Otherwise, we could already use the product from the company mentioned, or Zonnewater and/or improve it. Also, I'm wondering whether Hatenboer-Water (Drinking with the wind) would be mentionnable at the [[solar destillation]] page ("seawater destillation section") (it's not really AT, but perhaps the product is still comparitively quite cheap).
 +
 
 +
Now going to work on [[biofuel]]/[[biodiesel]] page
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 09:58, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
 +
:::Finished up on this one, my text at the image description will still need to be poured into the article; image at [[Biodiesel]]
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 07:49, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:I'll get started on perhaps a variation of the steam locomotive; a steam engine powered by a firebox running on solar power (concentrating solar plant). Perhaps I'll be able to make it more AT; I'll look on the plastic lenses I mentioned a while ago. --> finished up on this design, called "Solar pyramid in pit"
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 09:01, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
==Appropedia animations==
 +
Hey Chris,
 +
Having worked on the steam engine stuff, I noticed that there were allot of simple steam engine animations worked out by wikigraphists. I was thinking that we could do something similar for the Appropedia logo in the top left corner. A simple animation wouldn't require much bandwith to load, and it plays in a loop, so there's just 1 download. Also, we could recover the hands image, and update it. I was thinking of having a merging a pinion gear with the hands-image (having them spin and blurring and swapping the images as they pick up speed. This reflects the diversity of our members, aswell as the focus on simpel technology. If you like this (or if you have another suggestion), we can post a request at the wiki graphics lab (for the Appropedia page; and use image here aswell).
 +
 
 +
I was also thinking that, once we've done the more important stuff for Appropedia (ie member interaction, ...) we could possibly also make a Appropedia "intro" (ie using flash, ...) Again, I was thinking of again something with gears, ... , a bit like Celine Dion's One Heart movieclip.
 +
 
 +
==Appropedia tune==
 +
Finally, an additional idea is to have a Appropedia theme song; I was thinking of something like K'naan's Waving Flag, with heavily modified lyrics. In addition, perhaps we could have the lyric "polyphonised"; ie music reverted to a special "ringtone" scheme; like they use on cellphones. This allows use of the song on low(er)-tech imbedded electronics (cellphones, DIY electronics, ...)
 +
 
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 07:53, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:Small update: seems the "polyphonising idea" is doable, see http://www.sofotex.com/download/Multimedia/Ringtone/ However, after reconsideration, K'naan's waving flag is probably already too popular (its also used by Coca Cola in their commercials). I've been thinking about a mechanical/engine-like tune instead; perhaps the melody of Alvin & The Chipmunks (http://music.aol.com/video/witch-doctor/alvin-and-the-chipmunks/2045440 ) ? Also, aldough it's useful that the melody can be repeated in a loop (for other purposes), when used on the website, it should only play once (ie when entering the site or logging on, ...)
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 08:36, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::Interesting, new idea to me - a kind of audio branding. Something simple and pleasing to the ear, of course. It would need to be something unique and owned by Appropedia, or which we have permission to use. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 08:43, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:::yes, and that will be the result in case we morph the Chipmunks-tune. I dug a little deeper and found that the polyphone music formats will probably be too good to allow the morphing I had in mind (I did a test with a conversion to .AMR). Instead, we'll probably need to use monophone or older file formats. Possibilities are the Harmonium file format (still unsure what this is), RTTTL, RTX, and some others such as eMelody, ... (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringtone#Ring_tone_encoding_formats ). Take a look on how the encoding is done at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_Tone_Transfer_Language .
 +
 
 +
I also recombinated the chipmunks-song (the part that repeats) to an own version, which is I believe better for use here (shorter, powerful, easy to remember). The tune goes:
 +
* tu-wee tabadam dam (exclemation on "dam dam", a bit conceived after the vandenborre tune, www.vandenborre.be/ ) )
 +
* the longer version goes: tuu-wee tuu ta taa (first part original tune), inmediatelly followed by "bing bang (silence) wa-la bing bang"
 +
 
 +
I think the second part can be composed by recombinating sections using Audacity. I already have the original music, so I'll get started on this. Once finished we can convert it using a music convertor as http://convert.viloader.net/ . (depending on what filetype we use, ie RTTTL, ... it may also be possible to look at the code, so as to check whether the verses are completely the same, and to use this method for other music projects aswell, also, in case the Audacity is too difficult to worl with without experience, we can use this method to skip the cutting and pasting) After conversion, the end result would sound allot different (engine-like) and it would also be legal for use by Appropedia (own work).
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 10:56, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
Children of Shuang Shi tune (another usable tune : dabedabedabedabedabtabtaa dabedabedabedabedabtabtaa
 +
+ chipmunks them makes: too-pop-e-di-ta-bedab-tab-taa, too-pop-e-di-ta-bedab-tab-taa
 +
 
 +
::Usable software --> http://www.widisoft.com (WIDI recognition software + able MIDI editor)
 +
 
 +
==Contact==
 +
Hey Chris,
 +
 
 +
I recently contacted someone for one of our projects. However, on the question on where we are located I replied the following:
 +
 
 +
Like Wikipedia, ... Appropedia is an open organisation, having members around the world. That said, 2 of the main member "hubs" are located in the USA (Humboldt State University) and Canada (Queens University), the actual departments can be found trough http://me.queensu.ca/ and http://www.humboldt.edu/engineering/
 +
 
 +
I guess that this is fairly accurate, but I noticed that we actually don't have actual adresses on our [[Appropedia:About]] page. Perhaps you could add this information ? It adds some extra credibility to Appropedia.
 +
 
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 11:15, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:Thanks - that's a great response, but I've also asked Curt & Lonny what address we should use on the About & Contact pages. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 11:28, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
==Locomotive image voting==
 +
Hey Chris,
 +
could you put down a vk vote here --> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Inaccurate_railway_locomotive_diagrams
 +
Losing the images at wiki commons (aldough we also have duplicates) would be quite harmful for the workout of some projects at the AT CAD section.
 +
[[Special:Contributions/91.182.138.17|91.182.138.17]] 11:56, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:I don't know anything about the subject, but it seems agreed that the pictures don't represent actual locomotives... I think it's best to put effort into making suitable images based on actual existing designs, then there shouldn't be any issue with deletion. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 08:07, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::Hmmm, well the locomotives weren't authentic (ie the setup won't be completely true to how they are generally built). However, the system as how I drew it out will nonetheless work. We can perhaps improve the system later-on (ie with steam injectors, ...) Anyway, it seems like I'm getting some support, and I put down additional arguments, so perhaps that they won't be removed after all.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 08:58, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:::If it's not authentic but (by reasoning) you believe it should actually work... that sounds unsuitable for Wikipedia actually. I think it's good to listen to the concerns of the Wikipedia editors on this issue.
 +
 
 +
:::From a learning perspective as well, it's really valuable to delve deeply into things which have been built and used successfully, and fully understand them first, so doing diagrams based on authentic locomotives would be a really valuable exercise. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 21:20, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
==Image renaming==
 +
Hey Chris,
 +
perhaps a newbie question, but how exactly do I rename images at Appropedia ? I want to rename File:Plunger pump with AT valve.png , but appearantly neither the rename media, nor the db-f8 template seem to work here.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 16:00, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 +
: UPDATE
 +
made a new image, this older image can be removed (valve I designed seemed unuseful with same diameter pipes, ...)
 +
 
 +
==Schematics==
 +
Hey Chris,
 +
commented on your post at my user page. Tell me if you need any more info
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 14:21, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
BTW: I had another question: is Appropedia already registered as a non-profit ? If we would do so (ie via http://ihcenter.org/, ...) we could perhaps request funding (which we could use to implement the discussed wiki-software upgrades, ...) from ie organisations as http://www.clintonfoundation.org/what-we-do/, ... That way things could go faster.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 14:29, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:Yes we are... 501c3 (tax exempt) charity, registered in California. Curt and I are looking at funding possibilities, actually.
 +
 
 +
::Perhaps you can mention this at the About page.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 18:30, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:::Done. Thanks, didn't realize that was missing. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 04:19, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:Thanks for the clintonfoundation.org link - any relevant leads like this are valuable. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 01:16, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::Hey Chris;
 +
a new idea: I just heared of the 2010 Cancún conference, and it seems that they are going to start a fund to provide money for developing countries in order to reduce their emissions. Personally, I'm since long not a fan anymore of the whole "climate change"-debacle and the organisations designated to "fix the problem", mostly because they talk allot and provide almost no practical changes (ie "advocated" reduction of 20% where almost 100% is required). Nonetheless, as they are finally providing a seperate fund for new initiatives (there allready were some funds' ie regarding reforestation, ... but these were very well-defined) and I think that Appropedia is one of their best bets cost-effectiveness wise. This as it's centralised and many of our projects (including the 3D models of the "AT CAD Team", and general Appropedia projects/information) offer allot of environmental advantage for a very limited cost. Perhaps we can write them a mail once they got their fund set up and once a website, ... is available. See
 +
* http://www.oxfam.org.uk/get_involved/campaign/climate_change/cancun.html
 +
* http://www.physorg.com/news/2010-12-cancun-debate-climate-fund.html
 +
* http://www.climatefund.info/
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 13:35, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:Thanks Kristof. This gives me an idea - if you're interested in working with me (and anyone else interested in finding funding for Appropedia), your work in finding specific links and funders would be really helpful. You're very persistent when you work on a task, and that's very valuable with this.
 +
 
 +
:We could share a spreadsheet for keeping track all the information. Let's talk by email - will be in touch soon. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 12:11, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
==Design philosophy==
 +
Chris,
 +
Having noticed that the KISS design philosophy has been mentioned by some at Appropedia, I was thinking of adding a replacement for this along with an article. This, especially as it doesn't really give a good representation, and I also don't like the "stupid" at the end. The alternative would be [[AT CAD Team design philosophy|Durable, efficient, stoïc]]. It is however again an own creation, so I'm not sure whether I could mention it as a "general philosophy" for the AT CAD Team. However, it is already gives more info than just "appropriate technology".
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 18:30, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:I also don't really like the "stupid" at the end, but there are other versions of KISS or KIS - see [[Wikipedia:KISS principle]]. "Durable, efficient, stoïc" is different, though these are also positive attributes. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 04:24, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::well, not completely different, stoic simply replaces "simple", so it simply adds 2 other charisteristics. We can add it into the proposed [[Appropriate technology design principles]] article, see http://www.appropedia.org/Talk:AT_CAD_Team
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 08:35, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:::I've redirected [[Appropriate technology design principles]] to the existing [[Principles of appropriate technology]] - I don't know if they could be separate articles, but one can do for now.
 +
 
 +
:::: Yes its the same, so one article suffices. However, I used Appropriate technology design principles as the main name, so that in case we implement the Appropriate technology page, this can be easily added, and the distinction between the articles remains clear.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 17:56, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
--[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 08:39, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:::: Implemented the info from the talk page. Additionally, I noticed the articles you made "Appropriate technology for refugees" and "Appropriate technology for Indonesia". I think that both need rewording here. The first one describes how to respond in an emergency (when things need to be placed and get operational on the spot), so it best to call this something like "Emergency response appropriate technology" and the second one is best perhaps moved to something like "appropriate technology around the world", so that it can be mentioned with other countries. Also, it's best to give more specific info, ie exactly what technology to use, ... At this point the articles make it sound like AT is different depending on the situation, or is country-specific, which is offcourse not the case. Finally, I think it's best to have the links removed from the AT design principles page, and moved to the main "[[Appropriate technology]]" page (we don't seem to have one, only a portal with a AT projects list. We can perhaps take over the AT-page from wikipedia, I updated this for a while and it's pretty good at the moment). This would add allot of info (page still needs a little work dough to be perfect).
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 17:46, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:::::Thanks.
 +
 
 +
:::::''the second one is best perhaps moved to something like "appropriate technology around the world"'' - actually I think both are needed. The [[Appropriate technology for Indonesia]] can mention very specific facts and contacts for Indonesia.
 +
 
 +
:::::''At this point the articles make it sound like AT is different depending on the situation, or is country-specific, which is offcourse not the case.''
 +
:::::: well, yes and no. It is different depending on [[context]], though this is less about which country than about the specific situation. The article [[appropriate]] is a very basic start on this idea. So, (to be completely hypothetical), a village in Eastern Indonesia may have important similarities with a part of Ethiopia, in terms of its rainfall etc. But it may be completely different from another village only 1000 km away in Indonesia. [[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 03:01, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
 +
::::::: Yes, I was referring to the country and not the situation. However, I do think that appropriate technology also pretty much remains the same even regardless of the location. This is because we actually do keep reusing a "library" of technology, but we will pick specific technology out depending on the situation. For example, AT (aldough agreeably opinions vary on this, see the wikipedia AT-page) will never include things like gasoline-internal combustion engines, windmills and water mills keep being a prominent tool to supply in the energy needs for many projects, ... A logical consequence could be the appearance of general-purpose AT designs which are then eg modified depending on the situation, and/or AT-technology that becomes "globalised"; ie by having a good global distribution network and well-positioned factories (see [[AT-factory]] page), some AT can be made all the time, thus regardless on which material is present at a certain location (this being possible as the material is in plentiful supply at the factory anyhow)
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 14:08, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:::::''We can perhaps take over the AT-page from wikipedia,'' - Good, I've been thinking of this... I'll do this as I can import it with history (need to be an admin). Many good edits by Appropedia's criteria have been deleted, so the history could be valuable. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 03:01, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
==Costeffectiveaid-blog/Appropedia mailadress==
 +
Some time ago, I removed my admin-rights and removed my old emailadress from the costeffectiveaid-blog. Reason is that I didn't use the old one anymore and wanted to ditch it, however I already have blogs on my other mailadresses, so I can't use these anymore. I was wondering whether I could get an appropedia mail adress (ie kvdp@appropedia.org) and put the admin-ship on this one (you'll need to do this via blogger.com, since I'm no longer an admin).
 +
 
 +
:Getting an appropedia mail address would be a bit complex... is it possible to create a new address somewhere? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 05:44, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
 +
::Uhm, well I suppose I could but I don't like creating emailadresses I'm then not going to use anymore. The mailadress isn't vital for the moment, could you simply copy-paste the info at the mentioned page (log in via blogger.com).
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 12:51, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
 +
--> UPDATE how about I use your costeffectiveaid-blog "emailadress" (actually just a login name) and pass. If you change your pass to a combination you don't use for other things, this is safe, hassle-free (you already have the required permission for altering the site), and quick. Just sent me a mail with the new pass (or the current one if you already selected a unique one), and I can upload the data. (like to get this finished quick) 
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 08:00, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:Actually that's probably the most secret password I have, since it's my main account for many things. Sorry - can't really think of a solution other than making a new webmail address. Since this isn't a high security account you need, you could always make a hotmail account and save the password in your browser. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 08:08, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::OK, plan B, use <small>(email removed for spam reasons - no longer needed here --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 05:36, 23 June 2010 (UTC))</small> and give it minimum priviliges, We'll delete it when done. We'll solve the issue next time with JM Pearce, when the site begins to become useful, he can appoint a member to maintain it, and then we sent future info directly to the maintenance person via mail.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 06:52, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
 +
'''Is it thus possible to sent the invite for the blog to this e-mailadres ? (log in to blogger.com)'''
 +
:Done - sorry for the delay. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 05:36, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
 +
:: Thanks Chris, just got back from vacation. It seems though that the text which is in "extra pages" requires that I also have administrator clearance, so I'll need to ask you to again log in and give me higher clearance; I'm sorry for the hassle.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 18:49, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
 +
:::Done - no problem! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 19:07, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
Some info I want to add to http://costeffectiveaid.blogspot.com/p/environment-rehabilitation.html
 +
 
 +
'''Done'''
 +
 
 +
The connection were proposed based on maps by WN Atlas productions. I'll look further whether I can add some hydrography maps to wikimedia, perhaps by HydroSHEDS, ... The suggestions would fit together with the new boat design ([[Appropedia_talk:Village_pump#Canadian_Canoe_Museum.27s_36.27_Canot_du_Maitre|Low-cost catamaran]], replaces the Canot du Maitre). We'll still need to check what the maximum depth & width of the boats can be in the rivers, and whether locks need to be placed to avoid mixing seawater & freshwater rivers.
 +
 
 +
 
 +
==Organizational chart + Appropedia main office adress==
 +
Hey Chris,
 +
Having had some time thinking about some issues, here are some new ideas:
 +
* Firstly, I was thinking that we aren't approaching the AT village concept from the bottom-up. Rather, at present, we're looking at the most promosing villages globally to make an AT-village, and this is actually approaching the concept top-down. Perhaps that it is best that we change tactic (especially as the first tactic isn't working; ie I also sent some initial mails for information, ... and even these haven't been responded to). Rather than picking out villages, it is probably best that we look at the AT organisations we currently cooperate with (we need to compile a list of these first) and see which villages/regions they are active in; these villages can then be build out as an AT-village instead. Offcourse, progress on building the city will be slower, but then again we'll be able to construct it more efficiently (and more modular), and we can keep everything very basic (we don't really need all that much to transform a regular village to a AT-village, offcourse it also depends somewhat on the village we select (smaller cities require less improvements).
 +
 
 +
To determine the best regions, ... perhaps it would be best to use the chart I made at the [[AT factory]]s article.
 +
 
 +
:This is well away from my own focus, which is on providing general information resources, designs etc, which can be used by people around the world in their own context. Happy to encourage you to do this, though - keep me in the loop, if you get responses.
 +
 
 +
:Could you send me a copy of the mails you've been sending out? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 11:29, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
Next, I was thinking on the Appropedia's main adress; as Appropedia is already a non-profit, do we have a legal adress ? Depending on this, perhaps we could choose one of the AT-villages to base our main office in. This could give us some more credibility, and could also add speed to set up a first AT-village. The "main office" could be an adress only in name, the main research is still maintained at the universities, ...
 +
 
 +
Also, after this is done, I'll first focus on my images as requested (and I also need to do some extra updates on the stirling engines, ...) and after this, perhaps we can look again into the communication/messenger stuff. BTW have you also read my UMPC, ... suggestions (at wikiversity website). The communication would also need to be worked out not only for better collaboration between members at present, but also for possible on-site communication (ie within the village/country). I'm not quite sure whether this was clear in my original posts at the discussion page.
 +
 
 +
Finally, I'll look into the tune, and I also think it would be suitable to change the logo (ie from the hands-logo, perhaps animated). Perhaps that we can put up a discussion between the members on how we can improve it.
 +
 
 +
I'll also get started on some new articles, more soon.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 19:23, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
 
   
 
   
Sorry I didn't answer your email. I was busy all weekend, and now am getting ready to travel to Indonesia, next week. (Maybe by next year I'll get to India).  
+
UPDATE 2 --> Checking my images at wikimedia commons, it seems that 2 images of designs I made are completely incorrect (current designs can not possibly attain their objective ; these are currently posted at the article [[Watervehicle_conversion]] (2 top images). I gave them the Template:Status-Model-Failed template for now. However, this template doesn't yet exist, is it possible to request the creation of this template to the person who made the templates ? An alternative template would be  Template:Status-Design-Failed; see the [[Category_talk:Status]] page for more info. Comments why it won't work are added at talk page; with these we can update the image, or if the entire concept can't possibly work, delete the images.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 08:25, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:To recover a deleted page, including a template, you need a helpful admin. On Wikipedia, there's [[Wikipedia:Category:Wikipedia administrators who will provide copies of deleted articles]] - maybe Wikiversity has something similar, or just a friendly admin... are you able to try those approaches?
 +
 
 +
::Well, the images are already deleted on wikimedia commons, not only because they are incorrect, but also because many admins don't want any own ideas/schematics being posted there (this is btw the reason why I have so much "proposals for deletion" on my wiki commons user page; note dough that policy-wise it is not strictly forbidden at wikimedia commons, they've said to look into changing the policy rules ;) ). As such, fixing the image wouldn't help much to keep it there, but I still feel that the 2 images would be very valuable designs to have if we can improve them so that atleast there won't be much efficiency loss (since it protects the fish).
 +
 
 +
:It sounds like a really useful idea for a template. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 15:26, 2 July 2010 (UTC):
 +
 
 +
UPDATE 3 --> See [[Appropedia_talk:Village_pump#Fuel-based_energy_storage_system]]
 +
 
 +
I'll see if someone else answers this - you really need someone who understands the specific technical aspects. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 15:26, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:: The schematics of these were totally correct; there were again other objections though why they were removed; ie mostly because I showed a "domestic" system and economically-wise, hydrogen-based energy storage isn't that good and only few domestic systems exist (and they aren't used much neither). However, if you read trough my counterarguments, you'll see that the schematic was made for other another reason, and use of the system would be quite thought-trough, there would be much load-levelling. I finished up on the new schematics (they look much better than old ones, some modest changes are also made)
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 09:50, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
== AT village nutrition ==
 +
 
 +
''AT village nutrition centre & making advantage of local hierarchy''
 +
 
 +
Something I forgot to mention yesterday is whether or not it's suitable to mention the concept of a [[AT village nutrition centre]] at Appropedia's Appropriate nutrition manual (via a new article) ? The idea would facilitate the modifying of the cities' agricultural system, and would be quite modular (since the centre could help out in the planning). In addition, the centre could calculate the energy requirements per person, yielding a more accurate prediction (as mentioned before, this is useful especially if the person is larger/smaller than average, ...) Given some objections of the dietary reference values schematic at wikimedia commons (see http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jameslwoodward#Dietary_reference_values_image_and_waterwheel ), I'll also look whether its suitable to change the graph for Appropedia. Aldough most objections at wiki commons were hypocritical (main objection was the fact that I averaged out male/female graph despite that its only a guideline (PAL's change per person as their activity levels differ), and there always is some variation anyway, simply because people don't grow uniform, ...), I'm still not sure about how we best arrange the centre. Ie we could let them calculate the requirements per person using a formula, or alternatively, we could make a set of graphs so that the people in the centre simply read off the requirements from a graph. The latter however would require us to make a series of graphs (with varying PAL's and person heights).
 +
 
 +
The second idea is for a new another new article involving the taking advantage of local social hierarchies. Aldough again this may be a bit controversial, I do think that the technique may be useful to us in setting up projects (they could provide support, ...), ... and I believe that preserving the power structure may be the best option in certain cases, since the structure is already stabilised, and eliminating stability is never a good option. We should offcourse never support structures that are ethically incorrect (ie castes, ...) but certain local ethnic structures may be supported. In particular, there are eg still "kingdoms" in many parts of the world, aswell as local leaders and believes that may be used to our advantage, and which we could thus use in the intrest of our projects (which benefit the/an entire region). For example, I remember the example of Arthur Paes which demonstrated the concept (see http://www.somey.nl/pagina/king_somey/index.html ) There are also other means of tapping into the structure, ie in some countries such as Micronesia there still is matrilinear progression of power, ... and finally there are also [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult cargo cults], ... (ie Vanuatu, ...). It's just an idea, but perhaps its useful to make an article about it.
 +
 
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 10:19, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
==Solar pyramid in pit==
 +
Hey Chris,
 +
it seems that you deleted File:Solar_pyramid_in_pit_concentrating_solar_plant_2.jpg . I only requested the deletion of the png-file though (see [[User_talk:KVDP#Appropriate_living_manual]]. Is it possible to undelete the file ? I'll still need to do a small image update, which I'll get started on once the file has been reinstated.
 +
 
 +
Thanks,
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 07:38, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
Sorry - done. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 08:33, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::No problem, thanks.
 +
 
 +
::Cleaning up some more images and bringing them line with the prepositions from the admins over at commons, the File:Ship compartment purposes.jpg also needs removal; I swapped this with another image I recently uploaded.
 +
 
 +
PS: Is there a way to delete the images myself, rather than simply marking them for deletion with the db-self tag ? That way I don't need to bother you with this and things can go a bit quicker.
 +
 
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 09:51, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::Unfortunately no - don't worry, just add {{tl|delete}} or any deletion tag, as long as it's a tag that includes the [[:Category:Pages marked for deletion]]. Every few weeks at least, one of us will do a sweep and delete everything in the category. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 11:34, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
==Categorytree images==
 +
I added a new image for the energy category (looks a bit empty at the moment dough, perhaps I'll need to add a green arrow next to the yellow one?), in addition I also have following images which could be imbedded to (new?) categories:
 +
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Industry_icon.png (perhaps usable for a new category incorporating the AT factories-idea)
 +
* a requested new image for the companies-stub, see http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File_talk:Factory.svg#Smokestack may be used for the Business category. Note also that its probably best to differentiate the "Taking action" category from the "Business" category some more.
 +
 
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 12:51, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
==TTT diagram==
 +
Hey chris,
 +
just noticed that there isn't a TTT-diagram mentioned at steelmaking and the tempering of steel/iron isn't discussed, see http://www.appropedia.org/Talk:Production_of_iron_and_steel
 +
 
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 11:57, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
==Cooperation==
 +
Another wiki with whom we may merge: OS Ecology: http://www.openfarmtech.org/index.php/Main_Page
 +
They seem to have more info on farming and automating farm vehicles.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 06:54, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:Yes - actually we've made this suggestion, and our friend Vinay Gupta has urged Marcin from openfarmtech in this direction. They are thinking about it, and maybe it will happen one day, but for now they are at least making their information available as public domain, IIRC, so we can reuse as we like. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 08:26, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
Heaving read a recent intresting article in Time about the Gülen movement, I was wondering whether perhaps its wouldn't be intresting to contact them (especially as our main hubs are already schools and this seems to be working) ? Given that religion (Islam) is still a prominent feature in the schools, we could perhaps cooperate as ecology is important in Islam (aswell as in any other religion). IFEES, ... also shares this viewpoint. Also, the fact that they're one of the largest school networks around (aldough the schools aren't that connected, see time article) , and given that they operate in allof of developing countries also make them more valuable to Appropedia. Perhaps the only downside is that they do not (thoroughly) teach multiple religions, but then again for our purposes this isn't vital, and they probably already provide a liberal method of teaching Islam.
 +
 
 +
See http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1969290,00.html
 +
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%BClen_movement
 +
See http://www.guleninstitute.org/
 +
 
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 07:10, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
 
 +
==Methods of transport==
 +
--> moved this to [[Appropriate methods of transport]]
 +
 
 +
== CCAT Website & Appropedia ==
 +
 
 +
Hey Chris,
 +
 
 +
I just finished the basic layout of the [http://www.humboldt.edu/ccat/ new CCAT website] and I'm going to be working on getting actual content onto it over the next few weeks.  As part of that process, I'm going to be moving a lot of old CCAT project pages to Appropedia and then linking to Category:CCAT from our site -- as opposed to the old way, where projects were haphazardly spread across some combination of Appropedia, the CCAT site, and external student websites.  This should be a lot neater.
 +
 
 +
I'm also thinking of embedding certain project descriptions (for the most current and/or most popular projects, for example) on our site if I can figure out how to scrape Mediawiki text.  The content will be attributed to AP, naturally, and the CCAT site itself is CC-BY licensed (but the AP content will additionally retain ShareAlike obligations since those are AP's terms).  I assume this would be all right given the license, but let me know if I'm mistaken :)
 +
 
 +
One other thing I'm considering is having blog entries cross-/re-posted between the AP blog and the CCAT one whenever it makes sense, but I wanted to run that by both you and the CCAT Codirectors first.
 +
 
 +
Do you have any additional ideas of how we could make the two sites work together better for everyone?
 +
 
 +
Thank you!
 +
-[[User:Roger|Roger]] 18:30, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:Sounds excellent, Roger.
 +
 
 +
:I'll be interested to know if you find a way to scrape the text. Google has become smarter at finding the body of the text to use as snippets, and ignoring things like the site notice at the top of the page. Only one idea occurs to me, if you don't have a better way - using [[Special:Export]] you could download one or more categories, then do some search & replace with regular expressions to give you the first n characters or words from each article. A bit clunky perhaps.
 +
 
 +
:Re the blog, we could agree on tags to use that would be cross-posted, so it could be automated or semi-automated.
 +
 
 +
:I wonder about some navigation templates for CCAT on Appropedia - e.g. at the bottom of each CCAT article. A bit like how [[Wikipedia:United States Environmental Protection Agency]] there's a template ([[Wikipedia:Template:ES Government]]) which lays out the various departments, services and offices. In this case it could describe areas of focus, with highlighted projects for each.
 +
 
 +
:Will let you know if I have more ideas - anyway, it's great work. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 00:50, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
::I'll let you know what I manage to accomplish :)
 +
 
 +
::As for the navigation templates, I think certain articles and/or categories do have them on AP already.  I'll include them when appropriate.
 +
 
 +
::Thank you!
 +
::-[[User:Roger|Roger]] 00:57, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 +
:::We have the dependencies on Appropedia now to make Wikipedia-style {{Tl|Navbox}}{{w|WP:NAVBOX}} templates. The first example is {{Tl|Appropedia searches}}. We can have a navigation template corresponding to every significant category, or whatever groupings of articles make sense. See [[wikipedia:WP:CLN|Categories, lists, and navigation boxes]] for a comparison of basic navigation methods on Wikipedia, which we can duplicate here. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 22:46, 12 February 2011 (PST)
 +
 
 +
== template stub ==
 +
 
 +
Someone moved the template stub to a http://www.appropedia.org/Summary_of_Malawi%27s_appropriate_technology -- and then edited it to death -- I am not sure how to put it back easily? Any ideas?--[[User:Fixer|Fixer]] 18:35, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:Hi Fixer,
 +
:Thanks for always being so true to your name.  The best way would probably be to copy the content of the Malawi page, revert it back to the template content and then move (rename) the page back to where it belongs... then create a new Malawi page and paste the Malawi content in.  I didn't do that.  I just found the Template content from the [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=Summary_of_Malawi%27s_appropriate_technology&oldid=132147 history] and copied that over the Template page which works fine, but doesn't preserve the history of the template page.
 +
:Thank you for your awesome help! --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] 20:35, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:: Thanks, both of you, for getting on top of this.
 +
 
 +
::I think since the content of the template is very basic, we don't need to worry too much about the history. (Another more obsessive solution is to export, edit title in the xml, import, delete page and  do a partial restoration of revisions... But we can save that for  pages with more content and much more complex histories.) --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 03:53, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:::While I was there, I prettied it up a little.  --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] 09:20, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:::: Nice work! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 09:54, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
==Images==
 +
===Birdman===
 +
Finally, is there any progress on the logo ? I sent a message to Tressie a while ago, but I'm guessing she's no longer active. I had btw also had an idea about a mascotte (such as eg Tux with Linux), hereby opting for either the birdman (Tangata-Manu; http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tangata_Manu; see http://www.godchecker.com/pantheon/oceanic-mythology.php?deity=TANGATA-MANU&ds=N) or an equivalent I've seen in the Dresdener Codex (http://www.famsi.org/research/graz/dresdensis/img_page08.html third one at the top or http://www.famsi.org/research/graz/dresdensis/img_page02.html entirely at the bottom). Dough I had this idea for while now (a few years), I was reminded on it due to a NGC-documentary in the run-up to the 2012 movie. However, this idea is probably not usable for Appropedia, and also doesn't give a "positive" message. Perhaps I could use it for something else in the future.
 +
 
 +
:I see what you're doing with the logo, and yours is certainly much clearer. I haven't heard from Tressie or anyone else, but I think many people like a design which is more for aesthetics, and less clear, rather than a diagram. The diagram can be used in another way.
 +
::Indeed, it could be used for some other purpose as well, maybe to accompany the text in the CategoryTree.
 +
 
 +
::UPDATE found another useful logo, namely the image from the cover of the book "Deadly companions by Dorothy H. Crawford". Note that a Dresdener codec image seems less and less appealing; it appears that 2012 isn't the right date of the end of the world according to the Mayans, its 2200 (see wikipedia, edited text) UPDATE 2 --> I was thinking about whether we coudn't immediatelly make and image based on a 3D caracter; I was thinking about perhaps using a 3D image of Sony Pictures Animation as a basis (ie the Chicken Joe-coconut image; from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surf%27s_Up_(film) )
 +
 
 +
:::I'm not sure where we would use a chicken logo...? Relieved that the earth will not end in 2012 (just kidding). --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 12:48, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:::: Finally started and finished up on that birdman image, see http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Harbinger.png We (well I) can use it in regards to categorising the 3D models (don't ask, ... its complicated)
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 12:20, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
===Mascot===
 +
:Interesting thought about a mascot - I wonder what a suitable one might be?
 +
 
 +
:: I think I came upto something useful regarding the mascotte-idea; I was thinking about making a visual representation for "pollutors", "regular people" and non-pollutors". My first idea was to use something of a rabbits to represent non-pollutors, and S.W.I.N.E-like-pigs as pollutors (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.W.I.N.E. ). The rabbits can be based on the Duracell bunnies or the Rayman raving Rabbits bunnies (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVTo4y5e08k&feature=related and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayman_Raving_Rabbids). Duracell rabbits are thus made by PLEIX (http://www.vizworld.com/2009/09/duracell-ultra-bunnies-pleix/ )The pigs can also be based on the Certus-pigs (http://www.certus.be/filmpjes.php?clipje=3) and/or on [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyond_Good_%26_Evil_(video_game) BG&E Pey'J] The pig should wear a high hat, probably of a (light) carmine red color, and with a black band (see http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:D69KlivolQD60M:http://www.chin.gc.ca/Parks/db_images/03-00079.jpg ,but higher and more sloped). For the "regular people" I was thinking about using an image a bit of a crossover between Oddworld's Abe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oddworld) and the Simpson's Moleman. The label can be "Muggles" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muggles). Image is best composed of all 3 mascottes next to each other, with the center one (muggle) having the arms stretched next to the body.
 +
UPDATE: A alternative could be the use of a monkey (chimpansee) as the muggle image, and a monkey with a wrench (gibbon-like appearance) as the non-pollutor. For the pollutor, perhaps some monkey-features could also be added. This would present a form of evolution in the image (ie exterior images being an evolution of the center one), rather than forming a homogeneous group of caracters.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 17:27, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:::: Finished up on the monkey/persons images. See
 +
* http://www.appropedia.org/File:Types_of_persons.png
 +
* http://www.appropedia.org/File:Destroying_person.png
 +
* http://www.appropedia.org/File:Enlightened_person.png
 +
* http://www.appropedia.org/File:Oblivious_person.png
 +
 
