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{{Appropedia:Village pump/Introduction}}
{{Appropedia:Village pump/Introduction}}


== Archive ==
== A plan for Appropedia to go places in 2013/14 ==
Older discussions can be found at the [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1|Archive1]] (older) & [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2|Archive2]] (more recent discussions). If you wish to continue those discussions, please start a new section on this page - do not add new comments to the archive page.


Here are direct links to the conversations in the archives:
Here's a stab at a '''[[Appropedia:Strategic planning/Strategic plan 2013-14|strategic plan]]''' - what do you think? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 00:28, 19 September 2013 (PDT)


'''Archive1''':  <small>[[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Organisations|Organisations]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Server performance took a dive?|Server performance took a dive?]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#approx Sep-Oct 2007|approx Sep-Oct 2007]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Agroinnovations: Call for Collaborators|Agroinnovations: Call for Collaborators]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#The Project|The Project]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Technological Possibilities|Technological Possibilities]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Solar hot water|Solar hot water]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Sustainable Energy booklet|Sustainable Energy booklet]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#How to monitor changes|How to monitor changes]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#WorldChanging.com|WorldChanging.com]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Appropedia:About or Appropedia:About_Appropedia?|Appropedia:About or Appropedia:About_Appropedia?]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#News? Wind? Transportation?|News? Wind? Transportation?]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Refining Newpageresource template & others|Refining Newpageresource template & others]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#New page templates - slim down?|New page templates - slim down?]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Nov 06 to Feb 07|Nov 06 to Feb 07]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Categorization change|Categorization change]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Two suggestions for navigation bar|Two suggestions for navigation bar]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Server performance?|Server performance?]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Attribution|Attribution]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Washing and drying clothes category|Washing and drying clothes category]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Discussion tracker|Discussion tracker]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Login problem|Login problem]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Unsigned Complement|Unsigned Complement]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Community portal & Village pump removed from sidebar?|Community portal & Village pump removed from sidebar?]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Howtopedia|Howtopedia]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Main Page tests|Main Page tests]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Should we group countries by region?|Should we group countries by region?]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Confused by sections/subsections in agriculture|Confused by sections/subsections in agriculture]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Suggest restoring "Public health" category|Suggest restoring "Public health" category]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Who works with Afro-Latino communities?|Who works with Afro-Latino communities?]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Majority world|Majority world]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#March 07 to April 08|March 07 to April 08]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#State makes big fuss over local couple|State makes big fuss over local couple]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Plural/singular titles in main space|Plural/singular