 +
The only thing that now needs to be done is to actually use them in projects (ie on children's education, ...) To determine the children to find to what group they belong, the eco footprint method can be used. I think to remember that a carbon footprint of 0 to 2 tons of CO²-equivalent = enlightened person, some 4 tons = oblivious person, and 6+ tons = destroying person. BTW: we could also mail the groups behind the eco footprints-stuff and ask them whether they are intrested in using the images.
 +
 
 +
:Interesting... I feel that this could be a project for a children's education or activist oriented site. What do you think? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 03:16, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
 +
::Presumably that is tons (or tonnes) of CO<sub>2</sub>e{{w|Carbon dioxide equivalent}} per year. According to [http://www.terrapass.com/carbon-footprint-calculator/#air TerraPass], one round-trip flight from Sydney, Australia to Cincinnati, Ohio, US spews 7,749 lbs CO<sub>2</sub>, which gets a person more than halfway to being a "destroying person" by itself. That's before we add in emissions for food, housing, other transport, and everything else a person consumes. Since we aren't likely to stop eating, it's hard to squeeze in much flying under the 2 tons annual limit for an enlightened person. Not without a convincing [[carbon offset]] strategy. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 16:05, 3 March 2011 (PST)
 +
 
 +
:::Great - numbers! All the fluffy, [[shallow green]] talk in the media, schools and elsewhere is pointless until start to [[LCA|look at numbers]]. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 16:59, 3 March 2011 (PST)
 +
{{undent}} Without numbers it is impossible to know whether we are doing net good. For example, if someone flies from the US to Africa to set up a rural biochar project - how much biochar do they need to sequester just to offset their flight? Of course TerraPass should not report this number with four significant figures, when it's really a range of values spanning at least a factor of two or possibly more. Variables include:
 +
* Type of aircraft (newer models are more efficient than older ones; the year-to-year improvement is slow, but commercial aircraft can stay in service for four decades or more, so there can be considerable difference between the latest most efficient aircraft and old aircraft nearing the end of service. This also means that a downturn in air travel cuts emissions faster than passengers, since airlines will retire older less efficient aircraft first as they downsize their fleets. Similarly, a person's decision to stop flying will incrementally increase the retirement of old aircraft.)
 +
* Weather (wind direction and speed vary a lot at high altitude, e.g. the jet stream{{w|Jet stream}}).
 +
* Passenger load (lower load means more fuel per passenger, to move the fixed weight of the aircraft itself). However, if most passengers stay home, the lightly loaded aircraft will burn less fuel in total than it would burn with a full passenger load. Thus it's hard to know whether to count the load factor for or against the individual passenger.
 +
* Whether one agrees with the IPCC that "aviation’s total climate impact is some 2-4 times that of its direct CO<sub>2</sub> emissions alone".{{w|Aviation and the environment#Total climate effects}} If that is true, then ground travel with the same fuel efficiency per passenger mile would have less climate impact.
 +
* Fuel source (oil from tar sands has about triple the carbon footprint for refining compared to the highest grades of sweet crude). However, since the refining emissions occur at ground level, the aviation multiplier does not apply to them, so they are additive rather than multiplicative.
 +
* Passenger class (first class passengers occupy a greater fraction of the airplane than coach class passengers, thus accounting for a higher share of overall emissions).
 +
* Passenger weight (heavier passengers and luggage cause the airplane to burn more fuel than light passengers).
 +
The worst case would be something like a morbidly obese passenger flying first class on an old lightly loaded aircraft, against the jet stream, burning fuel from tar sands. If we throw in the IPCC's worst case estimate of aviation's total climate impact, the effective carbon footprint could be several times higher than the best case for the same flight. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 23:54, 3 March 2011 (PST)
 +
 
 +
===category tree images + main logo===
 +
hey Chris,
 +
added some new suggestions for replacement images for some images at the category tree. See [[Appropedia_talk:Village_pump#Logo_change]] .Also, I added another new suggestion as a replacement of the Appropedia logo. If you like any of the suggestions, we can work on them.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 11:49, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
==Biofuels==
 +
Hello Chris,
 +
Had a quick look but couldn't easily figure out how categories and subs work.  Was going to scrap vegetable oil fuel and replace with pure plant oil fuel.  Vegetable suggests part of the plant is edible and pure to distinguish from biodiesel which is a plant oil based fuel.
 +
--[[User:Darren|Darren]] 00:23, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
  
I think GEM mosquito control is a great name. And don't worry, it's always easy to move again, if necessary.
+
==Template==
 +
Hey Chris,
 +
I was wondering whether you could make a quick template for use here and also on wikipedia (upload it there too). The explaination is found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requested_templates#Template:Google_Warehouse
  
Glad to hear that you are visiting India. We will meet here. <br> GEM Technology page is moved to [[GEM mosquito control]] & [[GEM mosquito control FAQ]] page is created. All questions are given as sub-sections so that users can jump to any question skpping others. <br> I have also given  links to these pages in wikipedia user page. I do not have a home page; it is not affordable with my megre pension. <br> [[User:Georgedappilly|Shooter]] <small>[[User talk:Georgedappilly|talk]]</small>11:37, 31 May 2007 (PDT)
+
I intially requested the template there, but since they don't seem to be working on it, I like to request it to you (or alternatively someone else at Appropedia). The template should include the direct link to the model, thus not just a link to the main google warehouse site. I think it will be quite useful to get some more audience to not only my project site, but also Appropedia itself, since it links from both wikipedia, and Google warehouse.
==George==
+
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 09:04, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
  
 +
==Guide for arrivals in the developing world==
 
Hi Chris,
 
Hi Chris,
 +
Just noticed your [[Guide for arrivals in the developing world]] article. Although an article could be useful for some general advice on how to start a development project, I think that the way on how you look at it seems a bit narrow; ie you state:
  
How are you? Hope & pray fine. Its very long since I visited this page. My brother was here for further treatment. I too was hospitalised for 2 days. I was in ICCU.
+
"You've just arrived in a less developed country or community. The language is different and the culture is different - not to mention the food. You came because you want to help, but where do you start?"
  
Some time back there appeared a banner at the bottom of [[GEM_mosquito_control]] page which read 'Based on work by Chris Watkins and anonymous users'. It disturbed me a little. But I was not sure about how to ask you. I went on thinking about that. But after a few days, to my pleasent surprise found that it was modified by somebody to 'Based on work by E.M.George and Chris Watkins'. I felt very happy & that it was a Divine intervention. But unfortunately the same old banner 'Based on work by Chris Watkins and anonymous users of Appropedia' ha re-appeared. I feel you may not be aware of these developments. Could you kindly look into it.
+
To travel to most developing countries, one can not simply "pack up and leave", and extensive planning actually needs to be done beforehand to allow any development project of having any chance to succeed. Offcourse some things can't be foreseen and one will need to assess the situation and needs locally, but things like vaccinations, learning the language, assessments on durability (ie how long can you stay with a visum, for how long do you have antimalaria pills, ...) definitly needs to be done in advance (atleast up to several months before departure). Regarding the malaria problem (other diseases ie yellow fever, ... can be resolved permanently by vaccination), one would also need to foresee a permanent solution (ie growing of Artemisia annua) given that it would be too costly (even for westerners) to continue taking pharmaceuticals.
I am verymuch thankful for all the help you have extended to my efforts & hope and pray the same will continue.
+
  
By the way is it possible to get any details about those who visit the page. So far 714 visits are there!
+
I thought about making an article myself on this a while ago, but having found wikitravel back then (Travel Topics, the rest isn't that useful (mostly Lonely Planet-style "info")), I think that rather then spending time on writing everything out, it's best to simply refer to this and some wikipedia articles on etiquette, table manners, ...
[[User:Georgedappilly|Shooter]] <small>[[User talk:Georgedappilly|talk]]</small> 02:29, 22 July 2007 (PDT)
+
:answered on your talk page. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] &middot; <small>[[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]</small> 03:02, 22 July 2007 (PDT)
+
  
== Appropedia language  ==
+
Another last thing that isn't present is "when to fold" (when to cease trying to create a local development project). Some countries are simply way easier than others when trying to do a development project, and I think than rather than trying to force things and spend way more energy and money to get something started, and finally ending up with something you can't be satisfied with even if it does succeed (ie due to local social circumstances). Thus, it is then best to call it a day and try somewhere else, at another time, to avoid ending up like the frog of the story "[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scorpion_and_the_Frog The scorpion and the frog]". For example, and this will be controversial, in some/most African countries, it's pretty hard to do any project for people of another skin tone, simply because people travelling from other countries are perceived as cash cows/Santa Claus', and are thus major targets (robbings, beatings, ... are frequent methods to obtain the "cash"). Thus, due to corruption it's hard to erect any project, and even if it succeeds, one can never truly be happy living and working there. I think that Ian Hislop said it best in "Ian Hislop's Age of Do-Gooders, when he spoke of Mary Honor Crowley, and concluded her misfortunes with "in the end, you can't help anyone that doesn't want to be helped".
'''- how to share project information from non-English speaking authors'''
+
  
Subject says it all. {{Unsigned2|16:53, 24 July 2007|Mberigan}}
+
Besides a single voyage to one African country, I can't really speak for other countries, but I suspect that this kind of situation would not occur in most Asian countries, not only due to the social indoctrination, but probably also because the financial situation isn't as severe as in African countries. Hence, perhaps that it's useful to add a "development index map" to the new article, or in a new article (ie there still isn't a [[Developing countries]] article. Perhaps other data maps that can assess this could be the "Gini coefficient " (devision of wealth in a country), and another map that could be useful is the "Corruption map" (see wikipedia on the issue).
:Hi Mberigan and Chris, I made an initial reply to this great question at [[User_talk:Mberigan#Welcome_and_Language_Question|Mberigan´s talk page]]. --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] 22:24, 24 July 2007 (PDT)
+
  
== Mission Semi-Accomplished ==
+
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 10:03, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
  
 +
: UPDATE --> I might have come on a bit strong in same paragraphs, the point I tried to make though was that there is a danger in painting an overoptimistic image of things. Often, development work is more like an uphill struggle than a walk in the park, and the article should reflect that idea.
  
Hola Chriswaterguy,
+
: In addition, I also wanted to express that durable development is a 2-way transfer. This goes, not only for the general working conditions/atmosphere (which need to be suitable for both parties), but also in regards to help from the people for any project, and adaption from the people towards the development worker (regarding customs) aswell as vice versa. The latter, especially in regards to only adhering to customs that are acceptable to both parties (ie some local customs, ie towards women, minority groups, ... are unacceptable to Western standards).
I've been asking around town to see how people do their laundry- everyone told me they use a machine for the washing and hang it dry (I'm pretty sure the machines have a spin cycle.) I thought maybe I was stuck in the upper strata of Parras, talking only to the people with a little more money than the rest.
+
THEN we went out to an ejido to do some community service (painting tires with oil based paint on a playground... yummy.) I thought, okay, for sure these folks are handwashing their clothes. One of the houses nearby had a loud electric sound coming from it.  (Enter spy music...) An intense investigation ensued.  Upon closer inspection we found the source of the noise to be a brand-new looking Maytagish washing machine doin' the deed in the front yard.  Nuff said?  I'll keep asking for the remainder of my 12 days here.
+
  
On the job, Carolina --[[User:waterfaery72|waterfaery72]]
+
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 12:03, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
  
== Checking in ==
+
:Hi KVDP, thanks for your comments.
 +
 
 +
:Regarding the parts that are missing, certainly, it's just a start. I wanted to start, and hop that others would also contribute. I'm not clear that a Gini map is helpful on this page, but other ideas here are worth adding.
 +
 
 +
:I think there's a place for something specific for aid & development workers, and the kinds of issues they face. Referring them to Wikitravel and other sites is appropriate, for certain types of info.
 +
 
 +
:I agree the article must represent the struggles and the hard realities, as well as the joys and benefits when and if a project is successful; and should also give some very initial tips on what makes that difference, and point elsewhere for more learning (which it already does, to an extent). The fact that someone may just not be able to help in some places is part of the reality and deserves a mention; though an emphasis on "how to choose a location" will help to keep it positive.
 +
 
 +
:: Indeed, a section "how to choose a location" could keep things positive while still informing someone that helping is not always possible on each location. However, the name for the article you chose is "Guide for arrivals in the developing world", and it talks about (as mentioned above)
 +
 
 +
::"You've just arrived in a less developed country or community. The language is different and the culture is different - not to mention the food. You came because you want to help, but where do you start?"
 +
 
 +
::The idea here is that the article assumes there hasn't been any preperation done beforehand, nor any planning whatsoever. Thus, it's best to either change the article name to ie [[Executing a development project]], and add sections regarding planning and preperation (at home, before arriving at a specific destination country). If the article is intented on how to make the best of backpacking trip, which ends up in some kind of attempt to do a development project, the article is best fitted with the earlier proposed section (which is more negative).
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 12:55, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:2-way transfer - certainly. But as this is a guide for arrivals, I'm not sure about putting much emphasis on this, here. I'd be more keen to see ways to bring out the best in relationships with locals. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 15:50, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:: Again, I'm not sure how you would like to make the article; personally though, I would assume that there is more extensive planning beforehand (anything else usually winds up in failure, unless the backpacker is extremely capable and everything falls into place). In the latter case, we can and should assume that there is adaption by and for both parties, which facilitates things, and which, in my view is the only way a durable development can blossom.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 12:55, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:::Agreed that planning needs to be emphasized. The article needs work.
 +
:::: Can I change the name, or do you prefer another one ? The current name is too confusing tough (not really clear on what exactly the article is about)
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 09:26, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:::Adaption by and for both parties - no harm in mentioning that. It's possible to go too far and adapt to things that should be stopped (including local versions of corruption, abuses and unhygenic practices) - it's a matter of having the judgement and knowledge to know when to go with the flow and when to take a stand.
 +
 
 +
:::UPDATE 3 -->
 +
I just remembered that I allready made a similar article, in specific [[Appropriate_living_manual_TOC]] .In my view, there isn't any difference in arriving in a "less-developed country" as opposed to arriving in a "developed" country (in essence, I think people aren't really better equipped ie on regards to self-suffiency, skill, ... when you compare the 2). I can't get rid of the idea that this article is nonetheless somwhat different and appears to focus on the travel difficulties itself (ie language, vaccinations, visum, ...) rather than the development project. Once you rename and refocus the article, we could probably align the article and the manual better together (ie linking).
 +
 
 +
:I think the challenges of going to a country which is both less developed and culturally "exotic", esp for the first time, is quite different. And it seems more exotic to us, since someone coming from Asia or Africa has usually been exposed to our culture and physical environment (in an admittedly distorted form) from childhood, through TV).
 +
[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 10:33, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:: Offcourse there are challenges when embarking on a development project, or simply by going to a different country (ie for a trip). What I mean however, is that perception of both parties/cultural differences, ... do not play any role whatsoever. The main problems with starting a development project are structurally/technical in nature, and these are the same regardless on where you start the project. If you simply intent to visit a different country however, cultural differences (ie local language, history of the country, ...) will play a bigger role.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 09:26, 27 December 2010 (UTC) 
 +
 
 +
::Hi Chris I just saw that one of my articles at wikiversity is up for deletion, given that it's somewhere on the line of the issues above, I was thinking we could move the article here ? It's not yet a good article, but I guess we can make better and integrate it suitably. See http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Cheap_independent_travel
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 03:40, 1 March 2011 (PST)
 +
 
 +
I also added the Category:How tos; appearantly this is a pretty large category, falling right under "Fundamental". I'm wondering whether perhaps I can get started on a category rearrangement proposal, perhaps aided by wikisoftware allowing me to print out the current categories in a tree. That way, I could do most of the work by hand (pen & paper), and perhaps I can use wikisoftware to implement the changes, without typing everything over. I find the current categories very confusing and a hindrence to the making of new article/the expansion of Appropedia. Once we have the proposal, we can discuss it, and perhaps we can use bots to automatically change a one category name to another (so we don't need to go over everything one by one).
 +
[[User:KVDP]] 16:35, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:What do you mean by wikisoftware?
 +
:: I don't really know what's possible under mediawiki software, but there should probably atleast be something that allows to automate most of the work of the categorising; ie I assume a bot can change the articles by swapping a Category:CategoryName1 by eg Category:CategoryName2, ... I don't mind studying a printed categorytree with all the categories in appropedia and simplifying it down to a more suitable, understandble/usable categorytree. However, I'm not really looking forward to changing all of the articles (Categorynames) by hand.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 09:26, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
:Agreed that categories need more work - there are some tools to make finding and adding categories easier, e.g. HotCat, but it will take work to apply them on Appropedia. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 10:33, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
== Business category ==
  
 
Hi Chris,
 
Hi Chris,
 +
Having been working on a few articles regarding manufacturing, I made the category:Manufacturing ,and placed that under Category:Business of the CategoryTree (although I'm not sure whether "Employment" wouldn't of been a more logical division). Nonetheless, there also seems to be a category:DIY (placed this too under Business for now), that contains allot of articles and that appearantly hasn't been taken appart yet, I think it's probably best to place each article under category:Manufacturing ,and remove the DIY category/article, ...
  
Thanks for tipping me to this site, impressive! :-)  To be redundant, check out [http://www.kivapedia.org Kivapedia] for a related wiki.  Also, have you seen [http://www.theelders.org/ The Elders] site yet? I'm sure you could make quite an impact there as well! :-) Regards, [[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 07:49, 31 July 2007 (PDT)
+
Finally, there seems to be an article that contains useful info, yet isn't exactly available: see http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=Special:Search&search=glass+making+%26+coloring&go=Go It redirects to "Making", but from the search, it appearantly contained other information. Not sure whether the original article (made in 2006) is retrievable.
  
== Greetings from Mel ==
+
I'm also wondering about [[glassmaking]], I'm recently reading up on it, but given that the production requires allot of energy, specialised equipment, ... I'm not sure whether it is possible in a appropriate context. I'm thinking it's better to advocate only plastic production, and use this ie for windows, greenhouses, ...
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 14:30, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
  
Hey Chris! Typing from Herbert's office in Taipei on my last day in the city. It was great to meet you at Wikimania, and I'm looking forward to meeting the other Appropedians on IRC this Saturday. (You need to visit Boston sometime.)
+
:DIY is a popular term, and refers to the household level... I think "manufacturing" usually indicates business level production, even if only small scale.
  
If you ever stop by the Philippines, you'll have to check these folks out: http://gawadkalinga.org/ - potential great org to work with / work for / volunteer with especially for more architecture/urban-planning/community development oriented folks. In a nutshell, they work with slum communities to build their own towns (literally; the villagers rip down the tin shanties and make brick dwellings with plumbing and electricity, and a school and clinic) and help them design & implement a governance structure for their new village. It's incredible.
+
:: Yes, but DIY can mean allot of things, including repair (ie of plumbing, ...), and making small things (ie furniture) that is unsuitable to automated/small scale or large scale production. In the Do-it-yourself article there are allot of articles that can be auomated/set up in small-scale production plants, so I would nonetheless pull these apart and reorganise them in the Category:manufacturing. We could preserve a DIY category for the more artistic projects (ie plumbing repair, furniture, ... as described above)
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 12:24, 18 December 2010 (UTC) 
  
[[User:Mchua|Mchua]] 23:15, 5 August 2007 (PDT)
+
::: I'm really not sure... you could try the Village Pump. I'd want to see some support before making such a significant category change. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 11:34, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
  
== Your input needed at Wikipedia ==
+
::::I'm reluctant to post small article sections at village pump, since you told me that others get a notification mail everytime I add something. I think though that the organising of the CategoryTree is something that would actually need to be undertaken face to face on a table. That way, we can evaluate which categories are allready made, and how the reorganisation should happen (via CategoryTree and Category:Stubs) To a certain extent, I stick to what I stated at the village pump (#Site reorganisation), but offcourse there would also need to be allot subsections made, ... Also, we should look on how we can alter the current main categories; ie I allready discussed that some are best pulled apart, ie "Health and Safety", ... but as you stated, this offcourse winds up in more categories and showing these on a single screen can be difficult. Hence it would be best that such issues are discussed face to face (using printed pages and old-skool pen and paper; too my weapon of choice ;) ). I think though that the best possible categorisation is probably better handled sooner than later, since more articles are added everyday and this issue will be exponentially more difficult later-on.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 13:13, 19 December 2010 (UTC) 
  
Hello! I saw a note you left at the Wikipedia talk page for Public Health, and I think your input regarding the possible deletion of the Category:Health risks[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Health_risks] could be very helpful. If you can spare a few minutes, the discussion is taking place at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_August_1#Category:Health_risks  This discussion opened on August 1, and will probably close in the next day, so if you would like to comment time is of the essence. Regards, C. Gingold [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk/Cgingold] [[User:76.9.73.248|76.9.73.248]] 18:21, 7 August 2007 (PDT)
+
:The article had a forbidden character in the title, so I exported, edited the title, and reimported as [[Making and coloring glass]]. Thanks for finding that so I could fix it. I think I've found and fixed all but one now, and I'll fix that soon.
  
==Salam dari Indonesia==
+
:I think plastic and glass both benefit from economies of scale, and local manufacturing might involve doing things with those materials... though I think similar to what you say, that plastic is often more appropriate. It will be even more appropriate as hardy bioplastics become available and affordable, so they can last for years in use, but not centuries as rubbish. In the meantime, long-life plastics might be more appropriate - they last longer, but on the other hand, they use much more mass of plastic. Perhaps studies have been done comparing them, and I'm sure it depends on context, care taken, and which kind of plastic. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 17:03, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
Chris, have you arrived in Indonesia yet? Shoot me an email at serenity (at) gmail.com. [[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 23:09, 13 August 2007 (PDT)
+
==George==
+
  
 +
::Regarding the appropriateness of using of both plastic and glass: Yes and no. I think that for ie windows, plastics are best ''always'' used, for other uses (ie bottles, wecking jars, ...) glass may be useful too. In the latter case though, I wonder whether ie ceramics aren't a better alternative, the only disadvantage of these being that they are not transparent. But on the other hand, transparency here can simply be a gimmick; a good bottle/jar design (ie one that can be cleaned totally on the inside) might be more important here.
 +
 +
::Regarding the types of plastics; I think I allready described these in the [[Plastics recovery manual]], and basically, the more durable ones do not require more "mass of plastic"; rather they are just different types (other molecular structure). Similar to how malleable metal and hard metal are different, the atoms are simply arranged better, and are able to withstand more, it does not require more material. However, in a appropriate context, we would actually make plastics from plastic waste material, so we don't get to choose which type we want; hence if it is a softer plastic, we'll probably need to increase the thickness.
 +
 +
::-->UPDATE checked the types of plastic, allot of commont types have indeed been mentioned allready in the manual. However, there do seem to be still other types, of which most if not all are mentioned at [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic#Common_plastics_and_uses this wikipedia entry]
 +
 +
::Finally, regarding bioplastics and the environmental friendliness of regular plastics: bioplastics do degrade but then again also last allot less long, so actually with good use, non-bioplastics may be more appropriate (but not more sustainable since the plastics need to be burned if completely worn down). Although it thus still generates emissions, burning them still doesn't create ''that much'' emissions (atleast not compared to other materials; ie life cycle analysis), and in most cases, we just remelt them (which doesn't generate any emissions if I'm correct). So the basic thing we should focus on is reuse of waste plastics, an then optimal use of the regular plastics, and no littering.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 12:25, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 +
 +
:::Hmmm... a few assumptions here - some of which may be correct, but they need analysis, and a weighing of different options and viewpoints. In general a wiki page shouldn't advocate, but inform. When the information (balanced, NPOV, scientific) leads someone in a certain direction, then hopefully it's the facts themselves doing the "advocating." Thanks. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 11:34, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 +
 +
:::Re burning plastics: undesirable as it releases toxins. People burn trash regularly in Jakarta due to lack of effective garbage collection, and the smell of burning plastic is terrible. Even more problematic, perhaps, is the unburnt plastic that enters waterways, causes floods and harms water ecosystems. Re "no littering" - this is an enormous task, and as a species we're not doing well at it. My opinion of human psychology is that it's unnatural for most people to take a lot of care with details like this. Look at very traditional practices and other creatures and you'll see that "waste" is not actively collected, but falls and is processed by the ecosystem; and in practice, we're not getting closer to this "no litter" ideal, at least nowhere near fast enough. Far more promising to use materials which are fundamentally harmless. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 11:44, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
 +
 +
== Your edit to a spammed page ==
 +
 +
I was looking through [[Special:UncategorizedPages]] which led me to [[Acid Value]] which was informative in its first revision, but then [[User:83.233.30.34]] spammed it. [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=Acid_Value&diff=148239&oldid=148238 The latest edit appears to be a null edit by you], but you seem to have left the spam. I can understand your edit comment, but I don't understand leaving the spam. [[Special:Contributions/83.233.30.34]] shows some more spammed pages. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 08:31, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
 +
 +
:Thanks for spotting that - replying on your [[User talk:Teratornis #Spammed pages|talk page]]. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 11:06, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
 +
 +
== volunteering? ==
 +
 +
Hello,
 +
 +
I was wondering if there's anything technical I can help out with. I'm a CS major and I've done some tinkering with mediawiki before, though not specifically with bots. Is there a list of technical things that need to be done somewhere?
 +
 +
[[User:Tahnok|Tahnok]] 17:35, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
 +
:[[Appropedia:Site development/priorities]] looks like a place to start, while you're waiting for definitive answers from Chris. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 04:16, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
 +
 +
::I've replied on Tahnok's talk page, but that is indeed a good place to start - thanks for the reminder. (One thing we need to do is organize our to-dos... which we'll be much more motivated to do with help from good tech people including Tahnok.)  . --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 22:00, 6 January 2011 (PST)
 +
:::Appropedia might have enough project and help pages to justify an Editor's index to Appropedia, separate from an index of Appropedia's article content. [[User:Teratornis/Tasks#Other index pages|I'm mulling that over in my notes]]. From what I've seen, it seems the Appropedia inner circle wants to have a stand-alone set of project and help pages, to minimize referrals to Wikipedia's internal documentation. Vibrant non-Wikimedia wikis like Wowpedia maintain their own fairly comprehensive help systems (but check out [http://www.wowpedia.org/Help:Contents/Complete_list Wowpedia's to-do list] - sound familiar?). It's kind of alarming to see all the brainpower being squandered on game wikis. In the meantime, the Keeling Curve keeps ticking up. We may render the biosphere inhospitable to humans, but at least we'll know all about computer games. Imagine if everyone who had a technical interest would apply it to figuring out how to stop burning fossil fuels. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 21:39, 17 January 2011 (PST)
 +
 +
::::Editor's index sounds good. Re our project pages, I've done a lot of the work there, partly as a way of thinking things through and putting forward a suggested way forward. I feel uneasy with adopting a policy and running with it without an open discussion about it, but if I've made a project page, I feel that it's then a negotiable thing - anyone who doesn't like it can see the reasoning, and edit or comment there as they wish. I don't know if people actually read that stuff though. (There have been a few page views, so I guess some have.)
 +
 +
::::I'd love to see people get engaged and stay engaged. The reality is about getting and keeping people's attention, and giving people some kind of good feeling... television is great at doing that, but doesn't achieve much for the planet. Developing the community and conversations might help, so I'm keen for us to get our forum set up (very soon now), and a newsletter at some point.
 +
 +
::::Of course I could get into human nature, but I'll be happy just to engage with the kinds of people who are interested in these things. Even there we need to do something to keep them engaged, I think. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 06:36, 18 January 2011 (PST)
 +
 +
== Soft redirects ==
 +
 +
I added some supporting pages for the {{Tl|Soft redirect}} template you created:
 +
* [[:Category:Soft redirects]]{{w|Category:Soft redirects}} - the template automatically categorizes its transcluding page to here how
 +
* [[Appropedia:Soft redirect]]{{w|Wikipedia:Soft redirect}}
 +
The guideline page is stubby at the moment. Feel free to expand it. I hope this wasn't too aggressive. I've been going through [[Special:UncategorizedPages]] and trying to categorize everything. That led me to the soft redirect page you created, so I thought it would be appropriate to duplicate the machinery from Wikipedia for soft redirects. This might seem like overkill, but going forward it will keep track of the soft redirects, and avoid creating new ones as uncategorized pages. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 23:27, 16 January 2011 (PST)
 +
 +
:Thanks - I knew it could do with more work, but wasn't sure about how far might be overkill, and it would have taken a while to figure out what all the code did. I knew you were working on this, so I'm happy to let you take the lead. Looks good, thanks! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 20:15, 17 January 2011 (PST)
 +
::The working principle on Wikipedia seems to be "There's no such thing as overkill." I think the incredibly elaborate infrastructure there has played a key role in enabling Wikipedia to grow to enormous size without breaking down. But it raises the difficult issue of deciding how much of the infrastructure to duplicate when setting up another wiki. My thinking is to duplicate as much as I might personally use, and then some. Making a wiki comfortable for editors who have a lot of experience on Wikipedia would be a good strategy in light of the Pareto principle.{{w|Pareto principle}} Not only do readers outnumber editors on a wiki by two or more orders of magnitude, but casual or occasional editors outnumber the handful of nerdcore editors who understand and maintain a wiki's coherency. If there are even a few experienced Wikipedia editors looking for alternative outlets{{w|WP:ALTOUT}} (to circumvent Wikipedia's self-imposed content limitations{{w|WP:NOT}}), you want to attract them to your wiki. They will arrive already knowing a lot about how the world's most successful wiki works. If they see that another wiki is missing most of the features they took for granted on Wikipedia, they might continue searching until they find a wiki more conducive to productive editing as they have learned it. This is one reason I would be cautious about departing from Wikipedia's norms in other ways, such as by using the talk pages of project pages as discussion pages. Someone who has gotten used to the idea of, for example, Wikipedia's Village pump{{w|WP:VP}} being a set of project pages that work like talk pages, while ''also'' having their own talk pages{{W|WT:VP}} where editors can have meta-discussions about the Village pump itself, might be somewhat perplexed to see that on Appropedia, the corresponding project pages are redirects to their talk pages. Not that I'm suggesting any change to the custom here, just pointing out that I don't understand it. (The other reason to be cautious about departing from Wikipedia norms is that almost everything on Wikipedia resulted from long, intense debate. Before assuming I had a better idea about how to organize something, I would first want to make sure I was fully aware of why Wikipedia wasn't doing it my way.) --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 21:05, 17 January 2011 (PST)
 +
:::If I'm getting too preachy just let me know. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 21:07, 17 January 2011 (PST)
 +
 +
== Red links ==
 +
 +
While roaming around Appropedia I saw [[Red links]], which looks like it should be in the Appropedia: namespace rather than in article space. By analogy with [[Wikipedia:Project:Red link]], I think it would be more comfortable at [[Appropedia:Red link]] (or the plural if you prefer). Since you created the page, I'd guess you had a reason to create it as an article. I was thinking about shortcutting it as [[A:RED]] but I'd only do that if it was in the project namespace (since the A: shortcut prefix should aim at the Appropedia: namespace). Let me know if you are OK with me moving the page and re-targeting [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/Redlinks&hidelinks=1 all the redirects to it]. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 10:30, 18 January 2011 (PST)
 +
 +
:I remember thinking about it and weighing it up, but can't remember my reasoning. Feel free to move it.
 +
 +
:Re the shortcuts, I've got an outstanding request to make "A:" into an alias for "Appropedia:" (which requires editing the LocalSettings file, i.e. server access). Hoping that will be applied very soon. You can make shortcuts, but later I can move them all to "Appropedia:" with my bot.
 +
 +
:I can fix all double redirects on the wiki, too (extremely easy with bot). Just ping me any time and I'll run it. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 01:41, 19 January 2011 (PST)
 +
::[[User:Teratornis/Tasks#Articles that probably should be Help: or Project: pages|I found some other pages in article space that might also need to be project pages]]. I'll look at that later. I might play around with [[mw:Manual:$wgNamespaceAliases|$wgNamespaceAliases]] on my offline wiki to see how that works. I wasn't aware of exactly what would happen to pre-existing pages whose names begin with a pseudo-namespace prefix after that prefix becomes an alias to a namespace. (Thinking about that kind of makes my head hurt.) For now I will port some templates because Lonny enabled subpages in the Template: namespace, which should let Wikipedia's complex templates work. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 01:16, 20 January 2011 (PST)
 +
 +
:::I'm cool with all those pages being moved.
 +
 +
:::Don't worry too much about what'll happen with the "A:" pages :-). I think it'll be easy-ish to move them all by bot, which of course will create redirects in the same spot, which I can delete by bot. Deletion just makes Special:Allpages a little tidier - not really a big deal.
 +
 +
:::Glad to hear about subpages - and thanks for taking a lead with this! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 00:35, 21 January 2011 (PST)
 +
 +
::::LocalSettings should be updated, thanks to Lonny - possibly by the time you read this. [[Appropedia:Sandbox#status of LocalSettings update |Check]]. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 01:01, 21 January 2011 (PST)
 +
:::::Do the red links that many of the A:-prefix shortcuts [[Appropedia:Shortcuts#List of shortcuts|have become]] mean you ran into a problem? --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 16:46, 21 January 2011 (PST)
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 +
::::::Yes. I have all the commands set up to fix things, but I need to get Lonny online at the same time. I need to turn off the alias for about 10 min while I run the bot commands. Could be a few days, sorry - I'll be traveling. Catchya. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 17:49, 21 January 2011 (PST)
 +
:::::::Thanks for the update. Given that the environmental crisis will probably take at least a century to solve, a few days shouldn't matter.{{W|WP:DEADLINE}} Have a safe trip. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 19:11, 21 January 2011 (PST)
 +
{{Undent}} The [[Appropedia:Shortcuts#List_of_shortcuts|A:-prefix shortcuts]] are still broken. Do you have any schedule for fixing them? --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 00:45, 19 February 2011 (PST)
 +
:If you don't have time to do this, it's no problem. I can assign the interns to fix the shortcuts manually, as part of a larger maintenance task (e.g. adding shortcuts to all project and help pages that lack them, as well as adding shortcuts to key sections that we allude to frequently in edit summaries.{{w|Help:Edit summary}}) The interns will learn from the repetitive nature of the exercise - repairing several dozen broken shortcuts will teach them the structure of a shortcut. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 12:45, 20 February 2011 (PST)
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::I am pretty sure Chris is on this. He had us temporarily remove the alias about 6 hours ago... I think it will be back on today.  Thanks, --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] 13:01, 20 February 2011 (PST)
 +
:::Thanks Lonny.
 +
:::Teratornis, the troublesome pages have been moved/deleted ([[Special:Contributions/ChriswaterguyBot|changes]]) and the "A:" alias should be turned on shortly. Sorry for the delay, and thanks for the reminder. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 15:42, 20 February 2011 (PST)
 +
::::Thanks. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 16:10, 20 February 2011 (PST)
 +
:::::The alias is back on - everything should be working, so if anything's not right, let me know. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 17:03, 20 February 2011 (PST)
 +
 +
== I'm gnoming ==
 +
 +
While tidying up shortcuts, I came across [[Appropedia:Gnome tasks#Shortcuts for Appropedia namespace pages]] which had earlier suggested some of the tasks I was just then doing. Great minds think alike, which helps when one great mind doesn't read what the other great mind wrote earlier. The Index of Appropedia is going to help with that, I think. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 23:51, 18 January 2011 (PST)
 +
 +
: :-) Indeed! I'm sure I've created a lot of duplication, and I lose track of pages and notes I've made, & your work is really helpful. I'd forgotten about that particular task - I think the alias (mentioned above) will help, so, say for page Appropedia:Foo, there only needs to be a redirect at "Appropedia:F", not "A:F". But yes, will be nice to have a well-organized project space! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 07:01, 19 January 2011 (PST)
 +
 +
== re: Black Soldier Fly ==
 +
 +
Yes, these are truly amazing. You must listen to the Agroinnovations podcasts where the BSFblog guy was a guest. BSFs are much more versatile than worms, but have a more complicated life cycle. This is the main impediment to implementation. The yuck factor is easily overcome once people realize all the benefits of BSFs. I have had contact with Paul Olivier who has done a lot of academic work on BSFs. He is now in Vietnam, I have linked to his company on the BSF page I made here. {{Unsigned2|14:17, 21 January 2011|Rasmus}}
 +
 +
==Recent Changes Camp Canberra 2011==
 +
Great to meet you, Chris. Hope I can learn more about Appropedia. Sincerely, James. [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] 01:08, 28 January 2011 (PST)
 +
 +
==RCCx in Sydney==
 +
Chris, let's get in touch to organise the Sydney RCC!!! I'll contact you via skype! Jutta
 +
 +
Hey Chris,
 +
Not sure if you have my email. It would be good to communicate via email re RCCx. If you don't have my email, can you send me yours via skype? I am online most days.  Quick update: I got in touch with previous Sydney WikiWednesday people and I am now looking for a suitable venue. I am also going to get in touch with the rest of the RCC people that are located in Sydney and see if they have any ideas for a good location.
 +
 +
==Water purification and BodyDim==
 
Hi Chris,
 
Hi Chris,
 +
I recently decided to give some articles at Appropedia an update after receiving a mail about the DIY water purifier schematic from someone. New articles made: [[Charcoal making]],[[Low_cost_water_filtering]], and [[Heating water]]. The last article is useful as it allows to eliminate SODIS in certain situations (SODIS is often used to reduce costs, however when using wooden containers, this problem is also solved).
  
Its me the mosquito man after a long time! I had some tough times & thats y I didnt get in touch with u & my mails. As usual my net connection is down for a long time. In between my brother's illness worsened & he passed away. I was at home village for almost a month. Afterwards I was bedridden due to back pain -not fully recovered yet. Earlier I had asked u about the banner at the bottom of [[GEM_mosquito_control]] page & you had put an action point for me. On a quick look I could not find any details in the history. Today its noticed that the banner is beyond the user editable region. It comes below the user rditable space where your admin people give details about # of visits, last modification, About Appropedia, Powered by Media Wiki logo etc. Hence I am unable to complete the action point by you for me.  
+
I also updated [[Solar_Still]]; note though that http://www.appropedia.org/File:Still1.gif is still present, and I'm not sure whether the image should be kept as how it is now (I can colour it up a bit at first), however even then I'm not sure whether a box like that won't leak. Usually, batch heaters (cilinder-like) are used; I have a 3D model we could take an image from.
  
Regarding the question on graveled water, I need more details about the surface to give a complete answer. The idea of making water body inaccessible to mosquito is in my opinion impractical as well as ineffective. Please see a relevent answer in [[GEM_mosquito_control_FAQ#Q2.]] and [[GEM_mosquito_control_FAQ#Q7.]] I am very glad about your interactions & ur interest in mosquito control. Bye4now.
+
Something more pressing is regarding body dimensions (see my article at [[Appropriate_textile_production_manual_5]] ). I think the numbers are a bit off (men/women's height is the same), and I was wondering whether you could open a program called BodyDim (see http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/download/bodydim.pdf )? Given that I don't work with Linux, I can't use it and we could use the values in the program to correct the values for the body dimensions.  
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 07:51, 15 February 2011 (PST)
  
[[User:Georgedappilly|Shooter]] <small>[[User talk:Georgedappilly|talk]]</small> 02:40, 8 September 2007 (PDT)
+
::Finished up on this, see article. Will get started on the 3D model, after that we can use the model  in our 3D models of other designs.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 05:19, 14 March 2011 (PDT)
  
==George==
+
:UPDATE
 +
It seems like I'm allready getting some help on improving my body dimension tables. I'll let you know if I still need the values from the program or not.
  
 +
Also, I replied at [[Talk:Appropriate food preparation, storage, consumption utensils]]
 +
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 02:24, 17 February 2011 (PST)
 +
 +
:UPDATE --> Reformulated text at article based on your recommendations, also made a new article ([[Industrialisation_of_local_food]]), removed Delete-template.
 +
 +
:Re [[Media:Still1.gif]] - "however even then I'm not sure whether a box like that won't leak." Are you saying that this is your own design, which you have not built? If so, this must be clearly stated wherever it is used. If it's a speculative design, then it could be on a page marked as speculative.
 +
 +
::No, look at the uploader, it's from Jaran Ellermeyer. As I understand it though, the box would probably be made DIY, hence probably from wood. However, at the seams it could probably leak easily, and if wood is used, the wood will probably soak up allot of water itself. I guess that if the box is made from plastic (using a mold), or if a plastic sheet is placed in, it will work OK.
 +
::[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 04:55, 24 February 2011 (PST)
 +
 +
:::Okay, thanks for explaining that ... we really need to get our forums up and running to discuss things like this. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 04:01, 25 February 2011 (PST)
 +
 +
:I'd like us to be very careful that for topic pages we only show designs which very carefully replicate real-world, proven designs.
 +
 +
:Thanks for your work - I'll look at those pages. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 17:33, 20 February 2011 (PST)
 +
 +
== mauve links ==
 +
 +
Hi Chris:
 +
 +
At the top of the page, it says [[red links]] are invitations for people to contribute. But the words are in blue!
 +
 +
[[Red Links]] are red.
 +
 +
[[User:DOwenWilliams|DOwenWilliams]] 19:43, 9 March 2011 (PST) David Williams
 +
 +
:Yes, because the page about red links already exists... I was wondering if that would confuse people.
 +
 +
:Is there a nice, brief way to make it clearer? I'll think about it more, and I'll ask people In Real Life if they find it confusing. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 19:47, 9 March 2011 (PST)
 +
 +
==Air filtration==
 
Hi Chris,
 
Hi Chris,
Regarding the accessability of mosquito to water below the gravel, can a sectional drawing of the site be made available? This is to see how deep is the water from top & how are the gaps between gravel bits. What is the size of gravel?   [[User:59.93.40.219|59.93.40.219]] [[User:Georgedappilly|Shooter]] <small>[[User talk:Georgedappilly|talk]]</small> 01:52, 12 September 2007 (PDT)
+
I recall you asked for an article on [[Gas filtration]] ? (http://www.appropedia.org/User_talk:KVDP#Air_filtration ) Finished up on it. I didn't find any reference to the absorption however, I am assuming that there is a difference between gas and liquid filters, absorption may be present with the latter.
 +
 
 +
:Cool - that's a good start!
 +
 
 +
:Note that the [[w:adsorption|Wikipedia article on adsorption]] starts with ''Not to be confused with absorption.'' It's another example of how confusing and crazy the English language is, that "absorption" and "adsorption" are one letter apart but have an important difference in meaning.
 +
 
 +
:Adsorption in filters doesn't seem to be covered in Wikipedia - but there are some hits [http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&q=%2Badsorption+"filters+work" here]
 +
 
 +
BTW, It seems that the current chain of events in NE-Japan have resparked the [[Nuclear energy|nuclear energy]] debate once more. I'm pleased to see that things are being looked at very objectively at Appropedia, by observing the causes in detail (Fukushima_I_nuclear_accidents#Causes). However, there is one thing you haven't mentioned: inheritly safe reactor types.
 +
 
 +
Ie in one of my previous [Appropedia_talk:Village_pump#Micro_nuclear_reactors posts], I mentioned the micro nuclear reactor idea. These made use of inheritly safe designs, some even didn't use water for cooling at all, so they also wouldn't need to be build near sea neither. Perhaps the only thing they do need is a system that prevents against earthquakes; this too can be solved, I mentioned one system that can protect against any earthquake, even upto strength 10.
 +
 
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 03:21, 17 March 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:I followed the links - interesting! I'd never heard of the Toshiba 4S micro nuclear reactor, or anything else like that. These deserve a mention in the Appropedia article. I'd want to study them much further before commenting on their safety, though.
 +
 
 +
:Whether something is "inherently safe" requires judgement and assumptions - assumptions that nothing has been forgotten in the design, and that nothing stupid or irresponsible will be done in the future. These judgements and assumptions can be wrong.
 +
 
 +
:Something that is often taken too lightly: A series of safeguards can be put in place, but it's possible (though rare) for one failure to occur after the other, all the way to disaster - see [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gare_de_Lyon_rail_accident this] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaprun_disaster this]. So I'd want all that to be kept in mind when making assessments about the safety of nuclear power. The [[Beyond Zero Emissions]] approach seems much more positive and more risk-averse to me.
 +
 
 +
:But as you note - Appropedia is a place for looking at it objectively. The risks (and the real potential for disastrous chains of events) must be noted, but there is no bias or foregone conclusion that a particular form of energy or technology is always good or bad. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 05:35, 17 March 2011 (PDT)
 +
::One issue with nuclear power is that the great mass of the general public is in no position to know whether a given nuclear power plant (for example the nearest plant to them) is safe. The public is generally not allowed into the premises to inspect the plant, the staff, and operations. Most people lack the necessary expertise anyway. So the general public simply has to trust the plant operators, and the government regulators, to maintain the highest standards without fail for the entire life cycle of the plant, from construction to decommissioning (a period of 60 or more years). During that time, the plant owners will be under constant pressure to cut corners to reduce costs. The regulators must resist all temptations to be corrupted by bribes, and must be shielded from any budget cuts or political interference that would reduce their ability to do their jobs, despite any administration changes or political shifts. Given the long life of nuclear reactors, some of the people responsible for maintaining constant adherence to the highest standards may not even be born yet. There is also the question of terrorism: we don't know whether future technological progress will favor the terrorist. There are already man-portable demolition devices capable of breaching a reactor containment ([[wikipedia:M150 Penetration Augmented Munition|M150 Penetration Augmented Munition]]), and that is a reason why nuclear power plants require many heavily armed guards.
 +
::Beyond Zero Emissions' work sounds similar to that of [[wikipedia:Mark Z. Jacobson|Mark Z. Jacobson]]. See for example:
 +
::* {{Cite journal
 +
  |first1=Mark Z.
 +
  |last1=Jacobson
 +
  |first2=M.A.
 +
  |last2=Delucchi
 +
  |url=http://www.stanford.edu/group/efmh/jacobson/Articles/I/sad1109Jaco5p.indd.pdf
 +
  |format=PDF
 +
  |title=A Path to Sustainable Energy by 2030
 +
  |journal=[[wikipedia:Scientific American|Scientific American]]
 +
  |month=November
 +
  |year=2009
 +
  |volume=301
 +
  |issue=5
 +
  |pages=58-65
 +
  |doi=10.1038/scientificamerican1109-58
 +
  |pmid=19873905
 +
}}
 +
::--[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 23:30, 27 March 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:::Very, very, very important points (to be remembered during public discussion about the safety of nuclear power). I hope they find their way into an article here :-). --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 06:40, 28 March 2011 (PDT)
 +
::::See [[wikipedia:Nuclear power debate]]. It's hard to write similar articles on Appropedia since we are missing so much of the infrastructure, such as articles to define all the topic-specific jargon terms. We can't write just one article about nuclear power and expect it to make much sense, unless:
 +
::::* we link all the jargon terms to Wikipedia articles (which is ugly), or:
 +
::::* we also write articles for all the jargon terms, i.e. we gradually duplicate the entire subset of Wikipedia which relates in any way to any topic that Appropedia covers.
 +
:::: A problem with introducing this material on Wikipedia is that it often violates [[wikipedia:WP:SYNTH]] since it is hard to find a reliable source that supports every point one wants to make, no matter how seemingly obvious. For example, the M150 device can defeat reinforced concrete bunkers similar in construction to nuclear reactor containment buildings, but unless you can find a source that specifically discusses the use of that device on nuclear reactor containment buildings, someone could challenge that on Wikipedia as a synthesis to advance a position. On Appropedia we might be less strict about requiring sources, but as Appropedia gets bigger we could start to experience more disputes over content. Wikipedia makes disputes less common by requiring sources for every statement that someone challenges, which has the effect of sharply reducing what you can write on Wikipedia. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 00:23, 29 March 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
::::: Regarding the nuclear reactors; another thing I recently read (and which after some searching on internet, seems capable of being used in small nuclear reactors ie SSTAR, see ) is thorium. I'm not sure whether it's better in regards to nuclear waste (using reprocessing the nuclear waste of plutonium/uranium can be pretty much completely cleaned up). However, certainly in regards to the weaponisation it seems allot better as it can't be used for making nuclear bombs (although I'm not sure whether perhaps dirty bombs could be still made of it). Then again, dirty bombs (not nuclear bombs) can also be made from any nuclear material and some waste material can simply be picked off from the road in allot of remote locations (ie floating under/on the sea in barrels after being dumped in the sea, waste material that simply fell off during transport to reactors, ...). I once saw some documentaries on the issue and things on this allready aren't pretty, not to mention allot of other (even much simpler) approaches terrorists could take on making allot of casualties (you really don't need an M150 or a small army and rob a working reactor). Regardless, I do think that with thorium, the issue on satefy regarding terrorism could be reduced (again as far as that's possible, since I don't think anyone would actually rob a working reactor at all). Also, since I'm mostly seeing the small reactors as for use in appropriate villages, and since the villages themselves would eliminate any breeding ground for terrorism at all (due to fair/good governance, increased wealth, ...) there shouldn't be an issue of insecurity/terrorism anywhere near the reactors' location.
 +
 
 +
The SSTAR reactor on thorium: http://www.thorium.tv/en/thorium_reactor/thorium_reactor_1.php
 +
The liquid fluoride molten salt reactor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_fluoride_thorium_reactor
 +
and http://energyfromthorium.com/
 +
 
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 07:28, 28 April 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
==Water purification and article changing==
 +
Hi Chris,
 +
 
 +
I don't have much time anymore before logging off today, but I wanted to inform you of some water purification methods using activated carbon. I placed links at the "external links" section of [[A simple water filter design]] and most important is the fact that the methods allow even portable low-cost systems and small-scale stationary systems. Note btw that the systems include more than just activated carbon, they include nano-technology; simple activated carbon wouldn't be sufficient. Finally, also note [http://news.stanford.edu/news/2010/august/nano-pure-water-083110.html Electric cotton], another process (didn't include this at article)
 +
 
 +
Another thing I noticed, by searching my older articles for things I wrote about water purification in the past is that some of my original articles gotten "corrupted" by rewrites by others. I don't mind that others add info, ... but it seems that some of my articles get so changed, that the initial meaning of the articles and how I see things get changed/distorted.
 +
 
 +
For example: at [[Appropriate_living_for_one_person]], rejoicingapathy (see http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=Appropriate_living_for_one_person&action=history ) has added ie the section "Animal_husbandry", whereas, I never advocated and even acted against the use of any animals in local food systems. See also a recent article I made: [[Growing_of_microorganisms]] (btw still need to add a word on incubators) I don't know what to do with the articles since some edits may have improved the article, yet others have definitly made it worse. I also don't know what we can do against this/monitor it.
 +
 
 +
[[User:KVDP]] 09:23, 21 March 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:Re others editing articles, this is in the nature of wikis... if they've made it definitely less accurate and less helpful, that's a problem and needs to be addressed, but engaging with those different points of view is a positive thing. That includes finding the good points and removing the bad, & asking for input from other editors.
 +
 
 +
:Re animal husbandry, I can understand your reaction, but what I'd really like is to see analysis (probably on a different topic page) of the use of animals in food systems (generally, and specific systems).
 +
 
 +
:It's the issue of ownership - if it's a general topic page, then no one person owns it. It what makes a wiki both challenging and powerful.
 +
 
 +
:Sorry I haven't had more time - I'm trying to focus on some intern/volunteer and funding work, and also doing my own personal cleanout (big giveaway of my stuff from a garage last night).  --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 19:24, 2 April 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
== Smart windows, etc. ==
 +
 
 +
Hi Chris:
 +
 
 +
I know you've already seen the little page I started yesterday called [[Smart windows]]. I hope people will find it useful.
 +
 
 +
I also made a stub for a page about [[Kim Øyhus]], the inventor of the "SunValve" smart window. He has invented several things that would be useful in the developing world. I don't know many details, but I am hoping to persuade him to post them on that page.
 +
 
 +
He is Norwegian, and his name includes the "Ø" character that is on Norwegian and Danish keyboards, but not many others. For the benefit of people who can't type that letter, please arrange for "Kim Oyhus" to redirect to his page. Thanks.
 +
 
 +
[[User:DOwenWilliams|DOwenWilliams]] 07:12, 26 March 2011 (PDT) David Williams
 +
 
 +
:No problem - thanks for your contributions! I don't get to spend as much time reading and editing as I'd like, but I like to help with some quick categorizing & other small things where I can.
 +
 
 +
:I'll make the [[Kim Oyhus]] redirect now - for future reference, I'll make a page at [[Appropedia:Redirects]] to explain how it's done :-). --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 02:01, 27 March 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
::I had connection problems starting just after I wrote the message above - but it's done now. Thanks again. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 06:10, 28 March 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:::Thanks Chris. [[User:DOwenWilliams|DOwenWilliams]] 07:21, 28 March 2011 (PDT) David Williams
 +
 
 +
==Language fluency box templates for user pages==
 +
Hi Chris,
 +
 
 +
I've seen boxes on user pages on other wikis that describe the user's language fluency. I wanted to add one of those to [[User:Kili]]'s page, and came to your page to grab the template. Surprise!  Not there.  How do you feel about these templates?  I'm biased toward all multilingual folks jumping in with that, partly as a means to help build out our non-English connections, perhaps make us more welcoming?  [[User:Curtbeckmann|CurtB]] 09:19, 16 February 2011 (PST)
 +
 
 +
:Sorry for the delay - this message somehow ended up on my user page instead of here and I didn't notice it. (MediaWiki usability issue - I'm sure the Wikimedia tech team are thinking about this.)
 +
 
 +
:I like the templates - I've got them on my WP profile: [[wikipedia:User:Chriswaterguy]].
 +
 
 +
:I'm sure Teratornis has an opinion on this, and he's more handy with templates than I am. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 17:23, 30 March 2011 (PDT)
 +
::My opinion is that these templates frighten me, at first glance anyway. The implementations on the English Wikipedia and on Wikimedia Commons are complex, with deep stacks of dependencies, categories, etc., with the added complication that the templates for various languages display text in those languages. That might make it hard for any one person to port a comprehensive set of them. (So far, I have not attempted to port templates with multi-lingual features from Wikipedia or Commons, although I am aware that Appropedia intends to be multi-lingual and will probably back its way unintentionally into the need to deal with the resulting complexity.) As with any template porting challenge, the first decision is whether to do something quick and dirty (which generally dumps cleanup work onto future editors, much like dumping carbon dioxide into the air now creates problems for future generations), or bite the bullet and port Wikipedia's comprehensive solution which can scale smoothly to handle arbitrarily many languages. I'm not a big fan of quick and dirty (i.e. minimally abstracted), unless the intent is to keep Appropedia always small and dirty. If the intent is for Appropedia to grow in size and participation, it needs the structure to handle and facilitate such growth, which Wikipedia and Commons have already built and we may copy (with considerable effort, but probably less than the effort to stumble our way incrementally toward it as Wikipedia did the first time). "There's never time to do it right, but always time to do it over." I've added a note about these templates to my tasks page ([[U:TTASKS#Babel]]) and may look at them eventually. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 13:01, 31 March 2011 (PDT)
 +
:::I should clarify that fear alone does not deter me. I've done a lot of things on wikis that frightened me initially. But if I'm afraid at first, that usually means a particular problem will involve a lot of work. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 15:25, 31 March 2011 (PDT)
 +
::::I might add that [[commons:|Wikimedia Commons]] is multilingual on a single wiki. The various language Wikipedias focus (obviously) on their respective languages, whereas Commons tries to support every language on one wiki (although in practice it mostly English, with parallel copies of some pages in the major languages). On Commons there is some tricky template code for localizing the display of some things to the user's language preference. That might be a good model to study for making Appropedia multilingual. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 22:00, 31 March 2011 (PDT)
 +
::::Thanks for the comments. Based on past conversations with Curt & Lonny, I think we've assumed that we'd go to language subdomains (as [http://ekopedia.org/ Ekopedia] has). So the single wiki is currently being used as an incubator for other languages, as well as an English language wiki.
 +
::::My preference would be (1) to aim long term for separate subdomains, and (2) set a separate incubator soon, on its own subdomain for all non-English content.
 +
::::The Wikimedia Commons model is interesting, though I suspect that works better when the emphasis is on media that is of interest to people of any language. I'm open to being convinced, though. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 02:39, 1 April 2011 (PDT)
 +
:::::I'd prefer subdomains (the Wikipedia model) for encyclopedic (i.e. article) content. We could have our own media file repository that would work like Commons - i.e., enable all the language Appropedias to share a common set of media files. Otherwise people would have to upload media files to every language subdomain they wanted to use them on. The model for our growth could be the same one Wikipedia used. Of course that would depend entirely on attracting a user community with the same depth of technical ability to set everything up. Note that even Wikipedia hasn't really gotten far beyond the handful of major languages. They have a long tail of small language Wikipedias that aren't very good yet. The Wikipedia community as a whole cannot help much with the small languages most participants don't know. I think that will change in the future as [[wikipedia:machine translation|machine translation]] improves. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 16:13, 1 April 2011 (PDT)
 +
::::::Agreed to all of that.
 +
::::::One reason I'm hoping to find someone (volunteer or modestly paid) to do a nice new skin for us is that I want a machine translation option on the page - e.g. see [http://wikiprogress.org/ Wikiprogress.org], bottom right.--[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 16:24, 1 April 2011 (PDT)
 +
:::::::[[wikipedia:Google Chrome#Automatic web page translation|Google Chrome]] has a machine translation option that works for every site in 52 languages. It is more efficient to put the option into the browser one time, than for millions of individual Web sites to redundantly invent that wheel. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 09:29, 2 April 2011 (PDT)
 +
::::::::Sure, for those who actually do it. I don't use Chrome (FF4 FTW!) but even assuming there's a Firefox extension, most people are going to remain unaware of it. Sometimes the inefficient way is more effective, for better or worse... --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 17:35, 2 April 2011 (PDT)
 +
:::::::::Which of the following two things will happen first:
 +
:::::::::* All major Web browsers copy Google Chrome's machine translation feature.
 +
:::::::::* Appropedia displays its own machine translation link.
 +
:::::::::It could be nice to have our own link but if we procrastinate for a while we might not need it. I can think of some other problems on Appropedia that won't solve themselves. For example, persuading/educating everyone to follow the naming convention (in particular, the lowercase rule of [[wikipedia:WP:LOWERCASE]], [[wikipedia:WP:CAPS]], and [[wikipedia:WP:MOSHEAD]], which a lot of pages on Appropedia violate). --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 22:19, 2 April 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
== Rocket box stove ==
 +
Hi Chris
 +
thanks for being in contact and your input into the Rocket Box Stove page I created last week.
 +
 
 +
In answer to your question I worked for AIDG in Guatemala in 2009/ 2010 as a technical documentation intern. I produced Design Manuals and Fabrication Guides for several technologies. These resources have been published on AIDG.net but little has been done to publicise the existence. Therefore, Pete Hass of AIDG has suggested crating summary information on Appropedia with links to these docs on the AIDG.net site.
 +
 
 +
The Rocket Box Stove page is the first of these.
 +
 
 +
I would like to add photos to this page, but am waiting for AIDG to get back to me with the image files so this can be done.
 +
 
 +
Another issue I am trying to persuade Pete Hass to resolve is that some of the documents in question that appear to be downloadable on (aidg.net --> technical documents) do not actually download (often the Spanish versions.) If ultimately it is impossible to get AIDG to resolve this, would it be possible to upload the design manuals/ fabrication guides directly to an appropriate page on appropedia (the technologies are: the Rocket Box Stove, the Serpentine Solar Water Heater, and the ARTI Bio-Digester)?
 +
 
 +
I would be grateful for any tips/ info on how to tag/ categorise the Rocket Box Stove Page so that it comes up for Appropedia users looking for related info.
 +
 
 +
Thanks
 +
Ben Dana {{Unsigned2|11:38, 11 April 2011|Ben Dana}}
 +
 
 +
== Approtable class ==
 +
 
 +
Hi,
 +
 
 +
Because the wikitable class is so blah!, one thing I did at [http://www.kivapedia.org/index.php/Main_Page Kivapedia] was create [http://www.kivapedia.org/index.php/MediaWiki:Common.css a kivatable class] that matched the site's color palette.
 +
 
 +
/* kivatable class for skinning normal tables */
 +
table.kivatable {
 +
  margin: 1em 1em 1em 0;
 +
  background: #FCFFF5;
 +
  border: 1px #A6BF73 solid;
 +
  border-collapse: collapse;
 +
}
 +
table.kivatable th, table.kivatable td {
 +
  border: 1px #A6BF73 solid;
 +
  padding: 0.2em;
 +
}
 +
table.kivatable th {
 +
  background: #D9ECB0;
 +
  text-align: center;
 +
}
 +
table.kivatable caption {
 +
  margin-left: inherit;
 +
  margin-right: inherit;
 +
  font-weight: bold;
 +
}
 +
 
 +
It seems a stylized table palette would be a nice touch here too.  I'm sure you have the details worked out somewhere, but if you want to see some other wikioptions, I made some samples and tool links at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:RichardF/Palettes
 +
 
 +
Regards, [[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 19:10, 4 May 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:I added some sample palettes at [[User:RichardF/Palettes]].  --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 21:34, 7 May 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:: Thanks Richard - I'll look more closely when I'm back on a laptop (just have my phone for the next 3 days). Sounds good, tho. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 21:40, 7 May 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
Okay, now the best view of all the stylized palettes and table layouts is on my main user page. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 18:11, 8 May 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
==Reforestation==
 +
Hi Chris,
 +
I made a schematic to aid in reforestation efforts (there's also some info in the image description), see File:World forest cover then and now.png I found that there's not yet any good info on the issue; I think that some articles at wikipedia on this could be taken over/modified (see Flexible Mechanisms, REDD, ...). Just wanted to let you know. Perhaps also useful is to mention use of wood as fuel (ie can be used in the steam motor model I'm working on, ...) Due to the rules in my own writings (juridical measures on climate change, ...) it can only be used in stationary applications, and preferably in ie converted fossil fuel power plants. The schematic is probably also of intrest in regards to urban planning (as allot of forest need to be made, and this will affect where housing can be created/need to be removed, also probably of intrest in regards to agriculture (ie combination planting/agroforestry, ...), changing of environment (supplying more water to locations, change in humidity, ...)
 +
 
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 01:31, 10 May 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
== Navboxes ==
 +
 
 +
[[File:Appropedia wordle.png|thumb|upright=2.0|Appropedia [http://www.wordle.net/ wordle] constructed from the 5,000 most popular content page names]]
 +
 
 +
Hi Chris,
 +
 
 +
I've been trying to make sense of the content on Appropedia, and to be perfectly honest, it's been a challenge.  I've been adding various things to my user page to help organize my thoughts, and I occasionally add something to the project.  When I made a wordle of content page names, "solar" jumped out, so that gave me a clue about a major emphasis.
 +
 
 +
I also thought I would try to make a navbox or two to see how they worked around here. I made one simple and one fancy example to test the template.  As it turned out, the template here couldn't handle [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Navbox#Child_navboxes child navboxes] with multiple show/hide headers or subgroups.  That really limits what can be made here, so I copied over the full-blown template from Wikipedia.  That fixed the rendering problem.  What I don't know is if I caused any new problems, for permissions or technically, because of that.
 +
 
 +
So, I'm fessing up and turning myself in.  Take a look at the navboxes and let me know what you think.  If the navbox template has to be reverted, I can simplify the solar one, but that also would limit future design options quite a bit.  The solar navbox style of organizing articles also could be used as launching point for fancier contents navigation stuff, like at [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Contents Wikipedia - Contents].
 +
 
 +
{{tl|Appropriate living manual navbox}}
 +
{{Appropriate living manual navbox}}
 +
 
 +
{{tl|Solar navbox}}
 +
{{Solar navbox}}
 +
 
 +
{{tl|Water navbox}}
 +
{{Water navbox}}
 +
 
 +
Regards, [[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 13:27, 13 May 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:This navbox work is great! Clear, compact & useful. I wonder if the "topics" part of the first link should be delinked, ([[Solar]] topics) but that's minor.
 +
 
 +
:I like the wordle - I tried to play with it, but Java isn't working on my borrowed computer. Will try again soon. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 08:22, 16 May 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
::Thanks.  I changed the title links.  I checked a big one on WP, and that's how they did it there too.  I just took a first stab at what goes where.  Now, some content experts can fix them up. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 10:02, 16 May 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
Here's a handy navbox for collecting handy navboxes!  ;-)
 +
 
 +
{{tl|Navboxes}}
 +
 
 +
{{Navboxes
 +
  |title = A handy navbox for collecting handy navboxes!  ;-)
 +
  |list= {{Solar navbox}} {{Water navbox}}
 +
}}
 +
--[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 12:11, 16 May 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:Heh - nice one :) --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 01:25, 17 May 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
== Cloudy! ==
 +
 
 +
Check [http://www.wordle.net/show/wrdl/3652267/Most_Active_Editors this] out! ;-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 19:55, 19 May 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:Haha - I am a wikiholic, and it has been 30 minutes since my last edit...
 +
:Seriously though, that's a great idea for seeing who's active, who's new, as long as we remember not to put too much weight just on number of edits :).
 +
:Re the data, did you get that from [[Special:ActiveUsers]]? & the 5000 pagenames used in the original Wordle came from a [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=Special:PopularPages&limit=5000&offset=0 url-hacked Special:PopularPages]? Good way of using the data, anyway.
 +
:For active editors, I wonder if we could compare by amount of text added? RecentChanges entries include the number of bytes (I think) added or removed... e.g. your last edit to the Village Pump includes the text "Appropedia talk:Village pump‎; 08:47 . . '''(+374)''' . . RichardF " (emphasis added). Extracting that would be doable, but would need some data manipulation foo to add people's numbers together... I could do that on a spreadsheet, and someone with better spreadsheet skills could do it far more easily (i.e. by automatically separating out and adding the figures for each editor - I don't know how to do that). The Appropedia database holds 90 days of recentchanges... and that would let us look specifically at mainspace edits, too.
 +
:Sounds like I've given you a job to do, so I'll emphasize that this is just an idea ''if'' you're interested. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 01:35, 20 May 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
::Yes, yes you are.  And no, I ''won't'' be your sponsor!!! ;-)  You're right about where I got the data.  As it turns out, I'm a ''highly'' skilled user of the copy and paste functions available on most modern computers these days. Throw in a "replace all" button on a word processing program and you basically know all my secrets to how I process sources information for other applications - wikis, spreadsheets and wordles included.  I'll take a stab at a short and sweet wordle. Oh, [http://www.wordle.net/show/wrdl/3653490/Appropedia_Article_Editor_Bytes here] it is! ;-)  The data is in the box.  I picked the 500 most recent article space edits, plus or minus bytes, to make it. I will confess, however, I used Excel to format the numbers without the +/- signs, and a pivot table to add bytes up by editor.  :-)
 +
 
 +
{{Navboxes
 +
  |title    = Wordle data
 +
  |liststyle = text-align:left
 +
  |list      =
 +
<pre>
 +
195.171.106.50:337
 +
71.217.152.127:148
 +
78.86.25.141:22
 +
80.222.54.21:277
 +
89.18.67.81:8767
 +
91.182.111.241:13
 +
Andrew.lamb:21323
 +
Cathalgarvey:1350
 +
Chriswaterguy:12676
 +
DOwenWilliams:3488
 +
EricRecchia:1274
 +
Georgedappilly:31
 +
GIL London1:74
 +
GIL London10:138
 +
GIL London19:316
 +
GIL London2:1103
 +
GIL London20:387
 +
GIL London23:225
 +
GIL London5:645
 +
HowMatters:262
 +
J.M.Pearce:14397
 +
Jthiller:2114
 +
Juliedanger:17649
 +
Kili:6745
 +
KVDP:1274
 +
LucasG:526
 +
RichardF:260
 +
Tahnok:1491
 +
YawenAmber:8980
 +
</pre>
 +
}}
 +
--[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 06:38, 20 May 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:::If you know anyone who could be a sponsor, let me know. I'm going to start looking (after one more edit...)
 +
:::Thanks, very cool... I wonder if we could automate or semi-automate that, to create new outputs (of data or even images) every ''n'' edits. I guess a macro in Excel could do all the fiddly stuff.
 +
:::I've never learnt to use pivot tables, but I know they're handy. I won't ask for an explanation right now, as I already have too many distractions on my plate :).
 +
 
 +
::::That particular list might be a little trickier than some to automate with a macro because I'm not sure every line has the same layout.  New pages might be slightly different. I used the " . . " parts to convert to tabs in word processing and then used them as delimeters to form columns in the spreadsheet. A little more word processing replace all cleanup and deleting unwanted columns got me to the basic columns.  From there the final pivot table was literally just a few clicks away. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 08:45, 20 May 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
== Green living article ==
 +
 
 +
Hi, I thought I would try to port over the substance of the [[Wikipedia:Sustainable living]] article to the [[Green living]] article here.  I have a draft at [[User:RichardF/Green living]].  Can you give me some tips I should keep in mind to minimize whatever kinds of trouble I'm likely to get into for doing this? ;-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 20:36, 28 May 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:Hehe. This is fantastic. For a non-content person, you're doing great content work here, and doing the rewrite in userspace is good. Very little needing comment, but:
 +
:* Images: Of course it's also ok to use files from Wikipedia (i.e. from [[Commons:|Commons]]), though changing the images in the article as you've done helps create a distinction, which is good. If you upload a new file (e.g. [[:File:Sustainable development and hierarchy of needs.png|this one]]) be sure to include the source (you made that one I assume) and license.
 +
:* I think that a lot of the more detailed info could be spun off into individual articles leaving just the very comprehensive structure and basic ideas for each area. That means a bit less duplication and easier maintenance. (Wikipedia can get away with more duplication than we can, with more editors.) That's a big job, but doesn't have to be done all at once. That's just my thought - I'm open to other ideas, and don't let that stop you.
 +
:Good stuff! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 00:11, 29 May 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
::Messing with other people's content is like taking notes. ;-)  On images, I don't know how that works here with Commons. Do I have to copy files over or do they just show up from there?
 +
::My emerging view on here vs. Wikipedia is like the "General vs. Tools" sections on navboxes.  For the most part, I'm thinking these articles should be WikipediaPlus - the original article plus projects and tools shown here. From that perspective I don't see cutting much content.  I do like the idea of ''splitting'' content.  To help with that, I upgraded {{tl|Main}} to the big version that can handle up to 10 articles.
 +
::I'll probably also add {{tl|W}} to all of the links and then decide which red ones here to keep as well. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 07:04, 29 May 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:::Commons images (or any other images) would have to be uploaded here. (On Wikipedia they can access Commons images directly... we don't have that option turned on, but may do in future.) But if you're uploading, hey, there's a world of choice... not to worry for now, but if you want to get into this down the track, try an [http://www.google.com/advanced_image_search advanced image search], choosing the bottom option for licensing. Double-check that it's open licensed, since Google often gets the license wrong.
 +
:::Everything else sounds great! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 07:51, 29 May 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
== Forum... ==
 +
 
 +
''The Forum on Science and Innovation for Sustainable Development''
 +
 
 +
Hi, are you familiar with The Forum on Science and Innovation for Sustainable Development? http://sustainabilityscience.org/
 +
 
 +
It seems to have a framework very much in line with Appropedia. http://sustainabilityscience.org/category.html
 +
 
 +
--[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 20:37, 6 June 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:Hey, very interesting. This is giving me ideas - some of which would need serious coding work (separating out projects and how-tos within a topic category). But it's definitely a good reference point for our categorization. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 21:17, 6 June 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
Their framework is an example of a [[User:RichardF#Faceted_classifications|faceted classification]] system I've been looking for in Appropedia.  Their facets are Critical Sectors, Development Goals, Geographic Regions, Research Themes, and Geographic Scale.  Any article could be coded by each of those facets. In Appropedia lingo, I would call those [[:Category:Fundamental|Fundamental categories]]. 
 +
 
 +
If Appropedia reconsidered its fundamental categories to represent a framework similar to the Forum's, this wiki's overall contents navigation system could be updated and fleshed out. 
 +
* The main facet and navigation bar still could be based on "Critical Sectors" (with addressing "Fundamental Human Needs" focused by "Development Goals").
 +
* The second facet, "Research (and Social) Themes" could be represented by "Appropriate Technology and Green Living, Plus.."  These facets represent the "Tools" I highlighted in the sample navboxes.
 +
* The "Geographic Regions" and "Geographic Scale" facets help focus the context of particular needs and the tools to address them.
 +
 
 +
If you're interested in updating Appropedia's encyclopedic classifications system, I'm all for it and would be happy to help.  --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 06:21, 7 June 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:I'm very interested... are you interested in explaining in some more detail, at [[A:VP]], about how our categories would change? Thanks! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 20:14, 7 June 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
::Okay, I'll do some work in my own area first to see if I really have a clue what I'm talking about. If I find something worth sharing, I'll post it to [[A:VP]].  ;-)  --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 05:27, 8 June 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:::{{done}}: [[Appropedia talk:Village pump#Fundamental category - faceted subcategories proposal|Fundamental category - faceted subcategories proposal]] :-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 11:33, 10 June 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
==sunnyBag==
 +
You may wish to see this [[sunnyBag|sunnyBag project]]
 +
 
 +
== Heliostats image ==
 +
 
 +
Hi Chris:
 +
 
 +
Someone put an image onto the Heliostats page a few days ago. Unfortunately, he did not include any explanation, and the image was far from self-explanatory. So I moved it to the discussion page, with a comment that if anyone wants to explain it, it should be put back onto the main page. So far, nobody has responded.
 +
 
 +
The poster did have a point, though. The Heliostats article would be much better with some good pictures. The Heliostat page on Wikipedia (much of which I also wrote) has a few images. Since they're in Wikipedia, they must be public domain. Maybe you could look into this, and if possible copy the first two images, at least, into the Heliostats page here.
 +
 
 +
How's it going?
 +
 
 +
[[User:DOwenWilliams|DOwenWilliams]] 09:57, 12 June 2011 (PDT) David
 +
 
 +
:Yes - if you click through the images on Wikipedia, you'll come to their description pages. They're all stored on Wikimedia [[Commons:|Commons]], and you can follow the link through to there. They can be saved from there and [[Special:Upload|upload]] at Appropedia (link near bottom of left navbar). Always include the license and attribution (link is the most important thing, preferably to where the image is on Wikimedia Commons.
 +
 
 +
:I'd be happy to help, but I'm behind in some work I need to do on our internships, and the hunt for funding. Are you ok to try the uploads, and let me know if you have any questions? Thanks.
 +
 
 +
:Going well here - trying to grab a hold of the many opportunities out there. Keeping busy. Good to see you here - all well for you I hope?  --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 11:20, 12 June 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
== Appropriate technology Portal ==
 +
 
 +
Hi,
 +
 
 +
Any interest in trying out some version of the [http://www.whatissustainability.org/index.php?title=User:RichardF Appropriate technology test Portal] over here? -- [[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 10:30, 27 June 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
== You have a message ... ==
 +
 
 +
at [[User_talk:GeoBard#Request_for_comment-_Water_resource_policy]][[User:GeoBard|GeoBard]] 17:06, 3 July 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
== Appropedia Outline of water ==
 +
 
 +
I'm curious.  Are you interested in working with your water buddies to develop an [[Outline of water]]? I keep trying to find a way to help readers and editors make sense of what's here.
 +
 
 +
{{User:RichardF/Lists}}
 +
 
 +
This table might be useful for outline developers, and you seem to be as good as any other guinea pig.  ;-)  --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 14:51, 9 July 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:Hi - sorry for the delay, just proving my point about people being easily distracted ;-). I did look at this, and browsed your userspace, but I'm wondering if you have an example of what you've got in mind by an outline? Basically just a list of key topics that we really need to cover in the water area? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 10:44, 14 July 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:Ok, read the table more carefully... so you'd like me (& water friends) to develop something starting at [[User:RichardF/Outline of water]] - as in, deleting stuff that's less relevant here, and adding/expanding others? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 10:48, 14 July 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
::What I'm doing is making a suggestion by analogy.  The outline at [[User:RichardF/Outline of water]] is what '''''Wikipedia''''' contributors consider to be the most important, high-level conceptual structure of articles related to water. So, if Appropedia does '''''not''''' equal Wikipedia, then what would an '''''Appropedia''''' outline of the most important, high-level conceptual structure of articles related to water look like?  Whatever that is then can be used to better structure categories, portals, stub drives, etc., etc... --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 11:03, 14 July 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
== Porting articles from Wikipedia ==
 +
 
 +
I saw some comments you made about Google penalizing sites for copying content from other sites. Does that have any bearing on whether or not I should port over articles, like [[Wikipedia:A Guide for the Perplexed]]? --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 09:19, 13 July 2011 (PDT)
 +
:My suggestion would be, if copying something from Wikipedia improves Appropedia, <strike>then copy it and don't worry about what Google does</strike> <small>(but see my comments about wrapper pages below - for generic background content not directly within Appropedia's remit, making a wrapper page that points to the Wikipedia article might be better than copying the article verbatim)</small>. The quality of Appropedia will determine, in the long run, how many views we get. We copy all sorts of templates from Wikipedia, sometimes without much modification. How much do we need Google's blessing anyway? I have to think that anyone who is seriously interested in appropriate technology and sustainability would be able to find Appropedia sooner or later, if we make ourselves a large enough target. (Someone who would ''only'' stumble across Appropedia from a random Google search probably isn't interested enough to make the level of personal commitment necessary to do something relevant to sustainability.) Wikipedia has thousands of articles on topics within Appropedia's remit, and often Wikipedia's content is better than ours. I think it is better to copy an article from Wikipedia than to leave a bunch of [[wikipedia:WP:RED|red links]] on Appropedia to the topic. I think active promotion via social filtering and recommending would beat casting a broad net via Google. For example, today on Facebook someone asked me to recommend some books on global warming. It would be nice if I could answer all such questions by linking to articles on Appropedia. But Appropedia is currently a long way from being the comprehensive knowledge base on all sustainability-related topics. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 10:46, 13 July 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
::Okay, I'll see how "red" it looks over here, then decide what I want to do about it. As it turns out, [[Wikipedia:A Guide for the Perplexed]], is a more comprehensive article than [[Wikipedia:Small Is Beautiful]].  ;-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 11:52, 13 July 2011 (PDT)
 +
:::It's virtually all red.  What's the rule-of-thumb on using {{tl|w}} again? >;-o)  --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 11:58, 13 July 2011 (PDT)
 +
::::Thanks Richard...My personal rule of thumb is that if it's relevant to Appropedia but there isn't likely to be an article here any time soon, then {{tl|w}} is ideal (e.g. a not-so-big environmental lobby group, climate agreement or important thinker); if it's a bigger topic and there really should be an article on the topic here, link it (even if it's a redlink) and optionally add a {{tl|w}}; if it's a minor point, something mentioned in passing and not particularly relevant to Appropedia in its own right, it probably doesn't need a link or a {{tl|w}} (the reader is capable of doing their own Wikipedia or web search if they really want to know). --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 12:11, 13 July 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
::Teratornis: "if copying something from Wikipedia improves Appropedia, then copy it" - agreed, that's the main benchmark.
 +
::"How much do we need Google's blessing anyway?" - most of our traffic comes from Google, by a long way. By the figures I've seen on Google Analytics lately, our traffic is down from its highs, and hasn't increased for a long time (over a year?) - but I don't want to focus on number so much. It's hard to say what proportion of contributors comes from Google, or what proportion of journalists or people who actually do something with what they find, but I'm thinking that some must come from there, so our search ranking deserves at least some attention, especially where it coincides with making quality content. A part of what we're offering is that people find something different here to what they'd find at Wikipedia.
 +
::My thoughts so far:
 +
::* [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=Special%3AWhatLinksHere&hidelinks=1&target=Template%3AAttrib+wikipedia&namespace=0 Pages containing Wikipedia content] should be culled and expanded as appropriate, focusing on what's important re sustainability and development.
 +
::* Related topics/content on Appropedia provide extra content ideas for those pages - this will often be the most interesting, and it's also good for search engines as it's unique content. A look at the relevant categories should give some ideas - e.g. a sentence or so about each of the articles in the categories (at least, any that seem
 +
::* The beginning of the article is most important for readers, and I think it's most important for search engines too. So if any part of an article deserves attention, it's the first sentence, then the first paragraph, then the first two paragraphs. Adding to this part of the article, putting a different slant on it while not compromising on factual quality (even improving it) is the ideal place to start with such articles.
 +
::* The rest of the article deserves attention too (including external links - these should probably be reduced in most cases, to just a few excellent quality links). This takes time, but a section at a time, on the bits where we feel inspired, goes a long way.
 +
::As an example, [[Urban agriculture]] - I've worked on this in the past, and culled and adapted it a lot, but I see that I left the beginning very close to the Wikipedia article, and not very inspiring: "'''Urban agriculture''' is the cultivation (and sometimes the processing and distribution) of [[food]] in or near villages, towns and [[cities]].<nowiki><ref>Bailkey, M., and J. Nasr. 2000. "From Brownfields to Greenfields: Producing food in North American cities," ''Community Food Security News'' 6.</ref></nowiki> It can also involve [[animal husbandry]], [[aquaculture]], [[agro-forestry]] and [[horticulture]]."
 +
::So just now I rewrote the intro, simplified some language to make it more readable, and added more info up-front about the benefits. It's not great, but I feel like it's a step closer to being an interesting and informative article.
 +
::Anyway, to the immediate question... I'd prefer to see at least some rewriting and additional research go into pages based on Wikipedia articles. E.g. mixing in [[Green_Development_Wikis_Search|content from other green wikis]] or more broadly from the web. Not copying the whole Wikipedia article in most cases - especially removing detailed history or biography sections that don't directly impact on sustainability. Not that biography or history are a problem - just that if we're going to copy content, I think it's best to stick to essentials.
 +
::Another thing that's going to help usability as well as search ranking is having lots of good wikilinks within Appropedia. I've been tuning up the [[A:Wikilink bot]] - it's a good feeling when I get it going and get so much wikilinking done, but I haven't made the time for it that I'd like, lately. Might manage to get some more geeky or semi-geeky wikignomes to help with that. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 12:11, 13 July 2011 (PDT)
 +
:::We should be different from Wikipedia but even all the different stuff will still be loaded with jargon terms that refer to thousands of encyclopedic topics that Wikipedia has already covered (quite well in some cases). We would need tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of editor-hours to re-invent that very large wheel. The part of Appropedia that is different than Wikipedia would be far easier to write if we could just transparently build off what is already on Wikipedia. It would be nice if Google understood that. One workaround that I have used on a company wiki is to write what I call "wrapper pages" which are local pages with the same names as pages on Wikipedia. Sort of like a soft redirect, but also a place to expand on the local content. The idea is not to duplicate an entire Wikipedia article, or even necessarily to write a local article that stands on its own, but merely to define the term sufficiently for someone who is just looking for the definition. The wrapper page links to the Wikipedia article for anyone who wants complete coverage, and also acts like a local stub that users can expand in the future if they like. The benefits of wrapper pages:
 +
:::*They eliminate red links.
 +
:::*They are easy to create quickly.
 +
:::*They give enough information to satisfy users who just want a definition for a jargon term.
 +
:::*They link to Wikipedia for users who need more.
 +
:::*They are a handy place for people to summarize the Appropedia-specific uses of the term.
 +
:::*They can have their own category ([[:Category:Wrapper pages]] if we decide to go that route).
 +
:::*Since they don't duplicate slabs of Wikipedia text, they might not damage our Google PageRank.
 +
:::Re: Google Analytics - how do I see whatever you are alluding to? I don't know what to conclude from "most of our traffic comes from Google, by a long way." Does that mean if we duplicate more Wikipedia content, those people will not find us? I know in my own case, I use Google to get to Appropedia not become I need to, but because I'm lazy and it's often the easiest way since the Google search box is available in my browser at all times. If that method got PageRanked out of existence, I would get to Appropedia by some other way. Presumably the people we care about in the traffic from Google are people who are not aware of Appropedia already, and who would only find out about Appropedia by stumbling here from Google. I can't imagine a way to estimate their numbers with anything like accuracy. As far as who is going to build Appropedia, those would be people who are far beyond needing to find Appropedia accidentally on Google, I think. They already know about Appropedia and have spent enough time reading it to have bookmarked it or otherwise made it a regular stop, and our PageRank probably doesn't much affect them. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 22:50, 13 July 2011 (PDT)
 +
::::Wrapper pages would also be handy for filling out our help system. Currently there are lots of rules from Wikipedia that we tend to follow implicitly, but we don't have local copies of the Wikipedia manual pages (and their shortcuts) here for all of them yet. That makes writing descriptive edit summaries harder than necessary, since we don't have handy local shortcuts to link in the edit summaries to document the rules we applied in an edit. Instead we have to type something irritatingly long like [[wikipedia:WP:REFPUNCT]] to explain why we moved a reference to go after a comma or period (full stop) character, or [[wikipedia:WP:FOOTERS]] to explain why we rearranged the order of standard footer sections, or [[wikipedia:WP:MOSHEAD]] to explain why we changed the capitalization of a section heading, etc. On Wikipedia an experienced editor makes many purely formal edits and for each one there is an explanatory help page we should link from the [[wikipedia:WP:EDITSUMMARY]] to educate the newbies. Linking to shortcuts on Wikipedia is also harder to verify since interwiki links never show up as red links even if the destination page does not exist. It would be nicer to have a reasonably complete set of local shortcuts that coherently define a workable subset of the Wikipedia rules that our Wikipedia-indoctrinated editors tend to follow. (Maybe I am only talking about myself here.) --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 23:03, 13 July 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:::::Can you show us an example of a wrapper page?  What come to mind for me is the [http://www.whatissustainability.org/index.php?title=User:RichardF&oldid=128012 Iframe widget] or what Microsoft SharePoint calls webparts. I use lots of those at work, including live views of ''trusted'' external sites. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 05:54, 14 July 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
::::::RichardF, I can see where "Wrapper" gives that impression, but if I understand Teratornis correctly, it's more like a stub page, but with a certain intention, reflected in (a) the wikipedia link for anyone who wants more info, and (b) being satisfied with a super-brief page that just provides a definition, at least to start with.
 +
::::::Quick response to Teratornis (it's late here): I really like the idea of wrapper pages.
 +
::::::I do find many WP help pages irritatingly long, but I understand ''why'' they're long. Briefer definitions or "wrapper" page here would help avoid the wall-of-text, "tl;dr" ("too long; didn't read") problem, keep people on Appropedia (never underestimate the ability of people to get distracted - and I include myself in that) and still link to the ''War and Peace'' version at Wikipedia for any remaining questions.
 +
::::::Re wrapper pages in mainspace - I love stubs , and this approach to creating short, helpful pages is a good one. Sometimes I set myself a goal of making a new page (using this wikimarkup template: [[Help:Creating a page#Topic page]]). I rarely manage it in less than 10 minutes, because it's so tempting to keep going beyond just a definition and essential points, but I think that could be a good exercise to go back to. Another example, from my time on Wikipedia - I helped save [[Wikipedia:UASB]], a hard-to-read stub, from being merged to [[wastewater]], simply by clarifying a sentence, adding a second sentence, and finding an excellent external link. Later, other users (in particular one very competent editor who is a water engineer) turned that stub into an excellent, detailed article. I'm as proud of that good stub as I am of anything else I've done on Wikipedia.
 +
::::::Maybe we could even do a jam session, getting online at the same time and creating as many wrapper pages as possible in a certain period. To go a step further, we could do this for an hour, have 10 minutes break, then have a second hour where we each pick an article and add references to other relevant Appropedia articles, maybe spending 10 minutes each for that phase. Events can be great for keeping interest and enthusiasm up, and this is an online, low-carbon event. What do you think?  
 +
::::::Back to the topic... ah yes, Google Analytics. If you're interested in seeing the details, Lonny could give you access - or maybe he's got a recent Analytics report to look at. Lonny understands Analytics much more than I do. It actually tells you what search terms brought people to Appropedia, and from memory of the times I've looked, there was no significant proportion of searches using "Appropedia". (I'm sure you're not the only one who does that though. I do sometimes, though usually I use an address bar shortcut in Firefox - also possible in Opera - which I create by right-clicking the search box... so I just have to type "a foo" to look up foo in Appropedia.)
 +
::::::Whether or not those people are the ones who will edit Appropedia... maybe it's just 0.1% who do, but by having a greater profile, it's more likely that the keen contributors and doers will find us, directly or through someone else telling them. But this is semi-educated speculating - maybe you're right, and that's not a channel where contributors find us. I think it was Curt who mentioned the idea of a survey of contributors (e.g. on surveymonkey) & I think that would be useful. ::::::--[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 09:52, 14 July 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:::::::Chris, I'm going to keep bugging you about [[User talk:Chriswaterguy#Appropedia Outline of water|first, do the right things]]; then, do the right things well... ;-)  It's seems to me like all the volume building activities would be more useful if they were somehow part of a grand plan. My current thinking is that if stub drives were based on Appropedia topical outlines, then at least they more likely would be "appropriate" stubs for Appropedia. Maybe it also would then be easier to decide what other pages would best be stored in wrappers. :-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 10:30, 14 July 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
[undent]: I've answered on my talk page re the water outline, and will get to work on that. Agreed that a big picture plan is important, and I appreciate other people pushing on this, as it's not my forte. Still keen on the volume-building activities, of course :-) - and yes, a context and structure for them will help a lot. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 11:43, 14 July 2011 (PDT)
 +
::"Wrapper" is unfortunately a word with multiple meanings in computer science. (There is for example a [[wikipedia:Template:Wrapper]] that is unrelated to what I mentioned above.) My use of the word "wrapper" may be somewhat misleading, because to many computer people it might imply wrapping some code around something so you can push it through something else without letting that something else "see" and act on that something. I'm talking about ordinary pages that just sit there and don't get processed by anything. What I'm calling a "wrapper" page might more properly be a "[[wikipedia:vicar|vicar]]" page (or perhaps a ''vicarious'' page), since the wrapper page is merely a local stand-in for a page on Wikipedia that is more complete, but the word "vicar" with its links to organized religion would probably be even more confusing. Basically a wrapper page is just a stub page that corresponds to an existing (and unlikely to be deleted) page on Wikipedia with the same title and subject. A wrapper page is distinct from stubs that do not correspond to Wikipedia articles (the latter kinds of stubs we create to request their expansion on Appropedia with fresh content). A wrapper page might stay small indefinitely, if there is nothing we particularly need to add beyond the [[wikipedia:WP:LEAD|lead summary]] and link to the Wikipedia article. I will make some notes in [[User:Teratornis/Tasks#Wrapper pages]] ([[U:TT#WRAP]]) to summarize this discussion. We could discuss further if necessary on [[Help talk:Wrapper page]] once I create that page (I have a [[Help:Wrapper page]] on a company wiki I can adapt for Appropedia, which answers at least some of the [[wikipedia:Five Ws|Five Ws (and one H)]]).
 +
::With regard to a wrapper page editing jam session, it might be an interesting idea for later, once we have a substantial number of people who understand wrapper pages. Initially, if I think of any wrapper pages I need to make, I'd rather make them when I think about them, rather than wait for some scheduled later time. It might be best to work asynchronously anyway (which is what wikis are fundamentally about), because that would reduce our chances of [[wikipedia:Help:Edit conflict|edit conflicts]] if two jammers try to make or expand the same wrapper page at the same time. Once we have reached a working consensus on how to make wrapper pages, we can start cutting down the backlog of red links in [[Special:WantedPages]] (we sure have a lot; <code>[http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=Special:WantedPages&limit=5000 &limit=5000]</code> shows 5000 entries with no hint of where the bottom is). If a jam session motivates someone to help out, that's great. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 12:41, 14 July 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
''Distinguishing wrapper pages from soft redirects''
 +
 
 +
''Whether and how to distinguish wrapper pages from soft redirects''
 +
 
 +
I started some notes in [[User:Teratornis/Tasks#Wrapper pages]] ([[U:TT#WRAP]]). On researching what's already here, I remembered that you (Chris) were already thinking similarly with [[Help:Soft redirect|soft redirects]]. A wrapper page basically combines the features of a dictionary entry, a soft redirect, and a stub, although unlike a real stub there is no suggestion that a wrapper page necessarily will ever expand into a real article. Some wrapper pages might remain wrapper pages indefinitely, unless perhaps the Appropedia community should someday grow to such enormous size that we have enough contributors who want to write thousands of background encyclopedic articles to support the articles that are primarily within Appropedia's remit.
 +
 
 +
I suppose the next challenge is to decide whether and how to distinguish wrapper pages from soft redirects. I'm thinking if there is a difference, it's that a soft redirect might be intentionally less informative. I.e., we wouldn't envision a soft redirect page accumulating local notes about how Appropedia uses a term. A wrapper page, in contrast, provides a direct path to grow into a quasi-article, although I wouldn't expect that to be common, at least not while Appropedia remains fairly small. In other words, I don't see wrapper pages conflicting with the pre-existing idea of soft redirects, because maybe the ideas are different enough. The primary function of a wrapper page is to eliminate a red link while still hopefully keeping most readers on Appropedia. I guess a soft redirect might be more of a suggestion to the reader to go look at the external page. What do you think? --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 08:34, 17 July 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:In most cases the wrapper would be better - but the soft direct is good for cases where the topic is clearly outside Appropedia's scope.
 +
:I'm still thinking about the name, but otherwise I like everything about the "wrapper" approach. Do you want to propose a guideline & float it on [[A:VP]]?
 +
:As for the name,  we can ask for input, and if wrapper's still the best, just make sure the explanation is prominent & clear. One option is a symbolic name like porthole or window - probably no more likely that someone will guess the right meaning, but less likely they'll guess the wrong one. Or crib? Both a form of concise notes & refs, & a place for a newborn article :). --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 10:34, 17 July 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
::Chiming in, the closest analogies that comes to mind for me are "[[Wikipedia:Abstract (summary)|abstract]]," "[[Wikipedia:synapsis|synapsis]]" or "[[Wikipedia:summary|summary]]."  I'm thinking something with literary connotations would help readers more than something with MIS or obscure connotatons. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 12:48, 17 July 2011 (PDT)
 +
:::I agree with the distinction that a soft redirect is appropriate for topics clearly outside our scope. That should make sense to everybody.
 +
:::I will make [[User:Teratornis/Wrapper page]] as a subpage rather than as Help:Wrapper page at first. When we decide the name we can move my subpage to the Help: or Project: namespace. I don't think we need to worry much about the particular name for the topic causing confusion, because all mentions of it (on the category page, and in the template to put on wrapper pages) will link to the help page. The name is only confusing if people refer to it without linking it, and then other users might see "naked" references to "wrapper page" (or whatever else we call it) and not understand it. I don't see how any name could avoid that problem, since people will not magically understand the concept from just one word. People will either read the help page, or they won't know what the word means in the way we are using it. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 17:36, 18 July 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
::::A name can go a long way to explaining something if it triggers existing memes. Note Alanna Shaikh's [[How to start a successful NGO #What makes a new NGO succeed?|comment]]: "I suspect that an awful lot of our success is due to the fact that the name Change.org is easy to understand and sticks in your head with the tenacity of a Britney Spears song." :-). I like the idea of calling it a "something stub," as in most ways it functions as a stub, just with some different expectations. Even "wrapper stub" would be a bit clearer, or "porthole stub" to evoke the idea of getting a limited view of a different site.
 +
::::Is there anything structurally different about these, compared to standard stubs? I'm guessing that rather than just a Wikipedia interwiki link among the links, there'd be a notice, (called, say, {{tl|wrapper stub}}) pointing to Wikipedia and briefly explaining the purpose of wrapper stubs.
 +
::::Btw, we ''could'' semi-automate the creation of these pages, by doing a [[Special:Import]] of a list of pages, but doing editing the xml file to (using regex) to leave only the first x sentences, add templates ({{tl|wrapper stub}} and <nowiki>{{copyedit|Semi-automated stub creation - please tidy,fix the categories and check that it makes sense.}}</nowiki>) and make any other changes we want. That would make for very rough stubs, but it would be a quick way of creating a lot of these pages. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 11:54, 26 July 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
== Only too much is enough! ==
 +
 
 +
Can you find all the links to [[Portal:Green living]] in the [[MediaWiki:Sitenotice]] navbar?  ;-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 08:03, 19 July 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:D'oh, added the wrong link... fixed now. Thanks for picking it up! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 08:25, 19 July 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
::Oh, just one more thing... Would you mind changing [[:Category:Water]] to [[Portal:Water]]?  :-)  --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 09:53, 19 July 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:::NP :-) --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 10:44, 19 July 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
How about changing [[MediaWiki:Sitenotice]] from [[:Category:Construction and materials]] to [[Portal:Construction and materials]]? :-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 09:55, 21 July 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:Done, thank you. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 11:07, 21 July 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
::Thanks.  In case you haven't noticed my recent 500 edits or so, I also finally figured out the double-parameters for [[Appropedia:Highlighted Projects/Selected/Layout]]. ;-)  --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 12:33, 21 July 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:::I'm a bit lost, I confess - Teratornis probably understands it better than me. But I'm glad it's working! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 00:56, 22 July 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
::::Me too!!!  ;-)  The basic idea is that ''any'' portal can use a related project from the Appropedia Highlighted Projects archive list - [[Appropedia:Highlighted Projects/Selected]] ''or'', if necessary include projects not highlighted site-wide, e.g., #12 at [[Portal:Food and agriculture/Selected project]].  The double-parameter (with double layout, e.g., [[Portal:Food and agriculture/Selected project/Layout]], lets the ...Archive/Nominations link always go to the correct archive page, not just the original archive. Or at least, that's the idea!  :-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 06:11, 22 July 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:::::Ok, getting a bit clearer, & it's interesting. By double parameter, I take it you're referring to the "sub-sub-page" format with two slashes in the title? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 06:20, 22 July 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
::::::Not quite. It's like with all the fancy Wikipedia infobox templates that use arcane text parser functions to figure out when someone died!, e.g., {{tl|Infobox person}}  ;-)
 +
 
 +
::::::The double parameters are like when you add the archive link to a selected project sub-sub page,
 +
<pre>{{Appropedia:Highlighted Projects/Selected/3|archive=Portal:Food and agriculture/Selected project}}</pre>  
 +
 
 +
::::::and ''that'' page sends it along
 +
<pre>{{Appropedia:Highlighted Projects/Selected/Layout
 +
|image  = Kivagreenhouse1 (45).jpg
 +
|size  =
 +
|caption= Year round veggies in a homemade, just under the permitting limit, strawbale greenhouse.
 +
|link  = Kiva's straw bale greenhouse
 +
|title  =
 +
|archive={{{archive|Appropedia:Highlighted Projects/Selected}}}
 +
}}</pre>
 +
 
 +
:::::: to the layout page.
 +
<pre>| width="33%"| <div style="text-align:left;">'''[[{{{archive|Appropedia:Highlighted Projects/Selected}}}|...Archive/Nominations]]'''</div></pre>
 +
::::::--[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 06:58, 22 July 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:::::::Ah... well, I won't say "that's clear now" but at least it's a getting clearer :-). It'll sink in, given time.
 +
:::::::If this isn't already documented somewhere (is this how Wikipedia portals work?) then your explanation above could be copied to a help page, as a start. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 07:59, 22 July 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
::::::::Layout pages are quite common in Wikipedia portals. What's unique here is adding the extra "archive" parameter. I'll add some documentation "real soon now."  :-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 09:12, 22 July 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
== Healthcare vs. Health and Safety ==
 +
 
 +
Should [[Portal:Healthcare]] be renamed back to [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=Portal:Health_and_safety&oldid=88004 Portal:Health and Safety]? I'd rather not make lots of subpages under the "wrong" name. It seems to me the portal should follow the broader topic. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 17:00, 19 July 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:Agreed, and done. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 21:39, 19 July 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
::Thanks! That should just about take care of any further changes needed anywhere on Appropedia (don't forget the sidebar redirect), at least until the U.S. raises its debt ceiling!!!  ;-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 05:24, 20 July 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
== Food and agriculture ==
 +
Could you change [[:Category:Food and agriculture]] to [[Portal:Food and agriculture]] up top?  Thanks!  --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 19:13, 23 July 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
== Energy portal ==
 +
 
 +
The [[Portal:Energy|Energy portal]] is recharged! Could you change out [[:Category:Energy]] on the top line?  --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 10:57, 26 July 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:Done - great stuff having all these new portals! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 11:01, 26 July 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
::Cool.  ;-)  --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 11:23, 26 July 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
== Transport Portal ==
 +
 
 +
[[Portal:Transport]] is redesigned.  Could you change the links at the sidebar and across the top?  I've now made all the redesigns I intended to do for a proof of concept.  Do you have any other portal you would like to see redesigned? --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 17:32, 31 July 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:Thanks - links changed. I think that's a great proof of concept already. But a portal for [[Projects]] would be interesting. That would offer some different challenges. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 02:12, 1 August 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
::I thought you might say that.  ;-)  I'll try something out in the next week or so. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 05:27, 1 August 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:::If you want to update the sidebar and sitenotice, [[Portal:Projects]] is live. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]]
 +
 
 +
 
 +
== Hallo ==
 +
 
 +
hi....
 +
 
 +
hallo chris
 +
 
 +
Hallo Chris, how are you?
 +
I'm Edy Siswoyo,
 +
 
 +
:Great - good to meet you! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 22:44, 10 August 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
==  Hi Chris ==
 +
 
 +
Hi Chris, saya Ida dari Sosiologi UI.
 +
Terimakasih atas pembelajarannya ttg appropedia.
 +
saya masih perlu belajar.
 +
 
 +
==  Hi Chris ==
 +
 
 +
Hi Chris, saya Ida dari Sosiologi UI.
 +
Terimakasih atas pembelajarannya ttg appropedia.
 +
saya masih perlu belajar.
 +
 
 +
Hi Christ thanks for sharing information with us.
 +
Ganda
 +
 
 +
Test.....Hi,,,,Chris
 +
 
 +
 
 +
== On Bible quotes [http://www.appropedia.org/Diabetes_mellitus_cured_-_George%27s_experience#Praise_The_LORD there] ==
 +
Hi Chris, Lonny,.....
 +
 
 +
Thank you very much for pointing out the difference of opinion on appropriateness of Bible quotes here. I have no intentions to use the Appropedia space for religious propaganda.
 +
 
 +
I didn't know about the objections raised through the talk page because there were no email alerts from there for quite some time now. Having known, I am modifying the section.
 +
 
 +
It is true that I wanted to express my gratitude in public for having made me think differently & leave the beaten track. That is why that section title was chosen. The sentences of the body of that section were to be seen as quotations from a book that has the maximum number of copies printed ever in human history. More over it was felt that those are the sentences that could be framed in the most precise form to express the ideas in my mind. I could not make sentences crispier than these to convey those ideas. The links are given to ascertain the genuineness of the source and text.
 +
 
 +
It is felt that as much as I am happy, you also might be happy about the popularity of the page. Now a Google search of the words ''LONG WHEAT'' brings title of this page as the FIRST of the 85,400,000 results. It literally surprised me. I had never even dreamt about things going to this proportion.
 +
 
 +
Noticing this popularity I was thinking of seeking your valuable opinion on launching a pilot project to cure persons who are in '''very advanced stages of the disease - viz. Diabetes'''. I have no idea about what all are to be done and how to go about.
 +
 
 +
The findings of Dr. Roy Taylor of the Newcastle University, UK have '''added trustworthiness''' to the contents of the page.
 +
 
 +
Thank you Chris, Lonny, Munimortal, Teratornis & Yeahvle.
 +
 
 +
[[User:Georgedappilly|Shooter]] 23:42, 20 August 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:Thank you George - glad to hear your response. I replied on the article's talk page. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 11:18, 5 September 2011 (PDT)
 +
==My experience on Appropedia==
 +
It is almost a year now since I joined Appropedia and what I would say is I am really enjoying myself here and learning a lot. The good thing here is-you get texts on various projects in the most original form(and how to's) making adoption and implementation very easy. Appropedia has also been a wonderful place to share ideas and receive views from all over the world. At Appropedia I have been able to also learn a lot on Appropriate Technology to the point of bettering some of the projects I had been running before joining Appropedia and come up with new projects that I believe will one day have the impact that I intend for them. And I am particulary very happy with the success we are scoring on our Kiswahili project. Views are consistently rising and this mean we are delivering Appropriate information in a language best understood by our readers.
 +
===Other benefits===
 +
*#Mediawiki formating, somehow.
 +
*#Friends
 +
*#Tech help
 +
*#Practical experience on Appropriate Technology
 +
===My strategy===
 +
I had planned to reach 100 Kiswahili pages by start of this month(September 2011) but that didn't work! After I reach this target number of pages, I will open a Kiswahili-Appropedia Facebook account with the aim of soliciting more translations from others. [[User:kili]]
 +
 
 +
:Cool! Will reply on your talk page. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 10:34, 16 September 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
 
 +
== Internship ==
 +
 
 +
Hi, I am Jonas. I found interesting your internship program and the project.
 +
 
 +
I study computer science, and use PHP/Python/C++/MySQL. I work with projects involving Wikipedia and MediaWiki. I am doing research using machine learning, and statistics.
 +
 
 +
This is my user page: [http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usuário:Jonas_AGX Jonas_agx]
 +
 
 +
Regards,
 +
[[User:Agx|Agx]] 21:11, 2 September 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:Thinks - great to hear from you. I'm sending you an email. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 12:00, 16 September 2011 (PDT)
  
== Imagemap extension for buttons ==
+
== Appropedia Internship ==
  
 
Chris,
 
Chris,
  
I hope you are keeping well.
+
My name is Ashley and I am a very interested in your internship for the new year. I have over a year experience as an employed writer and am currently employed as a writer at Humboldt State University's Marketing and Communications Department. The position is only valid for students and I will be graduating this December from HSU with a degree in Journalism, Public Relations emphasis and Creative Writing minor. Therefore, I would be interested in joining the Appropedia team starting January, the new year.
  
I have installed the [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:ImageMap Imagemap] extension which supports buttons (images) linking directly to urls and interwikis rather than the image itself. I have used buttons on the front page of [http://www.greenlivingpedia.org Greenlivingpedia] if you want to check this out.  It might be worth using this functionality for Appropedia too, at least on the front page.  I have left a note about this for Curt too. Regards, [[User:Peter Campbell|Peter Campbell]] 07:13, 25 September 2007 (PDT)
+
I have a strong passion for environmental and social change as well as writing and would like to incorporate the two fields in my career. I understand that there is a lot of positive change happening around the world, but because there is a lack of stories and articles written about the changes, people are uninformed.
  
:Hi Guys,
+
Also, I know and am currently writing an article with Lonny Grafman, President of Appropedia about his last visit to the Dominica Republic with HSU students. I have done freelancing for the Eureka Times-Standard as well. I traveled to Japan and reported on the tsunami and earthquake disaster in May.
:We use an image map extension.  Currently we only use it with the highlighted project (see front page), but maybe we should start using it for buttons like on Greenlivingpedia (which looks great). Thank you so much for the update Peter. We really appreciate it. --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] 09:29, 25 September 2007 (PDT)
+
  
==George==
+
I would be honored to help assist in breaking this barrier. Please let me know if I can be of any assistance. If you would like to see examples of my work please visit my website, www.ashley-ward.com.
 +
 
 +
Thank you for your time and I look forward to hearing from you, Chris.
 +
 
 +
--
 +
Enjoy the day,
 +
 
 +
Ashley Ward
 +
 
 +
(760)855-2978
 +
{{email|wardashley90|gmail|com}}
 +
www.ashley-ward.com
 +
 
 +
Great! Replied by email. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 12:00, 16 September 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
== Technology Internship ==
 +
 
 +
My name is Brylie Oxley. I am interested in helping as a technology apprentice. I am an apprentice, currently, at the Woolman Semester in Nevada City, California. (http://woolman.org)
 +
 
 +
I have experience with Drupal, WordPress, Joomla!, MySQL, Apache, Bash/SSH, and am learning Python, HTML5, CSS, and JavaScript. I am also interested in mass communications technologies such as mesh networking, distributed social networks, low power FM, encryption, etc..
 +
 
 +
I am currently enrolled at the Peer to Peer University and am taking several courses relating to webcraft.
 +
 
 +
What may I do to help out with this project?
 +
--[[User:Brylie|Brylie]] 09:51, 15 September 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:There are definitely some ways you could help. Let me think on it and respond soon. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 12:00, 16 September 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
== Approtable class plans? ==
  
 
Hi Chris,
 
Hi Chris,
------------------------------------------------------------YOU WROTE:
 
I think this might be going too far, at least for some types of mosquitoes. For example the AedesWP mosquito which carries dengue fever, and prefers to breed in clean water. The rubbish and man-made containers of urban environments suit it very well, explaining why it is mainly an urban problem.
 
  
So, I would say that avoidance of water-logging is not useless, but certainly it is difficult, and not adequate to control many types of mosquitoes. --Chriswaterguy · talk 05:22, 28 September 2007 (PDT)  
+
Any plans to add an [[User talk:Chriswaterguy#Approtable class|Approtable class]] and/or modify the wikitable class?  --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 09:36, 22 September 2011 (PDT)
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------
+
:Thanks for the reminder! Rather than try to figure this out, I'll refer it to those more competent.
 +
 
 +
:Do you want to make the proposal on the Village Pump? Or alternatively point the relevant people here - that is, Lonny, Wesley and our two new tech interns, [[User:Agx]] and [[User:Brylie]]. (Very happy to have our new interns!). Wesley and Brylie are both interested in CSS, so maybe this is their field, but Lonny needs to sign off on it. Not sure who I've missed, but all welcome :-).
 +
 
 +
:My own reaction: yes, let's make a default table class that's nicer to look at. I'd prefer modifying the wikitable class, rather than having a different class to learn/remember. Doesn't have to be near perfect, just an improvement. At some point we'll want a new skin, so we can do more tweaking then. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 00:41, 25 September 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
::I'll post something at the pump.  --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 05:55, 25 September 2011 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
==Email==
 +
Hi Chris,
 +
I was wondering whether you received my latest emails (4 and 7 october).
 +
Let me know whether you passed it on to the appropriate person within Appropedia on the issue.
  
I do not dispute the statement/fact that Aedes mosquitoes prefer clean water for breeding. What I do not understand is how avoidance of manmade water logging help mosquito contol. It is true that Wikipedia, WHO, Health ministers of Union & state cabinets of India (& probably of other nations also), officers & doctors at various levels of health departments and Medical Colleges tell what you told. But I am not able to comprehend it.If you don't mind, kindly explain how it works out. Hope you will help me understand the phenomeon. (Avoidance of water logging may give a marginal decrease, but not worth the efforts behind it. More over with the efforts of last 110 years we could not make any substantial reduction in the incidence of mosquito borne diseases and associated sufferings, deaths & financial losses).
+
Thanks in advance,
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 01:11, 7 October 2011 (PDT)
  
Regarding the list of breeding places I do appreciate your thought, but most of them are reported in the Encyclopaedia Britanica which I read during the 1980's.
+
:Yes - we've discussed it, and I'll email you shortly. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 01:24, 7 October 2011 (PDT)
  
[[User:Georgedappilly|Shooter]] <small>[[User talk:Georgedappilly|talk]]</small> 02:36, 1 October 2007 (PDT) <small>[[Talk:GEM_mosquito_control_FAQ|talk]]</small>
+
== Google translation widget on main page ==
  
:This is a good discussion to have - will make time for it soon. I will attempt to answer it in Appropedia's mainspace (separate page), so it will be an exercise in jointly analysing and laying out the facts which hopefully others will find useful.  
+
Hey Chris the google translate widget looks great! The translation quality is not ideal but for a start is good enough I think. As the machine translation
 +
and contributions from users take place it will only improve. Thanks for that :) {{unsigned|Kostas|14 October 2011}}
  
::"More over with the efforts of last 110 years we could not make any substantial reduction in the incidence of mosquito borne diseases and associated sufferings, deaths & financial losses)."
+
Regarding where I found out about Appropedia, I can't remember to be honest. It could be the Open Manufacturing Google Group or The Zeitgeist Movement forum.
 +
==Compliments==
 +
Thanks for the compliments Chris
 +
--[[User:Kili|Kili]]
  
:Actually not only is there no improvement, but actually things have got worse. So many factors have changed, it would be a mistake to draw firm conclusions about just one factor like waterlogging. However it does seem logical that having more mosquito breeding grounds will make it easier for mosquitoes to breed; having less will make it harder; it follows that increasing rubbish (particularly plastic and foil) in recent years provides breeding grounds and would make the problem worse. Of course making a major reduction in the breeding places for Aedis mosquitoes would require a very big change in the culture of rubbish disposal in many places - and this major change is exactly the aim of certain programs like [[Recycling and dengue fever in Sukunan, Indonesia]] and the [[EWB-Australia]] supported project [http://www.ewb.org.au/newsletter/?nid=291%20but Yayasan Emmanuel Water Program] in Jakarta, Indonesia. It's hard work though, as you say.
+
== Pv project ==
  
:I see the rubbish-reduction approach and GEM as complementary - if there are very few places for mosquitoes to lay eggs except for the very convenient GEM water containers, that has to be good, and more effective than either approach on its own. I also see reducing rubbish as a good thing of itself. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] &middot; <small>[[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]</small> 10:09, 9 October 2007 (PDT)
+
Wouldn't it be better to put a navigation template in Template space?  ;-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 08:41, 5 December 2011 (PST)
  
== Notes to self ==
+
:I did a search in template space (using a search shortcut I set up in Firefox, then hit the redlink... when the template didn't work in Sandbox, I realized there was no Template prefix :-). --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 09:02, 5 December 2011 (PST)
  
Flood and earthquake resistant building:  
+
::I figured as much!  ;-)  RE: my talk - It could take less space up top without the Solar bar. Also, I was thinking "yellowish" for solar topics and "bluish" for water topics as a color theme. I'll make a "suggestion" in the template and then you can decide how you like it.  :-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 09:43, 5 December 2011 (PST)
* laws in cities in Florida - not allowed to build living quarters on the ground floor.  
+
* houses on coconut palm trunks - earthquake resistant.
+
  
[[Measures to stop global warming]] - do the things that also improve '''health''', as well as the economy. Make sense, and easier to sell to stakeholders. Actions for health:
+
:::Ah... I can go with that color scheme. Feel free to change that if you like - I'll focus on the other aspects though, as I get frustrated when choosing colors for web stuff, and I'm sure others can do better than me :-).
* [[air pollution]]
+
:::Re "It could take less space up top without the Solar bar" - I assume this is based on an earlier revision - the bit I ''think'' you're referring to has been removed. But feel free to hack away. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 20:35, 5 December 2011 (PST)
* encourage alternative [[transport]] methods - walking and cycling.
+
* Car pooling - is this less stressful and better
+
  
Actions for the economy:  
+
::::Yes, by the time I got here, you ''already'' made lots of updates.  I did some copyediting to make it render and edit correctly.  I also picked a deeper (but ''not'' too dark blue from [[User:RichardF#Blues|my Appropedia blue palettes]]. These are based on [[Wikipedia:User:RichardF/Palettes/Portals|my Wikipedia portal palette samples]], that are used as the [[Wikipedia:Template:Box-header]] samples. If you prefer yellow, I recommend the suggested (H60/S40/V100) change. Either is fine with me. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 06:07, 6 December 2011 (PST)
* Energy efficiency campaigns (the one in NYC was very effective, to the point that they canceled a contract with {{WP|Ontaria Hydro}}.
+
* Energy companies should have an incentive to reduce energy usage, not encourage it. This is already the case in some/many places.  
+
** Note the billion dollar kilowatt-hour - once a certain level of energy usage is achieved, the company is required by legislation to build another power plant.  
+
** Be aware of electricity conservation programs - subsidized insulation, lights...
+
* Keep car tuned.
+
* Recycling, composting - can be cost-effective depending on culture and population density?
+
  
[[Air conditioner]] efficiency - Carol's comment that it's cheaper to leave air-con on, as it's bringing the temp down takes more energy than keeping it cool. (This doesn't make sense to me, but check it out.)
+
:::::I think ''"yellowish" for solar topics and "bluish" for water topics'' makes good sense, but I'll focus on the rollout - I'll apply it with my bot to the project pages listed in the template, next time I get a block of time, maybe tonight. Glad that someone's putting thought into colors.
  
Questions (check snopes? myth busters?):
+
:::::Actually, with a reworded heading, this could go on the how-to pages as well... that would be done using an argument. Anyway, need to do a few hours paid work first... Thanks - this will be a good development for the site, I think. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 16:42, 6 December 2011 (PST)
*[[Electric light]]s - is it really more economical to leave them on, rather than turning them on when you leave the room?
+
*Keeping refrigerator full?
+
  
==George: source reduction ==
+
::::::Sounds good. I updated the yellowish color palettes for [[Portal:Energy]], [[Portal:Solar]] and {{tl|Solar navbox}}. I'll also get around to adding a selection of complementary box palettes at [[Template:Box-header-watch]] real soon now... --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 19:10, 6 December 2011 (PST)
'''Re: your suggestion to take discussion on source reduction to sep. page in main space'''
+
  
 +
==Arcata marsh==
 
Hi Chris,
 
Hi Chris,
  
Its very pleasing to hear your suggestion of moving the discussion on effectiveness of source reduction in mosquito control to a seperate page in main space. It may be of use to others, but I see it as of great use to me more than to others. I can get the views of many others connected with this area & can clarify my doubts and wrong concepts, if any. That is going to be a great help you will be doing. I am eagerly waiting for that page & discussion  to be open. If you feel I can open it, I shall certainly do. But if you open it users are likely to take it more seriously,I feel.
+
Just wanted to let you know some new useful articles and an idea for the Arcata Marsh (which is close to the Humboldt university I understand).  
  
However it be, I feel its going to be a very very lively & probably HOT discussion since its the guideline or directive of the ''WHO'' thats being questioned/debated. Let us wait & see how it is going to explode or get defused.
+
First of all, I finished up on the organic buildings concept (See [[Organic_buildings]] )
  
[[User:Georgedappilly|Shooter]] <small>[[Talk:GEM_mosquito_control_FAQ|talkFAQ]]</small> 02:31, 16 October 2007 (PDT) <small>[[User talk:Georgedappilly|talkUser]]</small>
+
Then, I also described some ideas on regards to sustainable fish farming/aquaculture. Generally, it revolves around the use of worms (red wigglers/earthworms and sandsworms, the latter being worms that are grown in salt water ponds) as a food to feed the fish and close the biological cycle. See [[Sustainable_fish_farming]]
  
==ECOSAN as IE==
+
Finally a small thought on a possibility for the Arcata Marsh: I was thinking that some small-scale agriculture could be practiced, ie by making use of [[chinampa]]s, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinampa
Hi Chris -- I think you are right ECOSAN is kind of like a small scale - home scale version of industrial ecology. Maybe we should have a new category for it and group it with the ZERI like thinking. On the other hand Ecosan could be practiced by small scale industry so it can fit.
+
--[[User:J.M.Pearce|Joshua]] 07:18, 18 October 2007 (PDT)
+
  
==PH261==
+
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 10:11, 6 December 2011 (PDT)
Thanks Chris --
+
  
Students are asked to put articles in categories -- but any non-participants are more than welcome to help categorize or improve pages. The history pages are extremely useful to me for still being able to grade student work.In most cases however, shortly after the pages are created they are graded. The final projects will be much more in depth -- what is up now is basically warm up -- to help the students get comfortable with wiki editing - while at the same time reviewing class material.
+
:Thanks - I hadn't heard of chinampas - interesting. In Arcata Marsh, I imagine the very strict health regulations in the US would prevent agriculture for human consumption, since it is actually a waste treatment area. (That's even though the water is relatively clean by then, and when I visited in 2008 I ate blackberries in the marsh, that were growing out of the water, but well above the water surface. It isn't like the old Asian practice of using [[night soil]].) If crops were grown that need to be cooked before eating, that would be safer, but even then, I think the health regulations would be an issue.
--[[User:J.M.Pearce|Joshua]] 07:37, 18 October 2007 (PDT)
+
:Interesting idea though - Lonny or any other Arcata people, if you're reading this, I'm interested in your thoughts. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 04:37, 6 December 2011 (PST)
  
Great catch and a spectacular learning opportunity for my students. It is really interesting that the main African American Enviro group tends to be against the majority of mainstream groups. All kinds of good material. E.g. That nuclear energy is "emission free" -- I have a paper coming out on the topic and embodied energy in 2008.
+
== New Sitenotice & Main Page redesign suggestion ==
  
== Template Encyclopedic ==
+
How about?...
  
Awesome rewrite of {{Tl|Encyclopedic}}.  So much more welcoming.  --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] 18:10, 28 October 2007 (PDT)
+
<center>
 +
Browse [[Appropedia:Portals#Selected portal introductions|Selected portal introductions]]
 +
</center>
  
== Solar cooking ==
+
&nbsp;:-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 11:43, 7 December 2011 (PST)
  
Chris -- Have we contacted SCI yet about getting [http://www.solarcooking.org/ their awesome archives] tied in with appropedia?  --[[User:J.M.Pearce|Joshua]] 07:02, 31 October 2007 (PDT)
+
:Just thinking out loud, [[Appropedia:Portals/Intros]] even could be placed on the Main Page, like in [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=User:RichardF/Sandbox&oldid=192702 this sandbox test]. :-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 12:43, 7 December 2011 (PST)
 +
:Here's [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=User:RichardF/Sandbox&oldid=192719 the latest test]. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 14:19, 7 December 2011 (PST)
 +
::Here's a complete [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=User:RichardF/Sandbox&oldid=192742 Main Page redesign] first draft! :-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 17:23, 7 December 2011 (PST)
  
== Heros ==
+
:::Interesting - there are a bunch of things I like about it. It looks much more organized and professional than our current page.
  
Sustainability needs Heros who are in the news and often and for good things.
+
:::I like having an intro to some of the portals - another variant is to have 1 or 2 or 3 of the portals, and rotate them every week.  
  
Jon Tester is the first Organic farmer elected to Congress.  
+
:::I also wonder if browsing would be better by having them in partial width boxes, more like the current "highlighted project" box in shape.
  
He is our poster boy.
+
:::But I'm also getting an itch for a shift from the culture/aesthetic that we've adopted since we began. I'm a fan of a very clean look, hence the [http://blogs.appropedia.org/ Appropedia skin], which Lonny was less keen on, though... The current skin on the blog is a compromise, too, as I originally chose different link colors which I thought looked nice, but there were concerns about readability). But I digress.  
  
That is why he has an article.
+
:::I came across some ideas closer to the "clean" look that I'm inclined to, and did some very rough proof of concepts at [[Appropedia talk:User experience]]. I can see a place for either dropdowns, or more extensive use of "more" links to expand sections. Be sure to check the Wikieducator page it draws from, too. Interested in your thoughts.  
  
PS the other article is dead weight.
+
:::Oh, and feel free to get other feedback on the main page redesign - I may be the outlier :-). I'll ask a friend or 3 today, as well... --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 18:35, 7 December 2011 (PST)
  
[[User:Baron|Baron]] 19:41, 6 November 2007 (PST)
+
::::Without looking at your links, here's [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=User:RichardF/Sandbox&oldid=192755 another version] I just tried.  This is a bit long. An obvious option, like you mentioned, is rotate portal intros on the Main Page, but the complete list still can be linked from the Sitenotice to [[Appropedia:Portals]].  What do you think about updating Sitenotice? --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 19:03, 7 December 2011 (PST)
  
 +
::::As far as rotation goes, a Selected page, project and portal could be rotated randomly within a purge box, eliminating the need for manual maintenance. The announcements, popular pages, hot topics & news could get more of the deliberate changes that way.  The remaining boxes are fairly static.  The blog skin looks too stark to me - too much white space. Personally, I find colors & photos more engaging.  The current Wikipedia skin is more nowish. I don't know what it would take to adopt something along that vein.  As far as the collapsible boxes go, I like them as navigation tools. That's why I made all the navboxes.  However, I prefer to see them at the bottom of articles for the most part, like at Wikipedia, or how I used them in some of the portal as topics boxes. Personally, I basically ignore the current Main Page. I really don't know who would want to go there more than once. Just about any organized presentation would be an improvement, but as usual, such things move ''way'' too slowly around here for my tastes.  ;-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 19:47, 7 December 2011 (PST)
  
==George has tried opening that new page you suggested==
+
Here's [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=User:RichardF/Sandbox&oldid=192774 a "Selected portal intro" version]. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 20:39, 7 December 2011 (PST)
  
Hi Chris,  
+
:If you don't like the blog, you wouldn't like http://zenhabits.net/ :-). I agree that pictures are engaging - any lack of pictures on the blog is because finding and adding pictures takes time. (Even the Zen Habits blog is like that - it's a minimalist blog, but the minimalism there is his own choice not to spend a lot of time on illustrations, rather than a preference for no images.)
  
I have made an attempt to open a new page in the main space as suggested by you for exchange of views & ideas on '''[[? Efficacy of source reduction in mosquito control ?|efficacy of source reduction]] as far as mosquito control is concerned'''.
+
:This is a part of the challenge - such different preferences. Different brain wiring, I think - how much we're bothered by "distractions" as opposed to starkness. (Or indeed, how easily distracted we are - I rate highly on that scale.) It'll be worth finding something that appeals to a range of people, and I think getting feedback will help with that.
  
Hope it is in order and that I have not crossed my limits. If anything is wrong on my part please point out so that I can correct it.
+
:I see there's a thread on village pump - will check there. Thanks for the work and initiative! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 16:57, 9 December 2011 (PST)
  
Hope that you are in receipt of my reply to your mail to my ID.
+
::Check out [[Appropedia:User experience/MainPageRedesign4|The Chriswaterguy candidate]]!  ;-)
 +
::Also, How about that Sitenotice suggestion?
  
With warm regards, George  [[User:Georgedappilly|Shooter]] 05:21, 13 November 2007 (PST)
+
<center>
 +
Browse [[Appropedia:Portals#Selected portal introductions|Selected portal introductions]]
 +
</center>
  
 +
::--[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 17:14, 9 December 2011 (PST)
  
==George registered in forums & has posted the efficacy issue==
+
:::I like that candidate :-). The colored lines create a nice sense of space, visually separating the chunks of text but in a low impact way. Will comment on Village Pump, tonight...
  
 +
:::Have been a bit preoccupied so far today, as I've stayed over at an old friend's place... who, interestingly, is a web designer (recently sold his firm but still works in the field). He made some helpful comments, particularly relevant to our CSS. He also mentioned the idea of using small 3D effects around the edge of the text area, like at http://energypedia.info.
 +
 +
:::I missed the earlier question about sitenotice, sorry. I'm not sure - I do like having it more compact, but I'd lean towards naming a small number of portals and then having a "more" link. The smallest number of key portal topics I can come up with is 4 (energy, agriculture, water and construction). But projects are important, which makes 5... still better than the 10 we have now, I think.
 +
 +
:::My thinking is that if someone is specifically looking for navigation links, they're likely to look on the left navbar. The sitenotice is more likely to catch their attention if it mentions something specific. That's my feeling, which could be wrong. More soon... editing on a suburban train now... I love modern technology :-). --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 22:42, 9 December 2011 (PST)
 +
 +
== Changing the displayed title ==
 +
 +
As it turns out, you can't change the <u>name</u> of a page's displayed title anywhere.
 +
 +
{{quote|
 +
It is possible to change the way a page title is displayed at the top of its page. This should only be done if the article meets the criteria for a non-standard title format, as detailed in the Article titles policy. The displayed title format is changed using the magic word DISPLAYTITLE. Under the present software configuration, only limited modifications can be made: the displayed title must still resolve to the true name of the page (i.e. if the displayed title is copied and pasted into a wikilink, the link should point to the original page). This means that DISPLAYTITLE can be used only for such modifications as changing an initial letter to lower case, adding initial colons, changing spaces to underscores, adding a space after a namespace prefix, and adding formatting (italics and bolding). The forbidden characters are not supported by DISPLAYTITLE.
 +
||[[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Page name#Changing the displayed title]]
 +
}}
 +
--[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 05:37, 12 December 2011 (PST)
 +
 +
:Ah - thanks for explaining that. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 17:46, 12 December 2011 (PST)
 +
 +
==Western, eastern, and other cultures==
 
Hi Chris,
 
Hi Chris,
 +
I recently read an article about the Ian Morris' book (see the section I wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_world#Western_vs_eastern_world ). This however got me thinking, ie at Appropedia, wikipedia, ... people ofthen talk about Western, Eastern cultures, East and West, ... but actually what do we mean by that and would it not be better to just talk of the continental union in question instead ? Ie if we refer the "The east", do we also refer to ie India, ... and if we refer to the "West", do we refer to all New World countries (ie including USA, Australia, New Zealand, ...). See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_world
  
I have registered in the appropedia forums and have posted the efficacy of souece reduction in mosquito control issue for discussion. Hope it will be fruitful and produce good results and take us to meaningful conclusions.
+
I think this is of particular importance, mostly since Appropedia seeks to preserve cultures (and I know since if allready been found being a bit too practical in the past, not taking too much notice to "cultural diversity"). Part of this however was also due to the fact that I (and many others I guess) don't really know how we need to distinguish the different cultures (if we take all differences into account it becomes too cumbersome/complicated, if we don't take enough of them into account we're labelled as "culturally indifferent").
  
Cheers    [[User:Georgedappilly|Shooter]] 01:13, 17 November 2007 (PST)
+
Hence, I was thinking we could differentiate the cultures by making a new article about the division of [[The world]] in the different cultures, and also integrate the differences (ie languages, ...) This too should allow people to prepare themselves much better for development work, in any country.
  
==Natural Sequence Farming==
+
I placed another useful image at [[Guide_for_arrivals_in_the_developing_world]]. We could also update
 +
[[Majority_world]], [[Culture and development]], ...
 +
 
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 06:46, 15 December 2011 (PST)
 +
 
 +
:I agree this is important, but it takes a lot of knowledge to tackle this subject well. Your fellow countryman, Geert Hofstede, did some excellent research on culture, and I'd recommend reading one of his books.
 +
 
 +
:The issue of Western, Eastern etc is just scratching the surface. My suggestion is to read, and read, and learn in any way possible, and much, much later to think about whether it's possible to contribute to a useful guide. There are many excellent books about such issues... I'm mainly familiar with those who wrote about Indonesian culture, especially Clifford Geertz and Franz Magnis Suseno, and also Benedict Anderson who not only wrote about Indonesia, but is also well known for his broader works on culture and sociology.
 +
 
 +
:Perhaps that doesn't seem relevant to do such a lot of reading, but it's actually highly relevant. It can be a case of "unknown unknowns," where the value is not obvious because we can't see critical gaps in our knowledge. I found reading Anderson and Hofstede helped to open up new areas of thought and raise questions that I never would have thought of.
 +
 
 +
:Hope that helps. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 07:22, 15 December 2011 (PST)
 +
 
 +
:: I was actually thinking of just implementing some updates to pages to make things a bit more accurate, yet also not that complicated.
 +
For example in stead of texts that speak of "Indonesian culture", we just say "culture of the Pacific union", where people speak of "for the advantage of the South", we just replace it with the continental union in question (the South referring mostly to all developing nations rather than say Africa which is located in the South), where people speak of "arab culture", we just say "culture of the African Union" (that even works to divide some mixed cultures arabic/european, ie Iran, then labelled culture of the Asian Union)
 +
 
 +
:: Another advantage of the approach is that with the division I made, there are only 6 cultures, so it's simple enough that people will use this division and not stick to their old confusing method of naming regions.
 +
 
 +
:: Also, for example, to make an object (like a pot, ...) look like belonging to a specific region, it can be decorated with 1 of the six patterns for each culture. If we start divisioning the regions further, we'll end up with multitudes of 6 or even far more, making it unworkable to decorate an object any more.
 +
 
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 02:12, 17 December 2011 (PST)
 +
 
 +
:The big problem is that the "confusing method" is more accurate. The best choice is not always a simple one.
 +
 
 +
:Also we must acknowledge the classification which is more familiar. I've never heard of the "Pacific union" and I don't know what it would describe. It sounds like a political entity, but none such entity exists. Also, Indonesian culture, Papuan culture and Maori culture are all very different. (Even cultures within Indonesia are quite different.) And an "Asian Union" is incredibly broad, considering Asia has more than 50% of humanity, so this term cannot be very meaningful. So I would go back to my suggestion to read, and read, and read, particularly those authors I mentioned. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 03:05, 17 December 2011 (PST)
 +
 
 +
:: The schematic I made and most "Unions" I listed don't exist at present (hence the -concept). Instead, I composed them of existing supranational organisations and continental unions in construction (see the legend). Also notice the shades of each particular color ("problem countries"); these indicate which countries are not yet part of the supranational organisations.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 06:56, 17 December 2011 (PST)
 +
 
 +
:::That's still very confusing, and very hypothetical, in terms of "unions" - interesting exercise, but the article needs something that better reflects existing reality. I removed the picture, [[Media:Continental Unions concept.png]], from [[Guide_for_arrivals_in_the_developing_world#Culture]], but left the map of languages there.
 +
 
 +
:::I don't mean to be discouraging - keep exploring, as it's a fascinating and endlessly complex area. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 05:14, 18 December 2011 (PST)
 +
 
 +
==Help on AT loom==
 +
Hi Chris,
 +
I've had the idea of the AT loom (http://www.appropedia.org/AT_loom ) since quite a while yet hadn't really never had the time to make a design of it. I recently started researching the loom idea some some and looked at various designs for the loom. However, I still have some fundamental questions and do not appear to be able to finish this design at present. I was wondering whether perhaps anyone at Appropedia has more knowledge on this and/or whether we could perhaps create a design using several Appropedia members, and or with people from Queens University/Humboldt State University. We may also contact some other organisations as http://www.sitra.org.in/plscservices.html, ...
 +
 
 +
First the idea:
 +
The idea is to make an automated or semi-automated loom so that textile production goes much faster (and cheaper) in comparison to a regular hand loom.
 +
 
 +
Look at http://www.cd3wd.com/cd3wd_40/vita/handloom/en/handloom.htm, 2 designs seem useful as baseline designs from which we can work on to make the loom automated. These designs are: the Free-standing loom and the Pit loom. I prefer the latter, which has been modified a bit (adding of 4 beams, redesign of beater; ie using rail or with a pivot point) We can look at some loom designs such as the AVL USA looms (http://www.avlusa.com/resources/library/ ), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberts_Loom , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancashire_Loom , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Loom to complete the loom with the missing parts.
 +
 
 +
Questions:
 +
* First and foremost: look how the weaving process happens (by means of 2 bars with textile wires which are continuously moved up/down in relation to one another, the latter by means of pulleys/treadles). Now the weaving is done by insterting wire (on a bobbin) trough a space (obtained by pulling the bars up/down. However, what I don't understand is how the wires don't collide with the box that guides this bobbin (bobbin if fixed to a "flying shuttle"). This is my main problem at present.
 +
 
 +
* Second question: I understand that we need to implement a primary axle (motor driven) of which the power is then divided over other axles (these latter axles performing the task of moving the bars noted above up/down, and moving the flying shuttle left/right (in sync with each other), and moving the beater forward and back (again in sync) and correcting the beater a bit every time (since the textile creeps up, meaning that the beater needs to move forward and back a little less every time), and winding up the textile roll. Additional tasks (for a fully automatic system) also include attaching the wire of the bobbin of the shuttle to the wire of the previous bobbin and replacing the bobbin (when empty) with another one, see the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Loom , http://www.hope1842.com/drapernorthroploom.html , http://lisahistory.net/hist104/pw/lectures/indust/3.htm I'm not sure however how exactly this division of power over the axles is done, and how the system as a whole needs to be designed.
 +
 
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 06:52, 17 December 2011 (PST)
 +
 
 +
:I guess that students studying design or (appropriate) technology would be best for this - you could ask directly to the instructors, and see what they think. I've looked at hand-operated looms (fairly complex but non-electrical machines) and didn't completely work them out. Thanks --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 05:33, 18 December 2011 (PST)
 +
 
 +
== Your user page ==
 +
 
 +
Hi, here's what I get (several times) when I try to view your user page.
 +
<pre>
 +
Internal error.html   
 +
If you are seeing this page, it probably means we are having server problems. Please click "Back" in your browser and try again.
 +
If the same problem keeps recurring, we apologize and ask you that you let us know (info at appropedia dot org) and try again later.
 +
If you were trying to get to the homepage you may want to try purging the cache by using this link -
 +
http://www.appropedia.org/Welcome_to_Appropedia&action=purge.
 +
Thank you, -- the Appropedia tech team
 +
</pre>
 +
 
 +
--[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 16:08, 17 December 2011 (PST)
 +
 
 +
:Were you able to view other pages while you were having trouble with my user page? If so, not sure what would cause that.
 +
 
 +
:Lonny's the one that keeps track of these problems... I think we're getting less of these problems, these days, but Semantic MediaWiki might be putting a strain on the servers. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 20:19, 17 December 2011 (PST)
 +
 
 +
::The server did have a very short (<5 min) hiccup this evening, but everything should be running smoothly again now. --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] 02:46, 18 December 2011 (PST)
 +
 
 +
:::I still get the same error message for [[User:Chriswaterguy]]. I don't get it for any other page. I'm using dial-up.  How am I supposed to check for postworthy quotes if I can't get to the page?!!! ;-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 06:57, 18 December 2011 (PST)
 +
 
 +
:::: I can also confirm this error when I try to access [[User:Chriswaterguy]]. In fact it seems to cause the rest of appropedia to slow down for me as well. --[[User:Tahnok|Tahnok]] 10:17, 18 December 2011 (PST)
 +
 
 +
::::: This could be because of the size of the page, but it is much more likely that it is an issue with the images, especially the pngs on this talk page. Appropedia has been having some problems with imagemagick and some pngs. --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] 13:40, 18 December 2011 (PST)
 +
 
 +
(Undent.) Found the problem, I think - it's this bit of code:
 +
<pre><rss number=10>http://chriswaterguy.livejournal.com/data/rss</rss></pre>
 +
 
 +
I [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=User%3AChriswaterguy&action=historysubmit&diff=195840&oldid=183467 removed it] and the page is working; then when I try to view the [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=User:Chriswaterguy&oldid=183467 previous version that gave the trouble], that had the rss tags, I get the internal error again.
 +
 
 +
I found it by removing bits from my user page then previewing. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 06:15, 19 December 2011 (PST)
 +
 
 +
== Vector style sheet and 3-D effects ==
 +
 
 +
Hi,
 +
 
 +
As you know, I've been trying out some color palette and 3-D effects at [[User:RichardF/vector.css]]. I also added a shadow to the wikitable. I updated the content shadow a bit to "box-shadow: 1px 4px 2px 0px #888888;". That gets the shadow off the green line between the content and sidebar. I've commented at [[Appropedia:Village pump#Proposal to update the wikitable class palette and establish site-wide palette guidelines]]. A nice tool, [http://css3generator.com/ CSS3 Generator], is an easy way to try out the fancy new CSS3 properties, like box-shadow. But you probably already know all this. ;-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 05:12, 5 January 2012 (PST)
 +
 
 +
:You greatly overestimate my knowledge of CSS :-). I'll check out the latest changes to the skin. Vector is definitely a good basis for a new skin, and I'm really happy to see you working on that, and working on colors and 3-D effects. Will look for more feedback... --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 18:41, 5 January 2012 (PST)
 +
 
 +
== Contentless pages ==
 +
 
 +
While playing with "Surprise me!," I've come across quite a few contentless pages. Using [[Special:ShortPages]], it's easy enough to find lots of blanked, botted-only and otherwise zombie pages. Is there any good reason they shouldn't just be deleted? --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 19:38, 6 January 2012 (PST)
 +
 
 +
:Thanks for picking that up - cleaning that up would be a big improvement! I wasn't aware of the ShortPages page either - I just deleted a few, of which my favorite was [[Pants]]. (Content: "appropriate?")
 +
 
 +
:Some of those pages are leftover from moves that were done with copy-paste (users not aware of the "move" function). At first I thought they should be properly redirected... but that's a big job to maybe save someone some Googling, so I guess deleting is good. I'd like to check the history before deleting. I find the Opera browser good for this kind of thing, as I can open stuff in the background with a single click... so I'll open a bunch more of these pages in Opera and do some more deleting... --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 04:53, 7 January 2012 (PST)
 +
 
 +
::Some of the blanking histories look to me like someone saying the project was "done" so we don't need this anymore. I didn't check to see if it was a cut-and-past move somewhere. I would just delete stuff like this, but I think I'm less tolerant than most in this regard. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 09:41, 7 January 2012 (PST)
 +
 
 +
:::I've given an update at [[Appropedia:Village_pump#Pages_with_no_useful_content|the pump]]. Thanks again! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 21:00, 7 January 2012 (PST)
 +
 
 +
:And all those "Introduction" headings...are they on purpose as an Appropedia style thing, or could the bot zap them? ;-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 04:41, 7 January 2012 (PST)
 +
 
 +
::Zap 'em! I do :-). I suppose you'd approve if I spent a half hour and did a big zap of Introduction headers with my bot? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 04:53, 7 January 2012 (PST)
 +
 
 +
:::A simple search on [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=%3D+Introduction&go=Go "= Introduction"] at Page text matches finds lots of them. I'll remove the headings as I find them too. ;-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 09:41, 7 January 2012 (PST)
 +
 
 +
:::Also, lots of pages have inputboxes that preload pages with the built-in Introduction section. I just deleted it from [[:Category:Projects]] --> {{tl|Projectsinputbox}} --> {{tl|NewProjectspage}}. Obviously, that's a big reason why it's around so much... and why I asked.  Do you know how prevalent these preloads are? --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 09:56, 7 January 2012 (PST)
 +
 
 +
::::Ahhh. They get used a lot in Lonny's classes, & maybe by others as well. I'll leave a note for him... [[User talk:Lonny #"Introduction" headers|here]]. If Lonny's cool with it, I'll zap them with my bot sometime. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 21:00, 7 January 2012 (PST)
 +
 
 +
:::::Okay, as I play more rousing rounds of [http://www.appropedia.org/Special:Random "Surprise me!] I'll check whether any intros make sense and remove them if they don't. I've also noticed several "empty" sections, like "See also" with nothing in it. I think the preloads can make new editors think a section should be there, even when they have nothing to say. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 09:26, 8 January 2012 (PST)
 +
 
 +
::::::I think there's also a big element of "I'll fill that in later" - which rarely follows through. I confess I've been known to leave a header like that in myself, as a hint, but I realize now it doesn't work well... having an {{tl|add links}} notice makes more sense, but I'm not sure that works either... so now I'm inclined to removing the section if no "See also" links spring to mind.
 +
 
 +
::::::We could add an instruction to the preloads asking editors to delete blank sections... but there are already more instructions than 99% of people are likely to read, so I'm not sure of the best approach, other than working on very concisely written instructions in the preloads. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 06:38, 9 January 2012 (PST)
 +
 
 +
:::::::If the preloads are used mostly by students of Appropedia instructors, then I think the results mostly depend on what the instructors say to the students and the good examples they show them anyway. ;-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 07:32, 9 January 2012 (PST)
 +
 
 +
== Semiprotecting Welcome Talk page ==
 +
 
 +
[[Talk:Welcome to Appropedia]] has been spammed dozens of times by anons just since I've been an admin. What do you think of semiprotecting it? --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 08:50, 9 January 2012 (PST)
 +
 
 +
:In theory it's a place where some people will go to leave a comment. I think Ill make a page on the blog for inviting comments, then put that link prominently at the top of [[Talk:Welcome to Appropedia]]. Then I'll be comfortable with semi-protecting it.
 +
 
 +
:Tomorrow perhaps... time to sleep now. Thanks for the suggestion! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 07:01, 10 January 2012 (PST)
 +
 
 +
== No, you couldn't possibly Know... ==
 +
 
 +
This is one of those times where the term Co-incidence is 'lacking': I signed on as Betaclamp just and only after my request for "Patman" was turned down. Pat. Mystery solved - Patman re-directs to User Betaclamp! I saw something that made me think that you were 'Patman'!
 +
 
 +
:Hmm - glad it worked out, Patman/Betaclamp! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 03:56, 11 January 2012 (PST)
 +
 
 +
:Hmm - my same response - When I saw underneath "CO2" that a contributor was Patman is when I thought that it had to be you.
 +
 
 +
I linked to openCCS - thanks for that - As far as I could see you have the engineering in hand if not well in hand, What I did not see, doesn't mean not there, was the equally problem and challenge filled Area Of Biological Carbon Capture and Storage - I'd volunteer for that - keeping within what I know. Cheers ~ [[User:Betaclamp|Betaclamp]] 22:03, 11 January 2012 (PST)
 +
 
 +
::Are you referring to "bio-energy with carbon capture and storage"{{w|Bio-energy with carbon capture and storage}}? That's within the scope of openCCS, as well as Appropedia. Or biological capture of carbon in the form of wood, or algal oil, or other biomass? That's definitely within the scope here - not part of the core scope at openCCS.
 +
 
 +
::In any case, all these things are important, and very welcome at Appropedia... of course Wikipedia already covers the subjects, but we can go into more depth and analysis here. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 06:26, 12 January 2012 (PST)
 +
 
 +
Hello cont'd: How's everything? I looked up Wiki:"bio-energy with CCS" - so much Reference material supporting a small substance? It Certainly does not mention those items that you did, such as Algae [photosynthesis] and Biomass [fermentation]. Pax ~ [[User:Betaclamp|Betaclamp]] 00:11, 14 January 2012 (PST)
 +
 
 +
==Sustainable supermarket==
 +
Hi Chris,
 +
replied at [[Talk:Sustainable supermarket]], look into it, the subject I actually wanted to tackle with this article actually runs allot deeper than what one expects, and also relates to appropriate waste disposal and appropriate food production systems.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 04:38, 16 February 2012 (PST)
 +
 
 +
== Open Carbon Capture and Storage ==
 +
How about the Northern Hemisphere's Prairies taking the brunt of Global Warming because the majority of the ability of the Earth to absorb Heat is within Her Oceans, and most of Her Oceans are in the Southern Hemisphere.
 +
 
 +
[[Carbon dioxide]] ready for inspection: if you remove the Stub I'll move on. Take care ~ [[User:Betaclamp|Betaclamp]] 22:41, 17 January 2012 (PST)
 +
 
 +
:Interesting point about northern hemisphere prairies. Definitely relevant - if you wanted to find at least one good source for that, and use that for the info and reference, that would be great. (Not saying you have to - just that that would be cool.)
 +
 
 +
:I've removed the stub tag. Actually, anyone could remove that, including you, but I did it and took the opportunity to add some sections and rearrange & tweak a bit. Thanks!
 +
 
 +
:There's much more to say about CO2, of course, but that's a good start. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 23:26, 17 January 2012 (PST)
 +
 
 +
== Thanks! ==
 +
 
 +
Thanks for the tips re category mark-up––I'll do my best. :) [[User:Felicity Tepper|Felicity Tepper]] 20:17, 17 February 2012 (PST)
 +
 
 +
== Howdy ==
 +
 
 +
Thank you for the kind welcome, Oh Liquid One. ;)  Let me know if you have any suggestions re: the I/O boxes.  --[[User:Plotthickens|Plotthickens]] 20:24, 19 February 2012 (PST)
 +
 
 +
== Aircraft images ==
 +
Hi Chris,
 +
 
 +
I recently noticed that you removed some images of my designs ( File:Single person airplane.JPG , File:Single person airplane 2.JPG,  ). I was wondering whether you could either temporarily or undefinitly restore them, since although I did make a copy of my first design, I did not backup all of the intermediate updates I did since then. I spend allot of time on these aswell, and so I don't wish to lose the work I did so far.
 +
 
 +
I do understand your point though, and I myself was a bit concerned about safety aswell, this is btw why I added the "http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=AT_CAD_Team/Aircraft&oldid=200234#Safety " -subsection (I did keep in mind that if an aircraft fails during launch or in flight, that would be a very dangerous matter). Hence, I wish to point out that some improvements regarding safety were done
 +
* First, most designs are based on existing aircraft, and were simply modified, hence we actually reuse the experience of real-life, proven designs, and experienced organisations
 +
* For the freighter aircraft is was thinking of making it remote-controlled, so the "pilot" would never be in danger, even if the whole thing plummets. The DIY UAS is btw also remote-controlled.
 +
* The AT autogiro has been altered since then (weight issue solved with image update 2), and autogyro's are actually very safe anyway (they allow immediate autorotation when the motor fails, meaning that they can never plummet to the ground if the motor fails, unlike helicopters). There are DIY builders of autogyro's btw that make their autogyro's even without making or following any plans beforehand (ie Gyro Jake of Silverwings forum, and many others). The microlight also won't plummet to the ground when the motor fails but simply glide slowly towards the ground.
 +
 
 +
Please either restore the images temporarily so I can back up the latest version of them, and take over the text. I was actually planning on making a 3D version of them soon (and probably improve the designs further as I go about this). If you would agree on restoring the images indefinitly, I would remove the links alltogether in the article so that the images can not be picked up accidentally be anyone. In addition, I'll check again whether the speculative and  status-design tages are added (I frequently forget this, being at that moment only focused on getting the image right).
 +
 
 +
Finally, on regards of the not thinking that study and experience important for this kind of work, that's not exactly accurate. I do think that's important, but I can not school/teach myself the entire theory of flight, ... just to make a design. I allready use proven designs as a basis (itself the result of decades of knowledge) and in any case, designs need to be tested in the field (which I can not do). The only thing I can do is try to make it as good and as accurate as I can, and leave field-testing to others.
 +
 
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 00:43, 23 February 2012 (PST)
 +
 
 +
:Thanks for your reply. I've emailed you the text and files - for now I personally prefer that these be hosted somewhere else, but I will [[A:Village pump #Speculative and potentially dangerous content|seek comments from the community]].
 +
 
 +
:Re "I can not school/teach myself the entire theory of flight, ... just to make a design." - I actually think that this is necessary to make a good design. Aeronautical engineers must study hard for 4 years or more to be qualified, and after that they are not yet considered experienced. A degree is not always necessary to be able to contribute to design work, but equivalent competence is not possible without much experience and/or study. I suspect Gyro Jake of Silverwings forum had a few years experience and learning before building autogyros in this way, and is aware of what to look for. I also don't know enough about the safety record of such an approach, even with experienced autogyro builders - Gyro Jake may not have had a serious accident, but a sample size of 1 is not enough to base safety standards on.
 +
 
 +
:Some past autogyro designs have been "fatally flawed with an offset between the centre of gravity and thrust line, risking a Power Push-Over (PPO or bunt-over) causing death to the pilot and giving gyroplanes in general a poor reputation - in contrast to Cierva's original intention and early statistics. Most new autogyros are now safe from PPO."{{w|Autogyro#Bensen Gyrocopter}} - i.e. if a mistake is made in design, the aircraft is no longer safe. That's just an example, and why one must be very careful about making assumptions in issues of safety. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KmuzvGFsYw This crash], just one of those on Youtube, had a good outcome for the pilot, but I wouldn't call it completely safe, with blades disintegrating and flying apart.
 +
 
 +
:It's the same in many fields. I would not go to a yoga class taught by someone who has been learning yoga for only 5 years. I would be horrified if a nuclear power plant was operated by someone with a 6 month diploma and no experience.
 +
 
 +
:That's all for now - work to do. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 21:02, 23 February 2012 (PST)
 +
 
 +
::Thanks for mailing the images and text, I moved it to a Google text document and linked it from my blog. You can thus remove the images if you wish. It would be perhaps better in the future to use an automated system so as when you tag an image for deletion, there's a 1 week delay before the system actually deletes it (at wikimedia commons there's also a 1 week span between tagging and actual deletion. That way, if the owner of the file still needs to secure it, it can be easily done.
 +
 
 +
Re the potential dangerous nature of images such as on aircraft; actually I think that any schematic showing the construction of something is potentially dangerous. For example the ISF rice huller was a dangerous thing aswell, if improperly used, and so are allot of other devices (ie workshop equipment, disc saws, ...) Even detailing on how to built a cake can be dangerous, if the person you're giving the cake recipe to has never learnt to use his cooking fire. I think we just need to put up a warning and disclaimer on the site stating that we are not responsible for any injury resulting from replicating desgns, ... Also, some designs can be userfied/images can be un-linked from articles.
 +
 
 +
Re Gyro Jake; actually no, he didn't have any schooling on the matter, he was a electrical engineer I believe, so having little to do with aeronautics. He btw allready had several engine failures during flight, but since the autogyro has autorotation, he never really "crashed". (See Mad Scientists show at NGC ). Besides this guy, there btw are many other that built autogyro's (again without much experience I believe, autogyro's can btw be operated without any (pilot) license at all (atleast in the USA, in other countries it may be different or alike -autogyro's and other very lightweight aircraft don't need any license at all).
 +
 
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 10:43, 24 February 2012 (PST)
 +
 
 +
 
 +
== Guidance for Beginner ==
 +
Hi Chris: Hopefully this will work. When I first signed on, there was a link to guidance on what to put on our profile page. I neglected to click it when I first spotted it, and could never find it again.  Could you help? Thanks, Diane Emerson http://www.appropedia.org/User_talk:Diane_Emerson
 +
 
 +
:Answered on your talk page - thanks for asking. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 22:02, 21 March 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
==Sketchup Beginner Manual==
 +
Hi Chris,
 +
just wanted to inform you that I sent a mail to your old adress (singkong at gmail). I assume you don't check this mail anymore, but I sent it to this due to the size of the attachments.
 +
 
 +
Then, I was thinking about something else: although I very much oppose animal husbandry (a form of agriculture), I was thinking on the issue that some areas naturally have/had open grasslands and are also incapable of being used for making other (plant-based) protein-foods (ie tofu, ...) As such, in this specific situation, it may be suitable of keeping cattle. I still dislike non-native animals though, but since ie cows, ... are used around the world (ie Holstein cows are used in Europe aswell as in African countries), I think this can be improved. I'm looking into the native meat animals that can consume grass and perhaps make a global map of it , see
 +
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_domesticated_meat_animals
 +
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ungulates
 +
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beef_cattle
 +
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle
 +
 
 +
I'll perhaps improve the [[cattle]] article aswell, ie negative effects of animal husbandry haven't been mentioned:
 +
* creates huge methane emissions (90 millon tons worldwide, appearantly 510 million tons is sufficient to kill everyone on the planet, ie due to climate change)
 +
* can transfer disease, unappealing practice of slaughtering
 +
* wasteful method (energy is lost in conversion of grass to meat)
 +
* very labour-intensive and (depending on what it's compared against, low-yield) method of protein production
 +
* can disrupt the local ecosystem by taking up allot of space and prventing the housing of other animal and plant species
 +
* ethical considerations by certain individuals
 +
 
 +
[[Special:Contributions/91.182.12.65|91.182.12.65]] 00:06, 14 May 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:Hi KVDP (I assume it's you, though you weren't logged in). Those are important issues, and it would be great to have them on the [[cattle]] page. Some points:
 +
:* Re "very labour-intensive" - I'm sure this is not true for some cattle farms, e.g. those in the US or Australia, where labor costs are high.
 +
:* Re protein production - to make a fair comparison, meat should be compared with producing the various vegetarian options. E.g. if chickpeas or soybeans are grown, the yield (in weight per unit area) is lower than for grain; so it's not really the whole picture when some people talk about how many kg of grain it takes to produce a kg of meat.
 +
:* I'm still a fan of a healthy and balanced vegetarian or mostly vegetarian diet - but I'm interested in making accurate arguments for and against.
 +
:I got your email - I wasn't quite sure how to respond, and I'm very short of time at the moment. (I'd like to be one of those super-efficient people, sometimes, but not sure how they manage it.) Looking at it again...
 +
:* I'm still very wary of airplane designs, especially without working prototypes (but as long as it's marked as speculative, I wouldn't rule them out).
 +
:* Re the .skp files, I don't know what I can do with them... Does Box.com have an option for sharing files openly? :Cheers --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 07:12, 14 May 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:: Hi Chris,
 +
finished up on it, see [[Animal husbandry]]
 +
some ideas that may still be done:
 +
* new article [[List of appropriate draft animals]], which have lists the species that have the male animal used as a draft animal, and the female as dairy animal, perhaps that selected species can be allowed here, ie I made a list of draft horses once, they may be considered (so next to the wild horse)
 +
* new article [[List of appropriate animals for transport]], same thing: ie wild horse, wild ass (ancestor of donkey ;)), camel, reindeer
 +
 
 +
BTW:
 +
* re cattle farms are always very labour intensive, as they generally feed with grain, ... (not grass), read article. That is however if you include the work for the growing the feed.
 +
* re protein production: you only focus on the calories then, however calories can be attained from other sources aswell (carbohydrates, ie grain), read article
 +
* I'm actually also mostly a fan of vegetarian food, however it's not always possible (not all crops are native in specific regions) perhaps we can cooperate with ie ARKive, and other orgs if we focus immediatelly on growing wild animal species, that would be a win-win situation, and the animals could be released into the wild once we no longer need them (once suitable crops are found for the region)
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 07:45, 15 May 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:Grain isn't labor intensive in Western countries - look how the proportion of people working in agriculture plummeted during the 20th C.
 +
:Re draft animals & animals for transport, a full comparison with non-animal alternatives would be valuable, including calculations of total cost and resource use.
 +
 
 +
:: re labour intensity --> I know that due to the increased use of machinery (ie harvesters), allot less people are required to grow grain. However, grain still requires allot of processing (cutting, beating/dehusking, may require pesticide use, water, ... ) So it is nevertheless very energy intensive, labour intensive (though not ''human'' labour intensive) Regardless, what I mostly mean is that a additional crop is often grown to feed the animal at all, and this should be prevented. If the animal is only fed with grass (which is a crop humans can't digest), the issue is completely eliminated.
 +
:: re draft animals --> It will always be more of a hassle to use animals for agricultural work, and may even be more costly than when you would use a efficient traction engine (ie the AT traction engine design I made, see article here ate Appropedia). The total cost and resource use thus not need to be calculated out, it will probably be negative compared to the At traction engine. However, the advantage of draft animals is that in many remote locations in the developed world, there simply aren't any workshops nor any skill to make and/or repair such agricultural tools. Animals that have multiple uses (ie dairy animal, draft animal, sometimes even personal transportation) can thus be a suitable option.
 +
 
 +
:: Can I upload the images of the single person airplane (image 1 and 2) as noted in the mail ?
 +
:: re the skp-files: yes a Box-account would allow the sharing via FTP (a personal link needs to be placed on the article). I once used it for some other projects, I (or you) would then need to make a new account though, I'll look into it and also look at how much megabyte can be shared for free.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 11:45, 16 May 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:::: See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_online_backup_services
 +
 
 +
:::Agreed, in specific contexts, draft animals make sense - certainly a more minor use on a global scale, though, and the context should always be noted when discussing it in an article.
 +
:::Re the airplane images, if they're only to be used in your userspace or in pages marked {{tl|speculative}}, that would be allowable. My personal preference would be for them to be uploaded to a separate site, such as a blog, dedicated to such ideas. Thanks. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 16:18, 17 May 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
== Re: Welcome ==
 +
 
 +
Thanks for the welcome. I responded on [[User talk:Mike Dillon#Welcome from Chriswaterguy|my talk page]]. [[User:Mike Dillon|Mike Dillon]] 12:34, 16 April 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
== Service learning category cleanup ==
 +
 
 +
{|
 +
|-
 +
| valign=top | Hi, are you willing to do some cleanup on this category? Capitalization, duplication, and empty cats posing as articles all could use some work. :-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 11:54, 24 June 2012 (PDT)
 +
| valign=top style="width:300px;" | <categorytree showcount="on">Service learning</categorytree>
 +
|}
 +
 
 +
Cool - I'm planning to get my bot going again within the next two weeks, and category moving is the first task. Is your work waiting on this being done? (If so I'll aim to be quicker about it.) --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 16:57, 24 June 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:Thanks.  I'm not waiting on anything for this cleanup.  I just thought it would look nicer for whatever recruiting you have in mind, now that I ''finally'' got something out there for you to use!  :-)  --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 17:08, 24 June 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
::And the timing is excellent - thank you! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 17:11, 24 June 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
== Rotating service learning images ==
 +
Hi, for the fun of it, I added rotating service learning images on the Welcome to Appropedia intro at [[Welcome to Appropedia/Intro]].  Feel free to revert if you can't take it. :-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 09:46, 27 June 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:I like it! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 10:27, 27 June 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
::Cool.  :-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 11:03, 27 June 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
==Living walls==
 +
Hi Chris,
 +
can you move [[Living walls]] to either [[Green walls]] or [[Green wall]] ? I updated the article so it's now finally correct (it was very inaccurate before). KVDP
 +
 
 +
:: perhaps it's useful to write a little bit of the ease of use/installation. I think the DIY pallets are most useful for living walls as they don't need to be built unto the wall, rather simply placed next to it (sloped against the wall). For most of the walls, a green façade seems most useful, if it isn't intended to grow vegetables, ... but simply for the ecologic effect (co² absorption, cooling, ...).
 +
 
 +
:Done - thank you.
 +
:Just FYI, the standard English word is facade, with the regular English c - accents are very rare in English. But apparently façade is also sometimes used in English, so I learned something also.  --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 08:12, 1 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
Re [[Mosquito_control]]
 +
See #Applications_of_organic_or_chemical_pesticides
 +
Appearantly there are some organic pesticides that are completely effective, whereas DDT is (in certain areas) 100% ineffective (ref: Quest magazine April 2011) So we could possibly rewrite the [[Use_of_DDT_in_fighting_malaria]] article (as it is no longer of much value, ie surpassed by these organic alternatives)
 +
 
 +
I btw also came across the photo's by Daniel Lainé (http://creativeroots.org/2009/05/the-kings-of-africa-photographed-by-daniel-laine/ ) It seems to me that it may be useful for Appropedia to contact these people. Most of them are no longer as important as they were before, and are now quite willing to be contacted and willing to listen to new techniques (ie on farming, ...) They still have allot of local influence and probably all have access to internet (see btw this docu: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-11500370 on a low-level official (Oluomo)). So, if Appropedia contacts them, it could pass on allot of useful offline content (ie manuals on agriculture, ...) That way, we could have allot more influence in real-life society. Note btw that similar kings/officials also exist in other regions (ie Oceania, ...).
 +
 
 +
I noticed we have no article on the [[Green Revolution]] nor on [[Plant breeding]]/selective breeding or "domestication of fauna and flora". I think that an article especially on the latter would be useful here, to be able to explain in articles that selective breeding can have benefits aswell as disadvantages (see [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Revolution Wikipedia on the Green Revolution).  The most notable problems are decreased resistance to pests/diseases (due to the hastened and more intensive growth) and requirement of additional fertilisers (the latter isn't a huge problem and natural fertilisation can be used, yet needs to be timed better -earlier- than chemical fertilisation). Note btw that due to this, cultivars of crops often exist for both organic farming and "traditional" farming. The first type are often better (more disease-resistant), yet still feature intense fruiting.
 +
 
 +
I btw also got reminded of another idea: the use of (non-standard) fonts at wikis. Perhaps that's possible ? It would allow us to give a more authentic/archaic feel to Appropedia (I for example like the fonts that look like they're "written by hand", see www.ffonts.net/ , www.dafont.com/ , www.1001freefonts.com/ , www.urbanfonts.com/ , www.fontspace.com/ , www.abstractfonts.com/ 
 +
 
 +
[[User:KVDP]] 08:08, 3 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
There seem to be much more options for showing non-standar fonts now, the easiest seems to be font face, which requires a script like:
 +
 
 +
<nowiki>@font-face {font-family:
 +
'Webfontname'; src:
 +
url ('Webfontname.ttf');}</nowiki>
 +
 
 +
The font is then downloaded automatically from a server
 +
 
 +
:Okay, interesting - where does that code go?
 +
 
 +
:I'm not very familiar with fonts. We have other priorities in site development for now, due to limited time & funds, but when we do have more options, we'll need to have some guidelines on where to use non-standard fonts. In userspace and for projects they could be used more freely. For topic articles there would need to be some agreement. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 06:05, 5 December 2012 (PST)
 +
 +
== Gas fuels ==
 +
Hi Chris,
 +
I read a rather important new production method of [[syngas]] and I actually now find the fuel so important that I think we would need a page on it. I would also like to mention the fuel at [[Comparison_of_alternative_ICE_fuels]]. Before that can happen though, we need more info on the storability of the fuel (ie does it require cold, or pressurization, and how long can it be stored ?) Please read the method (I posted it at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syngas#Using_carbon_dioxide_and_hydrogen ) I knew of syngas for a while, but due to the new production method, it's now very ecologic (uses waste CO²) Syngas is btw also used to make a variety of things (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biobased_economy )
 +
 
 +
Another thing I read is that [[methane]] can appearantly be produced for running machinery/vehicles on. Indeed methane is CH4 and looking into it, it seems that something called the Sabatier process exists, which basically combines CO² and hydrogen (H). See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabatier_process I'm not too sure whether we want to use this though since it's a very potent GHG-gas (breaks down when burned, so that's generally not a problem; yet it can be ie in case of leaks). Hydrogen can be made at home using electricity and is even in its current state a useful fuel, yet has many problems regarding the storage. Methanogenesis also exist (doesn't use electricity at all), but then this doesn't allow to store the electricity ie generated using PV-panels, ...
 +
 
 +
Next revolves around the 2-way transfer which I mentioned could/should be the basis for durable development (see User_talk:Chriswaterguy#Guide_for_arrivals_in_the_developing_world ). Appearantly, I share this view with Patricia Z.R. Davis of [[Community Centred Conservation]]. She calls it "[[environmental mortgage]]" (a form of microfinancing in which villagers attain a fund -for schooling, community services and basic health care- after abiding a set of rules protecting the local nature See also http://www.c-3.org.uk Perhaps it can be mentioned at an article somewhere.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 02:38, 16 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:Hi KVDP,
 +
:I'll leave the syngas with you for now - have some other articles and tasks I need to work on. Aren't the only practical sources of syngas to date from fossil fuel, though? In which case there is still a GHG impact, and mining impact.
 +
:One advantage of reforming fossil fuels is that H2 can be produced and the CO2 can be separated and captured - which is good if there's a CO2 reservoir available to put it in. But I don't know if that counts as "syngas". --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 04:46, 16 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
::Nope, syngas isn't synfuel (confusing I know). I knew of synfuel for a while too, after having seen a documentary about Ebensee (it was used historically as an aviation fuel, in German WW2 airplanes, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_fuel#History ) In general, fossil fuel reforming makes synfuel from fossil fuel (or natural gas) + hydrogen ( see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil_fuel_reforming ) What I'm describing though, syngas, is made from hydrogen and CO (or CO after having treated CO² with microwaves). CO² can be attained from fossil fuel power plants, or perhaps even simply attained from the air. Hydrogen can be made from water (using electricity). This in effect makes a completely emissionless fuel.
 +
 
 +
I've updated [[Comparison_of_alternative_ICE_fuels]], I'll see whether I'll make some stubs on the other suggested subjects.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 02:33, 17 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
Iv' done allot of extra editing, can you move [[Alcohol fuels]] (see the page for the new name it needs to be given) and [[Algae fuel]]. Cookies don't work anymore, so I can't log in to do it myself.[[Special:Contributions/91.182.170.224|91.182.170.224]] 06:25, 19 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:Can you make a stronger case for the move? Vegetable oil as fuel is a special case, and even then, it could easily have the "as" removed. Are there other cases? I wouldn't worry about it - the existing page names make perfect sense.
 +
:Don't use the {{tl|move}} as it doesn't exist and we have to click edit to see the comment. Thanks. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 07:10, 19 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:: In regards to the renamings: "algae as fuel" seems to be more in line with ie other articles ie "Vegetable oil as fuel". Making this latter article into "vegetable oil fuel" wouldn't be very good as it needs to be split up into ie waste vegetable oil, straight vegetable oil (SVO), ... in addition the first also sounds like the refined fuels (ie biodiesel, ...) are incorporated, which can be done but that would make the article very confusing and long.
 +
:: Alcohol fuels too is more in line with the other articles.
 +
 
 +
::Now for some more important changes. Editing some more pages tody, I found that we don't yet have an article on [[Solar_thermal_collector]]s. perhaps we can redirect it to a category containg several solar thermal collector projects ?
 +
 
 +
:: I did some updates to the [[comparison of motors]] article. Appearantly, gas turbines /biofuel turbines are allot more efficient than using internal combustion engines for the purpose of stationary power production (could be 30-40% more efficient, so that's huge, the only downside is higher price/difficulty of manufacturing). I was wondering whether we could make a page on it. I'm focusing mostly on DIY turbines using a pulse jet, we should create a list on these (different designs) and also include a list of commercial manufacturers (ie http://www.bladonjets.com/ ?, ...). see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_turbine#Amateur_gas_turbines and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_turbine#Microturbines These aswell as converted car engines make up a huge part in creating local electricity production/distribution systems, so an article would be very beneficial.
 +
:::done
 +
 
 +
::[[Charcoal]] has been moved to [[Biochar]]. Although I do see that splitting up the articles allows for more info per page, I think it's quite confusing, people generally don't understand the difference between biochar and charcoal, and will start to look for the differences in production (I too did this before I edited the articles, and even found some bogus info, see http://www.energeticforum.com/agriculture/6041-biochar-vs-charcoal-vs-ash.html ). Also, I think we don't need a page on every subject, for example [[pyrolysis]] can be made into a simple redirect to http://www.appropedia.org/Biomass#Combustion_theory , ... I hence propose to simply clean up the article so that it reads nicer and so that it contains less text (condensing the info)
 +
 
 +
::: I made seperate pages for biochar and charcoal now, just wanted to let you know. I think I made the changes in such a way that you will now be pleased with it.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 07:16, 3 August 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
::::Cool - that looks like a decent start. Thanks - --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 07:25, 3 August 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:: I'm wondering whether we can't mention fertilisation using charcoal in ie the [[desertification]] page (which btw can use some extra info from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desertification aswell). It should probably also be mentioned in permaculture-related pages. I've also been thinking on the idea of moving substances in the over-fertilised soil in developed countries (ie house lawns, ...) using biochar, ... to poor soils in developing countries. Perhaps it can be mentioned somewhere. I have heard by many people that (most) lawns in developed countries are indeed overfertilised and overfertilisation also provides problems (ie it allows too much weeds to grow). Making the soil only suitable to specific plants reduces the need of weeding and creates a more diverse (micro-)biomes. As we would use lawns, it's a bit different from simply exporting manure (which is allready being done, see ie http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/kaliningrad-rejects-pig-dung-angers-belgium/240121.html )
 +
 
 +
As a last thing, perhaps someone could take a look at the sidebar. The sidebar seems to jump to below the article text in Appropedia (it's difficult to navigate Appropedia with this flaw).
 +
 
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 01:43, 26 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
== Uncategorized categories ==
 +
 
 +
Are you interested in mopping up the [http://www.appropedia.org/Special:UncategorizedCategories Uncategorized categories]?  :-)  --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 11:52, 10 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
 
 +
* [[:Category:Project testing]]
 +
* [[:Category:Project Testing]]
 +
--[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 21:07, 10 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:Thanks - have added to [[User:Chriswaterguy/Wikignome/Categories to rename|my list of categories to merge]].
 +
 
 +
:Re [[:Category:Developers toolkit]], [[:Category:Demotech About]] & [[:Category:Making made easier]], I've added them to [[User:Chriswaterguy/Wikignome/moving category page content with history - process#Move to mainspace|my list of categories to move, with history, to mainspace/userspace]]. I could maybe make a couple of hours to do moving work on categories (bot commands and export-edit-import) on the weekend.
 +
 
 +
:I'm amazed to see [[Special:UncategorizedCategories]] almost empty, though - this is awesome! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 21:13, 10 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:I've left a friendly note at [[User talk:Sam Rose]] re [[:Category:Michigan Foraging]]. Don't want to create a foraging category for an empty subcategory. If no response, we can move the content to his talk page with a helpful note. So [[Special:UncategorizedCategories]] has only 3 items, and they're all likely to be resolved within a week. Wow. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 21:18, 10 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
::And with only some 750 wanted cats left, you might as well get that Vector skin playing in prime time!  (I'm ignoring the infinite looping of our [[wikipedia:Faceted_classification|faceted classification system]] too. :-)  --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 21:31, 10 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:::I'm not sure whether to be concerned about infinite looping in this context :-). As long as categorization is logical in other respects and useful for navigation, my main concerns are met.
 +
 
 +
:::Lonny's the one to ask about Vector skin. What we really need is the tech resources to implement this and 100 other things. To do that we need to run a fundraiser. For the fundraiser we want Appropedia to look good. For Appropedia to look good, we want to have the Vector skin. D'oh, infinite loop! Let's see if we can prioritize it. The mobile skin would be good, too. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 21:40, 10 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:::Btw, I'm really looking forward to getting a good tool for suggesting categories. Sztakipedia looks good, and we're talking with them; HotCat on Wikipedia is another good tool, and there are more. AppropediaFox has a category function too, but it only works for those that install it, and you have to browse alphabetically. Another priority for tech development. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 22:03, 10 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
== Horticulture and gardening categories ==
 +
:<small> split from previous section --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 21:49, 10 July 2012 (PDT)</small>
 +
{{?}}
 +
* [[:Category:Horticulture]]
 +
* [[:Category:Gardening]]
 +
* [[:Category:Horticulture and gardening]]
 +
--[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 20:51, 10 July 2012 (PDT)  :-)
 +
 
 +
:Yikes! Will look. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 21:13, 10 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:Ok, how should we do this? For starters, I'd like to put sets of pages such as [[El Jardín Mágico de las Niñas]] into their own subcategories. Then [[:Category:Horticulture and gardening]] will only have ~10 pages, and [[:Category:Gardening]] has 31. Those are small enough that a merge is appropriate. ''And'' is there a neat way we could separate the topics? I don't see one - e.g. Herbs and [[Lazy gardening]] can be applicable in horticulture, and herbs and seedlings are relevant to both.
 +
:So, I suggest we merge all this into [[:Category:Horticulture and gardening]]. I can do that with my bot. Sound good?
 +
 
 +
::Personally, I think ''all'' "double-cats" (e.g., [[:Category:Horticulture and gardening]] --> [[:Category:Horticulture]] & [[:Category:Gardening]]; [[:Category:Culture and community]] --> [[:Category:Culture]] <-- (missed one! ;) & [[:Category:Community]]; [[:Category:Food and agriculture]] --> [[:Category:Food]] & [[:Category:Agriculture]]) are bad design.  The [[wikipedia:truth function|truth function]] of the category is operationally ambiguous.  It's written like a conjunction (and), treated like a disjunction (or), and leads to redundancies, omissions and basic confusion, even for a [[wikipedia:Faceted_classification|faceted classification system]].
 +
 
 +
::My preference would be to ''eliminate all'' double cats, and then classify each effected subcat and article as we see fit.  Have them split time with their previous TomCat parents, go to one or the other, or find a new home(s) altogether. :-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 05:38, 11 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:::I can see that... the biggest issues are where to draw the boundaries (but that can be overcome, not least by getting ideas from Wikipedia's categories) and the small number of articles in some categories. If you want to split such categories, that's okay with me - but if you're uncertain or think they'll be controversial, just run your ideas past me first (or on [[A:VP]], ideally)
 +
 
 +
:::How would you deal with food and agriculture - agriculture as a subset of food? But there's also non-food crops like cotton. Or food as a subset of agriculture? But many aspects (subcategories) of food are not topics of agriculture, e.g. cooking or food storage. Interested in your thoughts. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 08:46, 11 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
::::As usual, inertia rules.  I just think in the long run, mixing terms causes more problems than it avoids, although not always.  I often go to Wikipedia for ''mis''guidance, e.g., (single paths)
 +
::::* Food --> Food and drink --> Nutrition --> Determinants of health --> Health --> Main topic classifications
 +
::::* Agriculture --> Main topic classifications
 +
::::Everything is related to everything else, and everything goes in a circle. The classifications systems aren't hierarchical, they're multidimensional. I would just let the strands lead where they may. I find that easier when the cats don't, by definition, have dual constructs in their names. Here...
 +
::::* Cotton (no article ;-) --> Nonfood crops --> Crops --> Agriculture
 +
::::* Food --> Food and agriculture
 +
::::Maybe if we did it like this...
 +
::::* Food --> Nutrition --> Health --> Topics
 +
::::We could start discussing why we have the Health and safety category!  :-)  --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 10:20, 11 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
== Selected testimonials  ==
 +
 
 +
Hi, I started a trial "Selected testimonials" page in [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=User:RichardF/Sandbox&oldid=213141 my main sandbox]. Until I get subpages set up, you can add new content to [[User:RichardF/Sandbox1]].  As much as possible, here's a "template" for what I would like to have for each entry:
 +
* First or Second Group (Left/Top or Right/Bottom display) membership:
 +
* Usable image link (with caption):
 +
* Short quote:
 +
* Long quote:
 +
* Name:
 +
* Appropedia or Wikipedia link:
 +
* Detail after Name (with link):
 +
 
 +
How's ''that'' for a start?!  ;-)  --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 09:47, 17 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
Here's [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=User:RichardF/Sandbox&oldid=213148 an example with a video]. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 10:45, 17 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
Here's [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=User:RichardF/Sandbox&oldid=213153 a two video layout].  I think something like this probable would be the best use of the space - two videos above, two quotes below. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 13:10, 17 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:With a layout like this, we could have "Selected videos," endorsements and otherwise. One side could be reserved for endorsements, if you like. Plus, the "Selected quotes" could be endorsements and otherwise. If you want three levels - Big Shot endorsements, Little Shot endorsements, and words of wisdom, we could do that. Just come up with the material and let me know how much you want to see at once.  :-)  --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 13:48, 17 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
Here are some proposed specs.  Feel free to fix them up.
 +
 
 +
{| class=wikitable width=100%
 +
! colspan=2 | Main Page video & quotes layout specs
 +
|-
 +
| width=50% |
 +
* Videos about Appropedia, including testimonials
 +
|
 +
* Videos about content on Appropedia
 +
|-
 +
| colspan=2 |
 +
* Long quotes
 +
** Short quote on Main Paige, link to longer quote on subpage
 +
** Mostly testimonials about Appropedia
 +
|-
 +
| colspan=2 |
 +
* Short quotes
 +
** Short quote on Main Page, no longer quote on subpage
 +
** Mostly inspirational quotes related to Appropedia's mission
 +
|}
 +
 
 +
--[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 17:45, 17 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
The "long quotes" feature is working.  :-)
 +
----
 +
{{:Welcome to Appropedia/Selected quote/101}}
 +
----
 +
--[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 11:32, 18 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:That's looking great! Now I need to get those quotes for you... (sorry, juggling a few things - be with you soon.) --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 04:53, 19 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
Besides running a bot, is there any way to find all of the #widget:YouTubes out there? --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 20:16, 19 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:To find everywhere it's used on Appropedia? Since you're an admin, [[Special:ReplaceText]] should work nicely. Just don't press "replace" on the second screen :-). --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 21:23, 19 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
::Thanks, I'll give it a try. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 03:47, 20 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
::Okay, here's a [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=User:RichardF/Sandbox2&oldid=213397 list of videos]. Some of them can be used for Main Page "Videos about content on Appropedia". Do you think any of them are "Videos about Appropedia, including testimonials"? Now, I wonder where that [[:Category:Videos]] went? ;-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 04:35, 20 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
::I made an "official" list at [[Appropedia:List of videos]]. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 05:34, 20 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:::Raw student feedback at [[User:Chriswaterguy/Comms/Student feedback]]. I'll see if I have any more (don't think so) - and I'll ask Lonny and Joshua for more. Having some of the quotes up there will be a great motivation - and a bit of extra visibility for the classes and their instructors. Thanks again - I really like this direction. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 01:28, 21 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
:::There are also a few pictures related to service learning at [[User:Chriswaterguy/Comms/Service learning images]]. I plan to add more, with some uploading and searching. Just maybe some of them will be suitable to go with the quotes, if you decide to use images. Or we could contact the students and ask permission to use their photos. (Probably a job for me, plus something to ask in advance, next time.) --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 06:11, 21 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
::::Are you okay with mixing student and expert quotes in one section, or do you want to keep them separate?  My thoughts are to mix them, so that only one testimonial shows at a time. An inspirational quote would show with it. If you want them separate, that would make three quotes showing at once. I prefer to show pics of the people making each quote.  Please let me know which student quotes have their picture permissions with them. When available, I want to link to student user pages as well. I believe a user page pic already has consent for this use. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 20:15, 21 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:::::I'm ok with mixing them. We'll probably end up with way more student quotes than "expert" quotes, but we can deal with that... one day, if needed.
 +
:::::Legally we have permissions, but I'd like to make sure the people concerned are happy to have their pictures and words of endorsement on our front page. Will work on that. Thanks again! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 20:51, 21 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
[[Appropedia:List of videos]] shows all the videos currently displayed here. Would you like like to suggest any of these or other videos to add to the Main Page Selections?  If so, I'll add them to the selections. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 09:50, 22 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:I'm afraid to look at videos at the moment, as I'm trying not to get distracted :-). So I'll rely on your judgement to get that going, as  you see fit. I'll just suggest checking https://www.youtube.com/appropedia if you haven't already (not a lot there, but have a look). I'm also hoping that Lonny will be doing some more video this semester. Thanks --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 23:47, 23 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
::I haven't looked on YouTube but I did ask Lonny and Josh for suggestions.  I don't want to be a movie critic either, so I'll wait to see if there's any real interest from the producers. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 06:19, 24 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:::I'd crack a joke about movie critics, but I don't know any American critics, and you wouldn't know Margaret & David. [[Context]] strikes again. I'll prompt the producers. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 06:36, 24 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
::::For some reason, visions of the U.S. Congress keep popping into my head... --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 07:22, 24 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
== Left-right intro suggestion ==
 +
 
 +
Hi - I messed with your talk intro section because longgggggggggg TOCs drive me crazy!  I tried the same idea at The Pump. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 21:13, 19 July 2012 (PDT) :-)
 +
 
 +
:Nice! That's probably worth turning into a template. (I'm wary of promising to do extra things at the moment, but if you get inspired, I won't stop you :-). --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 21:23, 19 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
::I knew you were going to say that, but I did it anyway!  I'll probably have some time to test a few things out this weekend. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 03:51, 20 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
::{{done}} It's here and at the Pump. :-)  --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 13:14, 20 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:::Fantastic! I love things like this that improve the UX and also make editing less scary for newbies. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 01:28, 21 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
I added the scrolling box feature to {{tl|TOC right}}, making the new template unnecessary.  This way, the new box capabilities already are added to existing {{tl|TOC right}} pages. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 09:33, 21 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
 
 +
Nevermind. See [[Appropedia:Village pump#TOCbox template]] --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 13:59, 21 July 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
==Moving agriculture to farming==
 +
Hi Chris,
 +
could you rename [[Agriculture]] to [[Farming]] ? The last mentions the activity so this is the name we actually need to use, the term agriculture is useful to categorise the many pages surrounding this subject. I'm doing some major rewriting of several articles, and a renaming of this page would be rather important.
 +
KVDP [[Special:Contributions/91.182.223.19|91.182.223.19]] 07:56, 4 August 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:I can see that they're synonyms, but I'm not quite clear that farming is the better name... but maybe you're right, and I see no harm (and there's no merging involved). I've moved it. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 08:11, 4 August 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
::Moved back for now. See [[Talk:Agriculture]]. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 03:18, 5 August 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
== Reversion ==
 +
Can you revert the edits noted at [[User_talk:KVDP#Reverted]]
 +
Thanks,
 +
[[Special:Contributions/91.182.223.19|91.182.223.19]] 08:23, 4 August 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
Hi Chris, just wanted to let you know I made the [[Population_size]] article. I think this probably will be another controversial article (although I just stated the facts here, and tried to keep it as objectively as possible). I made it due to the text I read on many articles that "population growth rates were falling", hereby giving the impression that the population growth is no longer an issue, which couldn't be further from the truth. It's however a bit complex, so I made a full article with some simple calculations and thoughts.
 +
 
 +
Meanwhile, I read up on biogas, ... and will be tackling that soon. There appear to be some rather important issue that are not covered here (for example the heating issue, making it less profitable in colder countries than in hotter ones, and the source materials)
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 06:44, 5 August 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:Thanks. I added a "See also" section to the population size article - there are several on this theme. It's true that this remains very important and that the population is growing (though the rate is falling). --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 07:28, 5 August 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
For the [[Multi-purpose plants]] article: I've reintroduced my updated text to this article. However, from what you mentioned to me, it seems like you actually mean plants of which several plant parts can be eaten. As such, perhaps it's best to rename it to [[Plants with multiple edible plant parts]] ? I moved the same text I reintroduced at the article at [[plants]] (as on second thought, many of the mentioned uses -except the multiple edible plant parts- actually work for ornamental plants too, so I placed it at Plants rather than the crops article. If I was correct, besides the renaming, you can eliminate the other mentioned uses at the multi-purpose plants article as we allready have it at Plants now.
 +
[[Special:Contributions/91.182.23.131|91.182.23.131]] 07:08, 5 August 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:Those edits seem ok. Re the name, [[Plants with multiple edible plant parts]] seems very awkward to me. [[Plants with multiple edible parts]] is a bit better. [[Multi-purpose plants]] actually seems ok to me, and allows for a plant having non-food uses (which are nonetheless not the extremely general purposes of "ground cover" and "shade").
 +
:Note "as well" is always 2 words - have you been able to activate a spell-checker in your browser? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 07:28, 5 August 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
::Then perhaps rename it to [[Plants with multiple edible parts]], it's better to be more specific so that the same info isn't on several articles. Add ground cover as a use to [[plants]].
 +
 
 +
::For the spelling checker: no I haven't included that yet, I find the fact that I need to type in the recaptcha 30 times or more a day a larger problem. They call it a challenge, but that's really a cruel joke ;)
 +
 
 +
:::We've worked on debugging that - I'm not sure why it's not fixed. Lonny will be doing a lot of work soon, with a developer, to upgrade the site. Hopefully the CAPTCHA will be fixed then.
 +
:::I just spent some more time correcting your spelling. There is more to be fixed. ''Please'' add the spellchecker ASAP - I would really appreciate it. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 02:29, 7 August 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
I found that there is a category "Category:Horticulture and gardening" and I found that gardening is regarded as as a form of agriculture here (gardening is listed as agriculture see http://www.appropedia.org/Category:Agriculture and horticulture is labeled as "food production". The last is completely incorrect and needs to be changed and gardening may be completely horticulture (if there are only ornamental plants in the garden) but is best seperated completely from both (as usually, gardens include a vegetable garden, ... aswell)
 +
[[Special:Contributions/91.182.23.131|91.182.23.131]] 07:45, 5 August 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
Although I allready did a lot of work on it, there are still significant issues with [[vegetable oil as fuel]] and, [[Waste vegetable oil]], [[Pure plant oil as fuel]].
 +
I would propose to rename vegetable oil as fuel to [[Plant oil as fuel]], Waste vegetable oil to [[Waste vegetable oil as fuel]]. The vegetable oil as fuel/Plant oil as fuel can then mention both (PPO and WVO), giving a reason of existance to this article.
 +
Another thing I'd like to see renamed is [[Vegetable oils and fats]], can we rename this to [[Plant oils and fat]] I saw the term allready being used at http://www.cyberlipid.org/glycer/glyc0005.htm , and I feel that besides being more logical (as the oils aren't derived from vegetables), it will also increase traffick to the articles since it's immediatelly clear it isn't a copy of the -similarly named- wikipedia article. Let me know whether you or I can change the names, after that I can clean it up and add additional info (we need lists of commercial companies distributing conversion kits for both single tank and bi-tank systems.
 +
[[Special:Contributions/91.182.156.99|91.182.156.99]] 01:28, 6 August 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:Ack... I'm not really comfortable with such changes, without understanding it much better. I suggest (a) working to improve the articles before worrying about the titles, and (b) making the proposal on [[A:VP]]. Thanks. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 01:50, 6 August 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
::Ok, posted at A:VP, finished up on biogas article, and moved the multi-purpose plants article. Made the farming equipment page.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 05:37, 6 August 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:: Cleaned up the biomass and related pages aswell. I don't seem to get much reply on my renaming proposals, though I do seem to get support from it from atleast 1 member: Darren Hill. Can I rename the pages myself ?
 +
 
 +
::Something else: I moved the 3-stone fire to the solid biofuels stoves article (to distinguish the Improved solid biofuels stoves from the regular ones. Appearantly though, regular solid biofuels seem to be used nonetheless in developing countries (ie daruma, pot-bellied stove, ... see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood-burning_stove#Types ). I didn't think they were used there at first, so I thought the move was suitable, but I now think we better have a seperate [[Three-stone fire]] and A [[solid biofuels stoves]] article, the latter mentioning atleast the different types of regular solid biofuels stoves and making changes in this article and the Improved solid biofuels stoves on how they differ.
 +
[[Special:Contributions/91.182.172.104|91.182.172.104]] 02:17, 20 August 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:::[[Three stone fires]] is unchanged - I guess you mean you moved [[Solid biofuels‎]] content to [[Biofuel]] and [[Miscanthus‎]], which looks fine. Thanks for your work on this. Two things would be appreciated when making changes like this:
 +
:::: I meant [[Solid_biofuel_stoves|this 3-stone fire article]], appearantly we have yet another double article. So, perhaps we can move the info from this first article to the second, and make a disambiguation page for the first ?
 +
[[Special:Contributions/91.182.172.104|91.182.172.104]] 04:58, 20 August 2012 (PDT)
 +
:::::Ah, yes. I see a problem with the new name [[Solid biofuel stoves]] - that's a very broad name which could include expensive wood pellet stoves, whereas the article is about traditional fires.
 +
:::::A merge is best, I think - with suitable edit comments so someone viewing the edit history can see where the content went. A disambiguation would also be good. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 07:11, 20 August 2012 (PDT)
 +
:::::: Yes, the name isn't suitable for that article, and a disambiguation page needs to be made. Besides wood, wood pellets, ... we also need to describe stoves running on other fuels (ie charcoal, briquettes, ...) Can you fix this, I can do it myself, but then it will probably be reverted again as I didn't move the page history or what not.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 03:05, 23 August 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:::* When mentioning it and asking for feedback (as you have here), link the articles referred to, so we don't need to hunt for what you're referring to.
 +
:::* In the edit comment field, it's important to say where you moved any content that is removed. On the page where it's moved to, it's important to mention where it has come from. In this case it didn't matter as much because it was your own contributions that you moved (otherwise it's technically a license problem - not giving attribution). But it's still good practice. (I actually reverted the change to [[Solid biofuels‎]] and redid it with the edit comment.
 +
:::Re moving the articles, I'll check the Village Pump. I wasn't so keen on the move, so I was hoping for more other people to comment there. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 04:25, 20 August 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:: In regards to the projects (see [[Appropedia:Village_pump#Projects]] ). Is there some page we can make to place the suggestions on ? I also forgot to mention one idea: of an Uninterruptable Power Supply + circuit breakers between the system and the mains electricity grid (to avoid damaging the system in case of solar storms). The UPS helps to overcome local power outtages + serves as a buffer to store home-made energy on (ie made by a gen-set). So that should be a very valuable project too. Perhaps that the [http://googleblog.blogspot.be/2010/09/10-million-for-project-10100-winners.html Khan Academy] may be a useful site to cooperate with in regards to projects, besides Instructables, ... Perhaps some video's are useful for integration to the [[Appropedia's_offline_content_bundle]]
 +
[[Special:Contributions/91.182.172.104|91.182.172.104]] 04:09, 20 August 2012 (PDT)
 +
:::I'll check the [[Appropedia:Village_pump#Projects]] discussion. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 04:25, 20 August 2012 (PDT)
 +
:::: we also need to mention the design of a uniflow crosshead Diesel engine as another project. A 3D model can be easily made At Humboldt (I added enough info now for this, see links). It should be useful as another electricity generator. I'm allready working on a line Diesel engine for the same purpose, so I'm not going to do the crosshead engine anytime soon (as the only extra merit is a 15% efficiency increase, and simpler design -they both run on PPO/WVO-) These are still important advantages though, so an extra model seems useful.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 03:13, 23 August 2012 (PDT)
 +
:::: Another idea is the design of a stand-alone plant oil filter. This is needed as that way, we can discard the filters in the (non-maritime) Diesel engine (important as this complicates the system hugely). These filters generally require heating of the liquid prior to filtering, however I'm not sure whether we can't simply do away with pre-heating (or otherwise use a very minor pass-trough heater) and just use a very sturdy screw press or something.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 23:34, 3 September 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:: BTW I checked the village pump and saw you mentioned you made a <nowiki>{{sp}}</nowiki> template to list the projects. However, I would like to see an actual new article being made, perhaps that we can even link it from the toolbox or village pump. We could perhaps make it a portal page for the projects.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 23:34, 3 September 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:::Do you want to make up a draft or mockup page so we can see what you have in mind? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 00:35, 4 September 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:::Videos here are embedded, not actually stored - I'm not sure how we'd do that. But if we're talking about content which is open-licensed, there should be some way to do it. Good idea.
 +
 
 +
:: I added some things to http://www.appropedia.org/Appropedia's_offline_content_bundle#Sitemap , I kept it rather basic for now, but I was thinking that those manuals I made (which you didn't like as they were -manuals-) could be used as books here: ie see [[Appropedia:Books]]. They could also be included to the Offline bundle. Btw notice that I added a link to other devices (other than OLPC). In my view this isn't a device people can actually learn on (too small a screen). Nettops are easier and when used in combination with a (laser) keyboard and DIY projector offer rich viewing experience and easy control, for an affordable price. A backpack and battery could be used in combination with it if it needs to be usable on the road.
 +
[[Special:Contributions/91.182.172.104|91.182.172.104]] 04:58, 20 August 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:::Re manuals, major concerns included: that you don't yet have the expertise to write a manual, and that it's not a good starting point for content on a wiki (more difficult to get contributions). For that reason, I wouldn't support such manuals as "Books" either. However, if we had open licensed content from an EWB/ISF organization, or from Practical Action, that would make a good starting point. E.g. Practical Action technical brief reflect probably many decades of study and experience by multiple people in the field.
 +
:::Agreed that the offline bundles are not just for OLPCs - the OLPC is an interesting project that gave us the idea of offline bundles, but we don't need to specify the machine that the content is used on. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 06:54, 20 August 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
:: The fuel-powered turbine I described seems to have a much lower efficiency as what I initially thought (hence changed my articles). I found that the Diesel engine (a specific type therof, the 2-stroke Diesel engine) is a better replacement for this turbine (higher efficiency, and very uncomplicated). I made a page on it, and added links if you like to read about it in detail. I also discussed the speed/load ration in various articles (running speed) which is a very important issue in operating especially Diesel engines, but pretty much any other type of heat engine aswell. I immediatelly worked on several pages on electric vehicles for this.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 03:05, 23 August 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
== Hello :) ==
 +
 
 +
Hi Chris,
 +
Thanks for the warm welcome. I've just made a post on the [[Appropedia:Village pump|Village pump]] about Practical Plants, to let the community here know we exist! We only launched this week, so I'm doing the rounds trying to drum up some support and interest in what I hope will become a really invaluable resource for the community :) {{unsigned2| 17:03, 9 August 2012|Andru}}
 +
== Goldemberg corner ==
 +
 
 +
Eventually this subject might deserve a real article on {{SITENAME}}. I don't know enough yet to write a good one, but I mentioned some preliminary information and links in [[Appropedia talk:Vision and mission#Pushing everybody into the Goldemberg corner]]. As I mentioned there, I should transcribe my notes onto a user subpage for this topic, from which a real article might someday emerge. I initially began looking into this while debating with climate change deniers online. In the denial community one commonly repeated bit of folklore is that burning fossil fuels is great because the alternative is to return to Stone Age poverty. Of course we know that isn't necessarily the only option, although it would work to cut emissions, but knowing something is different that being able to explain it convincingly to a denier. So I looked for some research into the minimum fossil fuel burn necessary to provide one human with a decent life. And lo, there is quite a bit on that. In fact the concept is valuable for a lot more than arguing with explicit climate change deniers, it's also the way to define the whole target for green living and sustainable development in general, and to explore the relationship between getting what we want (a high level of human development) while trying to minimize what we don't want (our ecological footprints, which threaten to wipe out the hard-won benefits of development). --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 14:53, 11 August 2012 (PDT)
 +
:This is important, and I'd like to help this happen. I'm trying to work mainly on meta-Appropedia stuff more than specific pages, but that's a page I'd definitely pay attention to.
 +
:I've replied at [[Appropedia talk:Vision and mission#Pushing everybody into the Goldemberg corner]]. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 23:34, 11 August 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
== WOSlinker  ==
 +
''What is WOSlinker and why is it garbaging up my template customizations?''
 +
 
 +
[http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=Template%3ADocumentation_subpage&action=historysubmit&diff=215670&oldid=158017 This is a great example] of why automatic tools should never edit templates - they are highly efficient machines for generating unnecessary work for humans. Do you know what WOSlinker is, and why doesn't it explain itself? Any automatic tool that blasts into a template should leave an [[wikipedia:WP:EDITSUMMARY]] identifying itself as a program rather than a human, and provide a link to some page that answers the [[wikipedia:Five W's]] about itself and why it thought it needed to do what it blindly did, so a human who wants to repair the damage can do so. WOSlinker left only the uselessly uninformative edit summary "fix categorisation" which doesn't begin to explain the gibberish it shoved into {{Tl|Documentation subpage}}. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 12:13, 25 August 2012 (PDT)
 +
:I can't make sense of [[Special:Contributions/WOSlinker]]. The edit summaries seem to suggest a human is behind these edits, but there is no [[User:WOSlinker]]. When I browse to [[User talk:WOSlinker]] it says "User account "WOSlinker" is not registered." Do you know what or who this is? --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 12:23, 25 August 2012 (PDT)
 +
::Yes - my error in misunderstanding the import process in my recent multiple template import. For one thing, I should have edited the xml file to change the usernames to, e.g., "WOSlinker (from en.wikipedia.org)" - and needed to be much more careful to avoid overwrites. Replying in full on your talk page. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 00:34, 26 August 2012 (PDT)
 +
:::Ah, that makes sense. I did not realize the automatic import was bringing in revisions attributed to usernames on Wikipedia having no counterpart here. I have little experience with automatic importing because I've always done imports by hand - I must have concluded a long time ago that letting a machine do it blindly is a way to break a lot of things quickly. Thus I forgot about the imported username gotcha. Is there a test or dev version of Appropedia for testing this sort of thing? It's inadvisable to let an untested tool run multi-file wild on a live wiki. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 10:29, 26 August 2012 (PDT)
 +
::::I've [[User talk:Lonny #Dev wiki?|asked Lonny]] if we're getting a wiki with the coming upgrades he's working on (in the next couple of weeks, I think). --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 05:03, 27 August 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
== Contacting GreenPolicy360 ==
 +
 
 +
Dean Myerson managed, and maybe still manages, the GreenPolicy360 website. You can find his contact info at http://drupalbydean.com/ . I would do an email introduction between you, though I don't have your email address, and I don't really have a connection with Dean anyways. {{unsigned|Curiouspatrick|10 September 2012}}
 +
 
 +
:Excellent, thank you! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 22:51, 9 September 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
==Portals and taskbar==
 +
Moved to [[Appropedia:Portals and categories]]
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 02:26, 26 October 2012 (PDT)
 +
 
 +
BTW: I just wanted to mention the Deltares project at Jakarta aswell, perhaps that's of intrest to you since you work in Indonesia (under direction of Janjaap Brinkman, see http://www.tw-digitaal.nl/web/2011/TW48/31/1374/robuuste_zeedijk_voor_zinkend_jakarta.html )
 +
 
 +
::* I'm in Melbourne now, not Jakarta, but thanks for the link. I still have contacts there.
 +
 
 +
== Co2 calculator ==
  
 
Hi Chris
 
Hi Chris
  
Actually I had already caught the student purging the page and warned him -- if it is not corrected by 5pm Friday I will go back and fix everything. Sorry for the trouble -  
+
I agree this is getting pretty important. I of course am happy to share the spreadsheet with anyone that wants it, but we haven't posted it as it is not cleaned up/easy to use the way all our other ones have been...This of course takes a fairly large time investment -- and as usual it is a limited time in the day problem. Most of the people that are interested in this kind of thing have their own very sophisticated models and can add our equations in from the paper to their own work. -- [[User:J.M.Pearce|Joshua]] 07:25, 29 October 2012 (PDT)
  
--[[User:J.M.Pearce|Joshua]] 05:50, 6 December 2007 (PST)
+
==Move==
 +
Hi Chris,
 +
can you move [[Composting]] to [[Humification]] ?
 +
Thanks,
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 03:53, 3 November 2012 (PDT)
  
 +
:No, no, no... composting is a well-known term, and even geeky me has never heard of humification until now. We need to use names people recognize. Sorry. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 04:02, 3 November 2012 (PDT)
  
== note to self ==
+
::Hi Chris, the page you userfied needs to be moved back, see
 +
[[User_talk:KVDP#Two_pages_moved_to_userspace]]
 +
:: Re composting: I explained why I prefer humification. I don't think it will be a problem that 'composting' is a more common term as typing it in redirects it to Humification. I think that composting is very confusing and people that don't yet understand the process get mislead on what it does. It's a bit like the 'Bokashi' page, and all of the other pages on aerobic/anaerobic digestion/fermentation, ... Before I edited it, the pages actually succeeded in misleading the reader and make him even more confused than befor he read the pages. Besides this page, keeping this term also makes other pages confusing (ie [[fertiliser]]): would one immediatelly understand the difference between "green manure" and "compost" ?
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 00:36, 5 November 2012 (PST)
 +
:::I don't see it, sorry. I see why you like humification, but I don't see think it's important to get people using that word instead of "composting". --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 03:40, 5 November 2012 (PST)
  
Dr Iswanto - Ramina?, 5k outside Yogya, identified tips as source of Dengue mosquitoes; community program to clean up. trip to oz to get help with composting - used old water tanks.
+
::OK, fixed it using another way
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 04:13, 6 November 2012 (PST)
  
info from rgreen at earth makers com --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] &middot; <small>[[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]</small> 18:23, 18 December 2007 (PST)
+
:::Re compostation - looks at the ratio between Google results for composting vs compostation. I'd never heard the word before seeing your move, and at first I thought you'd made up a new word. I don't think it's used outside fairly technical contexts. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 04:37, 6 November 2012 (PST)
  
== Appropriate tech ==
+
:::I've worked and take an active interest in the science of composting.  I don't think humification is a word associated with composting at all.  I think it implies the production of humus in the soil, which is not what is going on in composting.  Likewise compostation.  I would agree that composting is a very general word which commonly includes things which are not really composting at all.  But then I don't really see that matters.  If people associate green manuring with composting, then it is natural to look at a composting page, even if strictly speaking it is not composting.  [[User:Joeturner|Joeturner]] 03:38, 16 January 2013 (PST)
  
:''moved from my [[Wikipedia:User talk:Chriswaterguy|Wikipedia talk page]].''
+
==Food choices==
 +
Hi Chris,
 +
I was wondering whether perhaps the guys from Engr410 could rework this page:
 +
[[Vegetarian versus meat diet]]. I think it's probably valuable to make it into ie
 +
[[Ecologic food choices]] or [[Ecologic diets]]. A "meat diet" doesn't exist, and it's wrong to suggest there are only 2 options: vegetarianism or a diet which incorporates meat (ie see other options at [[Meat_production#See_also]].
 +
 
 +
Any info specific to meat production from Vegetarian versus meat diet can be moved to meat production. Also we should mention the pro's and contra's of each diet. ie for vegetarianism:
 +
* Soy is not a native crop outside Korea (and/or the immediate region around it) yet it is one of the main protein crops used in vegetarianism/veganism. Vegetarianism/veganism does know some substitutes (ie beans, nuts, ...) but that's probably not enough. As such, in regions outside Korea/immediate vicinity, it is more ecologic to use another diet (ie by using a relatively efficient animal as (cultivated) fish, ... or [[entomophagy]], artificial meat, ...) See the notes at [[Meat production]].
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 04:13, 6 November 2012 (PST)
 +
 
 +
:Some rearrangement of the veg/meat diet pages might be good - I'll raise it with the HSU people.
 +
:Re using a crop outside its native region - we've discussed this several times, and I believe you're mistaken to place such importance on this. A high-yielding introduced species will presumably have a lower impact than a low-yielding native species (all other things being equal, such as soil management). This is mainly because the high-fielder will require less land. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 04:37, 6 November 2012 (PST)
 +
 
 +
:: I know that in the intrest of farming efficiency native crops/animals may be (far) worse. However, there's no issue if the crop/animal farmed escapes into the wild, and it can also be beneficial to reducing the food miles. Ie the farming of native crops/animals can be regulated nationally (so it can be made illegally to farm anything that is not native) and import/export will just no longer be economically feasible to be transported worldwide at all (as all particular crops will need to come from one region -rather than many regions around the world-, which will clog shipping/aircraft transport routes and/or the routes may not be economically feasible at all). This results in having the crop/animal not transported at all, and the consumer being force to choose another crop/animal which in most cases will be a crop/animal that is grown on a better route, often closer to home.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 01:25, 7 November 2012 (PST)
 +
 
 +
:: I'll look at doing some work on food choices aswell. Can you however stop on supervising every change I do. I find it a bit annoying that [[Compostation]] has been reverted back to composting, despite that I listened to you to not change it to humification. [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=Composting&oldid=223373 This revision of me] is something I can accept -and compostation is just the noun of "to compost", so very close if not almost identical to "composting"-. The current revision is something I have a problem with, especially as "assisted aerobic digestion" has been removed, to distinct it from natural aerobic digestion (which occurs in nature). If you look at the old versions of the pages I edited (ie organic pesticides) you see that I improved the pages significantly, and even took out horrible spelling errors -even worse than what I made in the past-. Still , you only complained about spelling errors with me, and left this page unchanged for many years. Sorry about putting it so blunt, but to work effectively, I really like to work without having supervision and a greater freedom in what I write than what is the case ie at Wikipedia. That's the reason why I do the edits, if this isn't possible, there's little motivation for me to write any articles here at all.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 01:12, 7 November 2012 (PST)
 +
 
 +
:::I appreciate your frustration. Many of your edits are improving, but some are still a problem for the article space of Appropedia. E.g. compostation is ''very'' obscure (not even in [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/compostation major] [http://oxforddictionaries.com/spellcheck/english/?q=compostation English] [http://www.collinsdictionary.com/spellcheck/english/compostation dictionaries], nor in [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=compostation Wiktionary]. It's known in English as "composting" - you haven't given a convincing reason to change the article to a different term.
 +
 
 +
:::: Composting is a verb wheras compostation is a noun. With composting, the first line should be:
 +
::::Compostation, humification, or assisted aerobic digestion is the ''act of decomposing'' [[green manure]] (sometimes with [[feces]]) into [[humus]] using aerobic bacteria.
 +
 
 +
:::: With compostation, we can write:
 +
:::: Compostation, humification, or assisted aerobic digestion is the decomposition of [[green manure]] (sometimes with [[feces]]) into [[humus]] using aerobic bacteria.
 +
 
 +
:::: Since you insists on keeping the verb, I changed it to the first line.
 +
:::: Also notice the "humus-rich compost"; that's wrong, it's converted to humus (and no compost remains) or it's still in the process of converting the green manure, and then its called compost.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 01:36, 8 November 2012 (PST)
 +
 
 +
:::::Composting in this context is a gerund,{{w|gerund}} which is a type of noun. In English it's correct to say "Walking is good exercise." "Walking" is used as a noun - this is also a gerund. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 01:43, 8 November 2012 (PST)
 +
 
 +
:::"assisted aerobic digestion" was not removed, but moved to later in the same sentence where I think it fits better - it's not as much an alternative name for composting as a description. [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=Composting&action=historysubmit&diff=223381&oldid=223373 My edit] was quite minor, I thought - is there something else that bothers you about it, or just the page name and the placement of "assisted aerobic digestion"?
 +
 
 +
:::: Yes, besides the first mistake, you also added other mistakes:
 +
Compost can be created from organic material such as kitchen waste, garden waste or [[feces]] (see [[Composting toilet]]).
 +
 
 +
:::: The line above you added is incorrect as: first of all, we don't convert it to compost, so don't mention this (say humus instead) secondly, you state as if you can compost the organic material described on it's own. Rather, feces alone doesn't compost to humus, it can only be done by mixing feces with green manure.
 +
 
 +
:::::I don't know what you mean by "we don't convert it to compost". Perhaps you can explain at [[Talk:Composting]]. I've placed other comments there, as it's a better place for detailed discussion of that page. Thanks. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 03:29, 8 November 2012 (PST)
 +
 
 +
:::::: Compost is organic material that is being converted. One hence does not wish to make compost to improve his soil (which would mean he would need to interrupt his humification or "composting) process and use this partly processed matter), he wishes to make humus (which is the completely processed product). I think it isn't needed to discuss it, I allready corrected the page.[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 04:41, 8 November 2012 (PST)
 +
 
 +
:::::::Your statement is incorrect - I wish you would be less strident in your opinions, as you still have much to learn. (There is nothing to be ashamed of in having much to learn - we are all at some stage of learning, but we should be realistic about how much we know.)
 +
:::::::People make ''compost''. ''Compost'' is sold at plant nurseries, not "humus". (I don't know if that's true in all countries, but I don't think it's realistic commercially to sell something which is 100% humus.) Humification continues after the compost it is added to the soil.
 +
:::::::Please also note [[Talk:Composting]]. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 05:15, 8 November 2012 (PST)
 +
 
 +
:::::::: perhaps that 'the people' say that they sell compost, but actually they don't know what it is they're selling at all (most have very poor grammar), all they really know is how much it costs ... I guess that the in the instance you mention they sell green manure rather than compost. See [[Talk:Composting]]. [[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 00:39, 10 November 2012 (PST)
 +
 
 +
:::::::::You can't say that all these people are wrong - the businesses making and selling compost, and all the amateur gardeners who make compost (and you would have to add all the presenters of gardening programs on radio and television in Australia, I think) - without backing it up. It's compost - it's not green manure and it's not humus (at least not completely humus). --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]]
 +
 
 +
:::I have particularly noticed spelling errors with your edits, in terms of quantity - that's partly because of how much you contribute here. Other editors have made more mistakes on a page, but usually only on one page. Sorry about the unfairness of that. I hadn't seen the old spelling errors on that page, or I would have done something - thank you for fixing them.
 +
 
 +
:::You do a very large amount of editing, which is good, but it means that any issues tend to cover a lot of pages, and I worry that we will lose track of them. I still find the need to check RecentChanges (not just your edits - but I know that Lonny and Joshua check many pages by their students). But I will try to be more sensitive about it. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 04:11, 7 November 2012 (PST)
 +
 
 +
::: Can you move [[Measures_to_stop_global_warming]] to your user page (userfy the page). It's not yet ready. A list of measures can allready be found via my website (since I've been quite obsessive on this issue in the past, the articles I wrote on this are better worked out). I added a website adress as a reference at [[Climate change]], so moving the [[Measures_to_stop_global_warming]] to a user page doesn't remove any info.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 01:47, 8 November 2012 (PST)
 +
 
 +
::::A page doesn't need to be fully ready to be in userspace, as long as there are no major errors. I think you're suggesting that this has as many serious problems as pages of yours that I moved to userspace. I disagree, but if you find another editor who thinks the same, we can re-open the discussion. I'd rather just improve the page, though. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 03:29, 8 November 2012 (PST)
 +
::::: Of many pages of mine which you userfied, I still need to figure out the what exactly the problem is. Often, the reason is that I don't have enough resources or papers that back my (sometimes "bold") claims up. However, this isn't the case at the mentioned page. The issue here is that it mentions a huge amount of low-efficient methods and mentions them as being as important as more sensible/efficient methods. The lineup/makeup of the page is bad and the measures are not mentioned in degree of efficiency. PS: the "Professionally executed cultivation" page of mine was userfied, was called "not ready" by you (and there were no errors in it, it just needed a full sentence).
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 04:41, 8 November 2012 (PST)
 +
 
 +
:::::With [[Professionally executed cultivation]] I felt the purpose wasn't clear at all - partly because it was so short, and the concept didn't make sense to me. I'm still not sure that "professional" is the right word. It isn't necessarily bad - the point of userfication is that it lets the page continue to be developed and fact-checked.
 +
:::::[[Measures_to_stop_global_warming]] certainly needs work, but tagging (e.g. if there are inaccuracies or lack of references) and some minor editing could make it acceptable, as an initial step. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 05:15, 8 November 2012 (PST)
 +
 
 +
:::::: Finished up on Measures_to_stop_global_warming as is seems it wasn't going to be userfied, and as I actually had a lot less work with the ecologic diets as I thought (which otherwise required me to get a bit more time before I could tackle the other article). Userfy [[Sustainable energy booklet]] instead.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 06:34, 10 November 2012 (PST)
 +
:::::::Fair enough re [[Sustainable energy booklet]] - the person I did that for never followed through. I'm moving it to [[Appropedia:Incubator/Sustainable energy booklet]] in case someone else wants to take it up. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 07:16, 10 November 2012 (PST)
 +
 
 +
== Cycling pages ==
  
 
Hi Chris,
 
Hi Chris,
 +
I think I added sufficient edit texts, and mentioned in the text what I wrote, differentiating it from the original text. If you feel some tweaks are still necessairy let me know. I'm going to update the cycling page a bit to make it more readable, as you made a comment on this.
  
Was just reading your appropriate technology page under your wikipedia user page, and noticed that you say you're going to suggest to EWB Australia that they use Wikipedia.  My sense is that you've shift your view, and now would (and have done?) recommend Appropedia.  Would it be worth it to change your AT page?
+
Anyway, can you move the [[Bicycles in developing contexts]] article back to the new aticle name [[Converting bicycles to freight bicycles]]
  
By the way, I got here by reading the Appropriate Tech wikipedia article wondering who all the contributors were, then thinking I should try to connect with them, then thinking that you had probably already done it.  But a search for your user name didn't work out quite like I expected.  So, let me know if you think it's good/bad (maybe bad form?) to contact other AT contributors to promote Appropedia to them?
+
Thanks
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 05:00, 18 December 2012 (PST)
  
(By the way, I love the symbol/character/wikimarkup insertion tool below the wikipedia edit window!)
+
{{undent}}I can see you are making an effort with the edit summaries, and I appreciate that. However, there is still a major misunderstanding... I reverted the edit mainly because there was no edit summary explaining where the cut text was moved to. Again you [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=Bicycles_in_developing_contexts&action=historysubmit&diff=226667&oldid=226169 cut the text] and didn't explain where it went.
  
--[[User:Curtbeckmann|Curtbeckmann]] 18:53, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
+
A secondary reason (easier to fix) was that you cut material about "Bicycles in developing contexts" from the [[Bicycles in developing contexts]] article, and I couldn't see why - I really think it should remain there. I thought I explained that, but I was unclear - I'm sorry. So, it would be more appropriate to leave the material you cut, and cut the material you left. This is why I suggested editing the old version and copying from there. Does that make sense? I say it's easier to fix in that case, because if you had created a new page, we could just do some renaming and it would be okay. (It's not perfect, as the chain of attribution that I talked about for the edit summaries - "moved from [[article name]]" - can be broken if pages are moved on top of redirects... maybe that's unavoidable, but it's another reason for choosing carefully where to move content.)
  
== This is Lucy Skywalker from Transition Towns ==
+
I see there are similar problems at [[Cycling]]: [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=Cycling&action=historysubmit&diff=226377&oldid=226166 reverting the changes] without correcting the problem we started with - i.e. that diff shows new content. Now finally I've worked out that you've added "<nowiki><ref name="Bicycles in developing contexts">Text taken from "Bicycles in developing contexts" article</ref></nowiki>" - this is not at all what I meant - this should be stated in the edit summary.
  
Have only JUST read your thread on Transition Net forum and yes, I shall read Appropedia VERY CAREFULLY because my instinct is the same as yours - collaboration to mutual benefit. Yes. And I want to see a wiki like this for the WHOLE RANGE of human and spiritual issues that Transition throws up, not "neutral" like Wikipedia but passionate about Transition and leaving room for appropriate research. The Encyclopedia of Earth is a nice idea but it's still REMOTE from Jo Bloggs '''''[http://www.who needs snappy facts quick. I've been hunting for the right website, and not finding any adequate to the task, have set about transforming our own, [http://www.greenworldtrust.org.uk], to target the need and gradually expand systems-wise, from the whole to the parts, yet always stay friendly and accessible and "Back To Basics". I now believe I have the BEST online introduction to Transition Towns. I've just started to interact with the TNet forum and asked them to raise their forum's profile. But if we can collaborate and just DO IT - why not? there is such a need...  
+
Okay, after writing the above, and looking at the different edits as I replied, it's now obvious that this is not working - I have suggested in the past that you stop moving content around so much, and now we need to be definite about this. I cannot keep spending so much time on this. It's having a negative impact on some pages, and it's also very hard to see what has been done, which makes it too difficult for the community to exercise oversight over recent changes. It's disruptive, in spite of your good intentions.
  
If you want to answer me quick so I see your reply, email me action [at] greenworldtrust.org.uk. Meanwhile I shall be soaking up the wiki here to see what comes through as best way to collaborate. I don't usually CAPITALIZE this much - this reflects excitement!
+
'''My proposal is this''': You will completely stop moving content between pages. In rare cases (such as splitting the [[Bicycles_in_developing_contexts]] page, which was a reasonable suggestion) you can suggest such a change. But mostly you will need to do other kinds of editing. There are other areas you could work which would aid your learning, by doing more research while creating pages here. Are you willing to accept this proposal? If you feel this is unfair we can ask the opinion of the admins, or the community.
[[User:Lucy Skywalker|Lucy Skywalker]] 05:44, 18 December 2007 (PST)
+
  
:Great! Replied on [[User_talk:Lucy_Skywalker#Green_World_Trust|your talk page]] and notifying by email. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] &middot; <small>[[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]</small> 07:05, 18 December 2007 (PST)
+
Re the cycling pages, they are in a confusing state - I will need to revert them again. You can access your version of the page, and you could copy from that where you have fixed tags and formatting and other small scale changes, to replace the uncorrected versions of those sections. But you should not paste in such a way that paragraphs of content go missing or are added. (The "Show changes" button is useful for checking this before saving.) --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 06:45, 18 December 2012 (PST)
  
::Cheers too! Have been scanning the wiki and your very interesting pages and I need to let it lie fallow now to let in the higher wisdom. But my first, very very clear thought is this: Appropedia (through any one individual or all of you) needs to take on the huge, huge urgency and pressure of the Peak Oil situation - and the new Global Warming info on hazards directly ahead. Perhaps my website can help with this - I do hope so!!!!! - this info is right at the top on my Transition Towns and Key Information pages.
+
==Google search tag==
 +
Hi Chris,
 +
I remember that at some point (a few years back) Lonny stated that a tag can be added (adding keywords) to Appropedia articles to make them come up higher in Google searches. Do you know which tag this was, I can't find it anymore.
  
:::You're absolutely right - I've wanted to do something about this, particularly climate change, for ages, but we've had been dozens of other pressing tasks, and I've been hoping people with a passion for these issues would join the project. Perhaps that time has come.  
+
In addition, I was wondering whether the template I requested has your support (see [[User_talk:RichardF#New_template.2Ftag]] ) The initial intent of this was to make my own "organisation" page a bit nicer, but I feel that it's useful for other AT organisation pages aswell.
 +
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 01:28, 28 December 2012 (PST)
  
::I've gone through times in my life when my direction has been catapulted through a huge paradigm shift, and these last three months is another of those. It's Peak Oil, finally the writing is so clearly on the wall - and very, very close, much closer than even seasoned greenies may realize - and this kind of gives me permission to speak openly about what I've known for so long - see my Apocalyptic Vision from 1981 [[http://www.greenworldtrust.org.uk/Awakening/apocvision.htm]. I've put the most critical info clearly on our TTown page under Peak Oil and The Big Melt, and I've started a wider info backup on the Key Information page. As Rob Hopkins says and we all in TT live with, THESE ARE THE DRIVERS of all we do in creative response. THESE ARE FACTS EVERYONE NEEDS TO KNOW - to let them work as drivers. So for instance the need for everyone to know how many man-hours is represented by a gallon of petrol, and what its "real" value is in those terms. Human Ecology - what Richard Heinberg majors in. It's not just about personal solutions which assume that the world continues well enough to put those solutions into practice, it's about integrated solutions that hold up for the best for everyone. Hence the emphasis on RELOCALIZE with TT. But the stark info which is the driver, needs to be GLOBAL and so does the derivative info, like how to run oil vulnerability audits, info collecting to assess the TWIG rating, etc.
+
BTW: can the article [[How_is_plastic_recycled]] be blanked and a redirect be made to <nowiki>[[Category:Plastics_recovery_manual]]</nowiki>
  
:::Really valuable content - we'd love to have this kind of info. However, we can't just go in and take it without clear permission. It would be great if Appropedia and all the TT sites were using compatible [[open content]] licenses, so we could use each other's content freely. That's not hard to achieve, but I'd like to have a conversation with you about the steps needed.  
+
:We would need a new extension to add those meta-tags, I think, and we never added that. We need to research SEO a bit to learn if that's still relevant with current search engine algorithms.  
  
:::Another issue is content type - we generally refer activist type content and policy debates/lobbying to our forums and/or [[wikia:sca21|SCA]]. But in terms of analysis and solutions, this is the place for it - and being a broad, international site, there's potentially a high profile and plenty of opportunity for engagement with [[likeminded people]]. There might be some cases where we have to work out what's appropriate for the site, but I don't foresee any big problems.
+
:As a general principle I think navigation templates are useful, including organizational ones. If it's a proposed organization, we might need to think about it some more. Maybe you could adapt an existing one, either to a specific use, or to make it more general?
  
::::Yes yes yes! basically everything right on! I need time to digest but I've skimmed your latest replies. I looked up the stars and it's one of the most potent combinations possible, right on this conversation!... tell you later some time. When I woke up I thought Appropedia being a wiki has "troops", lots of resources of responses, but what our website has, not being a wiki, is more capacity to focus and marshal. Hence all the "driver" info upfront - info re Peak Oil and CC - also the first line of creative response is upfront. My thought therefore is to use OUR forum to replicate and continue this conversation there. But give me time to copy/restate it there first if that's ok. Juggling in between Christmas calling!! but then, I think Transition Towns IS the Christmas message!
+
:Re plastics recovery - no. We've talked about manuals before, and this has the same problems. Even without opening the articles, why do the pages have numbered names rather than descriptive names? (It's not only these pages that have this issue - some old pages merged from WikiGreen do that too, and need to be tackled some day.) Also, content that has value should be blanked only if it is moved elsewhere (with edit summaries at source and target page, as you understand).
  
::::I can't forget, the huge droughts in both the US and Australia this year... [[User:Lucy Skywalker|Lucy Skywalker]] 01:34, 19 December 2007 (PST)
+
:Note that if there's a link that wouldn't normally display, you can make it display by adding a colon in front: <nowiki>[[:Category:Plastics_recovery_manual]]</nowiki> -> [[:Category:Plastics_recovery_manual]]. Or use {{tl|cl}} (category link): {{cl|Plastics_recovery_manual}} Thanks. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 18:35, 3 January 2013 (PST)
  
 +
=== Can Appropedia lead demonstrating GEM mosquito control?  ===
 +
Hi Chris Watkins & Christopher Sam,
  
::enough for now, catch up after Christmas probably.
+
I have posted this question/doubt/suggestion in GEMMC’s talk page. Earnestly hope to hear you.
  
:::Merry christmas!
+
--[[User: Georgedappilly|GeorgeEM]] &middot; <small>[[ Talk:GEM_mosquito_control|GEMMC.talk]]</small> [[User:Georgedappilly|Shooter]] 02:46, 11 January 2013 (PST)
  
:::If you're on Skype, my id is ''chriswaterguy''. Look forward to continuing the conversation sometime. (I'll be away approx 28 Dec - 4 Jan - hopefully catch you before then, but if not, Happy New Year as well! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] &middot; <small>[[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]</small> 21:55, 18 December 2007 (PST) [not on Skype - [[User:Lucy Skywalker|Lucy Skywalker]] 01:34, 19 December 2007 (PST)]
+
==Question about water and sanitation categories/areas==
  
:::::No problem - phone calls between Australia and UK are cheap these days. My mobile/SMS number is +61 400 220 700. It would be good to talk - just contact me, one way or another, and we can set up a phone call.  
+
Hi Chris, I have been looking at the arrangement of sanitation information on appropedia. I might well be speaking from total ignorance here, so please forgive me if I have missed something obvious. Looking at the areas box in the left sidebar, the most obvious area to find sanitation information would seem to be 'water', which takes me to the water portal.  Then I'm thinking possibly the 'water and sanitation for developing countries' or the 'water treatment' categories, but I still can't find particular pages I know are on appropedia, for example the humanure page.  According to the category tree, there is a page within the water category called 'sanitation', which indiates that there is a sanitation category.  But the humanure page doesn't appear to be in the sanitation category.
  
:::::I'm ''singkong'' on Gmail chat, if that helps. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] &middot; <small>[[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]</small> 05:20, 19 December 2007 (PST)
+
Can I suggest a sanitation (or perhaps some other, even more obvious, title) tab from the water portal which includes everything associated with excreta handling and disposal?  Of course, pages could also be in other categories, but I think it makes most sense to have all the interventions in one place for ease of use. [[User:Joeturner|Joeturner]] 00:42, 16 January 2013 (PST)
  
::::::will phone or write here if I can, tight time. I've done quite a bit more work on our website esp. the start of the Key Info "portal" page. This strategizing is what I think Appropedia (and TT) need and I'm trying to start to bring thru. I think Appropedia need a "Transition" section and they need the page one comes to, the Home Page, to be a portal page to all key Transition issues. IMHO!! Be in touch soon. Cheers [[User:Lucy Skywalker|Lucy Skywalker]] 02:10, 22 December 2007 (PST)
+
:: OK, I have thought about this a bit more. How about expanding the WASH page and then creating a WASH category with a view to eventually having a WASH portalI think WASH has the advantage that people most people involved in it know what it is and includes.  We can then tidy up the numerous composting toilet, composting sewage sludge, humanure etc pages into something more cohesive and easy to navigate. Actually I have just found the 'water and sanitation for developing countries' category, maybe it would make sense to merge that into a WASH category? [[User:Joeturner|Joeturner]] 11:40, 16 January 2013 (PST)
  
 +
:::Thanks Joe, and sorry for the very slow reply.  You're right - the sanitation structure needs an overhaul. A separate [[Portal:Sanitation]] and or [[Portal:WASH]] would be great, for one thing.  [[User:RichardF]] has done all the newer style portal, and may be able to help, at some point.
  
== Lucy Skywalker at New Year ==
+
:::You could do some category edits if you're so inspired - adding or changing categories. You can check with me on major changes - that's not essential, but a second opinion is worth getting for things to do with the category structure.
  
Hi, tried phoning 9.30 am and pm your time but no reply. So here are my thoughts:
+
:::My usual approach to category names is to make them as straightforward as possible - so I'd go for "Sanitation" for the main category, but some pages and maybe a portal about WASH. On the other hand, WASH might be a useful framework for young these related ideas together in the category structure. I'm starting to like the idea. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 04:57, 25 Ja
 +
nuary 2013 (PST)
  
1) Transition Network: Just visited the Transition forum and saw that nobody has entered anything later than my 3 posts a fortnight ago, this includes no response to my requests that the webmaster move the Forum hyperlink into a more prominent position on the TT wiki. Could be Christmas but it confirms the feeling that this forum is stuck - but then, so is ours still! Shall continue to work on this.  
+
:::: Happy to go with whatever you think. I don't want to mess up the portals or categories, so if you want to do it, I will help to populate and organise. [[User:Joeturner|Joeturner]] 10:57, 26 January 2013 (PST)
  
:Forums with a small area of focus (like one specific town) will always struggle, I think, and that might the problem in this case. categories or sub-forums on a larger site makes more sense to me, to encourage interaction. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] &middot; <small>[[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]</small> 22:27, 6 January 2008 (PST)
+
:::::Re categories: Cool - do you want to suggest some category merges/moves/deletions?
 +
:::::Re portals: I'm leaving a [[User talk:RichardF #Sanitation portal|note for RichardF]] to request his expertise.  
 +
:::::Thanks! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 22:10, 26 January 2013 (PST)
 +
:::::: Maybe we can disuss this elsewhere, how about on [[Talk:WASH]]? [[User:Joeturner|Joeturner]] 07:52, 27 January 2013 (PST)
 +
:::::: I have added some other thoughts on [[Talk:WASH]].  [[User:Joeturner|Joeturner]] 00:41, 5 February 2013 (PST)
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:::::::Hi Joe & Chris.  See [[Talk:WASH#Working WASH outline]] for my take on this discussion. :-) [[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 18:42, 9 February 2013 (PST)
  
2) Appropedia: I still feel this needs, right up front, top of home page, a nice user-friendly attractive-looking portal to all the departments. And why not have a whole "Transition" section? IMHO!... MEANWHILE... I've put a "thumbnail" about TT on the WikiNode page. Most of these wikis seem quite dormant and the Wikiversity / EcoVillage links are almost all structure with no substance, no pics... so again '''''[http://www.greenworldtrust.org.uk/TransTowns/TTportal.htm our intro to Transition Towns at GWT]''''', and the rest I've done, still seems strategically important. '''''[[wikia:sca21:Main_Page|Sustainable Community Action]]''''' is much the best wiki I found, and, appropriately, already has Transition material.
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Chris, I'm not quite sure what to do with [[Composting_toilets]] and [[Composting_latrines]].  As far as I can see, there is a general confusion of terms around composting toilets, composting latrines, ecosan etc.  I dispute some of the scientific information suggested at [[Composting_latrines]], which seems to be mostly copied from the Humanure handbook - although it should be noted that humanure seems to imply adding small amounts of feces to a compost heap, whereas most NGOs/academics using the terms composting toilet (or ecosan) are referring to some kind of VIP system. I am not an engineer and so cannot speak to the shape of latrines, although I have seen various modifications from the general ideas. I was a bit thrown last week when someone suggested to me that VIP systems are anaerobic digestersAgain, I think this is a minority view, but one which some wastewater professionals hold, particularly in South Africa where municipalities invested in constructing large numbers of VIPsI think this is a contrast to the way that most NGOs refer to them. But as I noted on the page, it is perfectly possible for it to be both at the same time.  Strictly speaking, I think it would be better to discuss composting latrines vs community co-composting sites, but maybe that is making the whole thing more complex than is actually seen in the field or the way the words are normally used. [[User:Joeturner|Joeturner]] 00:45, 25 February 2013 (PST)
  
:A ''whole "Transition" section'' would be just what I've been hoping for!
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:I'm not sure either- at the moment. I've pinged some people (an ecosan & appropriate tech guy, and the Permies.com forum) and will ping others. I gave you a hat tip [https://www.facebook.com/Appropedia/posts/423515731065553 at Facebook.com/Appropedia]. That's how I ended up putting the tag on there tree clarifying pit latrines vs composting toilets. I figured you'd understand that it's meant to be constructive, and in large part is a way of telling people "Don't complain if something's missing - just get in and improve it!"
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: I'll continue to ask around. I could have a stab at explaining the difference, but I'd be sure to get details wrong, if not the whole thing,  since this isn't my area. I think I can be more helpful if I can get someone else editing. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 03:08, 25 February 2013 (PST)
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:: I totally agree with Jim's comment on facebook and added it to the talkpage.  I guess I'd like to see VIPs totally removed from the lexicon of ecosan language, but feel that it is something which is discussed as being part of the solution, hence would be odd if not mentioned on appropedia.  I notice that akvopedia have tried to reflect that difference with a separate composting latrine system category to the VIPs.  Again, this is a work-in-progress, I have not ported or started on pages about community scale co-composting yet. [[User:Joeturner|Joeturner]] 04:35, 25 February 2013 (PST)
  
:Re a portal - that would be great! We have [[portals]] already, but when I read a ''portal to all the departments'', I'm thinking of one or more portals that lay out the site's content in different ways... e.g. all the topics, and another (very relevant to TT) laying out different strategies for solving our current dilemmas. Maybe we should move much of the content from the front page onto the relevant portals, and just link to those.
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==Edits to Composting page==
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I'd just like to point you to [[Composting]] as I have made substantial edits.  I am happy to take criticism for it on [[Talk:Composting]] [[User:Joeturner|Joeturner]] 05:41, 6 February 2013 (PST)
  
:A lot of Appropedia looks like it was put together by engineers (with an emphasis on info rather than form)... which is probably because it has ''indeed'' been put together by engineers, to a large degree :-).
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== About coding to add Facebook and google button ==
  
:Agreed re the various wikis, and GWT. SCA and Appropedia are both good places to put TT material, I believe, each with their own focus (activism vs practical measures). --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] &middot; <small>[[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]</small> 21:51, 6 January 2008 (PST)
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If they add support for this kind of coding I've done it on Wikipedia it will work
  
3) copying material not under GNU. I've actually copied (and edited) quite a lot of non-GNU material for GWT re TT because it seemed "the best" and seemed important strategically. However, in all cases  I've contacted the author, explained my position, asked them to look and see if they like my work, and said I would remove it immediately if they did not. I explained that I worked proactively so that they could see if they were happy with the ''context'' in which I'd put their work on our website. I also put disclaimers where it seemed helpful. Above all I sought to work transparently in the spirit of courtesy. Well... all the material is still there...
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<pre>
  
:Fair enough, but for Appropedia we prefer to play it safer - after all, it's a wiki, and we ''encourage'' people to re-use the material, including commercially. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] &middot; <small>[[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]</small> 21:51, 6 January 2008 (PST)
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  <tr>
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  <td style="text-align:center; padding:4px;"> [[image:Facebook icon.jpg|31px|link=http://www.facebook.com|Facebook]] </td>
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  <td style="width:43%; padding:4px;"> '''[http://www.facebook.com/ Facebook]'''  </td>
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  </tr></table>
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</pre>
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[[User:User555|User555]] 11:56, 23 February 2013 (PST)
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::hi I have managed to upload a Facebook logo and link it to its page here is the code
  
4) Always I've gone for the jugular, the key issues - with courtesy - as has the whole TT movement, as they say, "below the radar". Peak Oil and CC are pressing on me constantly; the Transition initiative is so important, it's turned me inside out, as it has others - but it needs to build up more info and research structuring, underpinning it, to develop strategic answers to all the key objections - FAQ-style, like ECOROPA leaflets used to do. I now realize that our classic website format is still well-enough geared for ratcheting up strategically: I can get across key information, and friendly, practical, sensitive help on key issues, without a wiki structure. What's still missing is the x-factor - something quite unique that speaks to people, gets spotted, and catches on. Yet I am sure we're moving in that direction! I am sure it's already the best ''introduction'' anywhere to Transition! And though you need to go to Rob's and Ben's sites to take the initiative further, you can always return to our website to refresh yourself.  
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[[File:Facebook icon.jpg|60px|link=https://www.facebook.com/Appropedia|Facebook]]
  
:I know what you mean about the x-factor - some new sites (usually about much more trivial things) attract tens of thousands of registered users in a matter of months... but no point complaining. I'm wondering what will make Appropedia appealing ''and extremely useful'' to sustainability folk around the world. One key is having masses of excellent content, and I'm working on ways of accelerating this growth of content. But there's no doubt other issues as well.
 
  
:When we talk by phone I'll say a little more about what I see as the value of a wiki structure, but I do appreciate your site, and the value of an excellent introduction. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] &middot; <small>[[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]</small> 21:51, 6 January 2008 (PST)
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[[User:User555|User555]] 12:04, 23 February 2013 (PST)
  
5) It might seem I'm missing the virtues of Appropedia, but no - I just see a huge need at present to strategize, to marshall our resources, to align with Transition in particular because they sing the song closest to the planet's heart, the song of the urgency that is calling us all to transition ourselves and all our works, so we can do our best in the planetary "war effort", the "war" for Life on Planet Earth. Appropedia surely has an important potential part to play - but why don't you recast Appropedia to LOOK green? Green PLUS Appropriate Tech = Permaculture Feel. And think strategy.
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== Coding ==
  
:I'll look forward to talking to you about strategy and the site's look. I like the skin we've had for a few months, with the mudbrick pattern - but we certainly want to keep improving it. The focus on Ap tech is just a matter of who has contributed so far - I expect things to become much more well-rounded over time.
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Hi could I have some help to code sign up for newsletter please [[User:User555|User555]] 12:51, 27 February 2013 (PST)
  
:Re the value of Transition, and particularly in relation to the "war effort," I'm coming to appreciate their value much more than I did previously (especially when CC gets an equal emphasis to Peak Oil). I'll make prominent mention of them in a page I'm planning, [[sustainability as a war effort]]. (That probably needs a better title, but it's a wiki - you can change it if you have a better title!) --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] &middot; <small>[[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]</small> 22:27, 6 January 2008 (PST)
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== Portal display errors ==
  
Look forward to your comments. What time GMT can I phone you?[[User:Lucy Skywalker|Lucy Skywalker]] 14:35, 1 January 2008 (PST)
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I noticed a number of portals now have display errors. [[Portal:Service learning]] has an error message across the top of the page. The [[Portal:Energy]], [[Portal:Solar]], [[Portal:Health and safety]] and [[Portal:Water]] navboxes all display only the headers, not the content.  Do you see these errors? I saw someone has been changing a number of display templates. These errors could have occurred as a result. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 16:14, 2 March 2013 (PST)
  
:Sorry I was away when you called. You'd have a good chance of catching me most days, around 10pm to 11am GMT. It's the antipodes after all :-).
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:I don't see a problem now, and no portal or template edits have been made since your comment. Maybe a glitch in the server. Lonny and Sam are working on the server a lot lately... Did we mention we're merging with Ekopedia?
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:[[Portal:Permaculture]] is looking great! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 17:27, 2 March 2013 (PST)
  
Love your enthusiams - good to connect with someone who appreciates the critical  importance of these things. Look forward to talking! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] &middot; <small>[[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]</small> 22:08, 6 January 2008 (PST)
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::I still see all the errors in two browsers, IE8 & Chrome. I still think it's a template edit issue. Let me know what else you want in the portal. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 19:03, 2 March 2013 (PST)
  
== notes for self ==
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:::I tried on different mobile browsers and I see the parser error now - it was just partly hidden ago I didn't notice. If it's only inn the one portal, going through and comparing with non-brief portals could be fruitful. Sorry I'm not more help.
  
Idea for page and blog/forum post:
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:::I don't see a problem in the other portals, though - I see the highlighted selections as usual.
* [http://www.asialink-shh.net/node/180 Open source (free to use) software for architectural design]
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** + CAD?
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** + [[OAN]] platform,
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** + that one that Vinay mentioned that never took off (search chats)
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Forums:  
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:::I'm asking permaculture people for suggestions on portal:permaculture. Thanks again --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 21:12, 2 March 2013 (PST)
* http://forums.permaculture.org.au/ is active (and getting more active? how to reliably judge that?)
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[http://www.asialink-shh.net/ Sustainable Humane Habitat in Developing Contexts] - They seem very relevant to us and also connected historically with Engineers Without Borders UK - raise with Andrew Lamb.
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The [[Portal:Service learning]] display error (and others noted above) is still there. The message across the top goes something like this:<br>
* Bring into any discussion on [[open design]], and [[OSN]].
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"'''Warning:''' Parameter 3 to efCreateRSSReader() expected to be a reference, value given in '''/home/apropos/appropedia.org.live/includes/parser/parser.php''' on line 3470"
* Note they are ''funded by the European Commission's Asia Link Programme. This programme has been established in order to fund projects promoting Euro-Asian partnerships between research institutions addressing environmental and social challenges.'' Not exactly something we are likely to get as a US based org, but might give some ideas.  
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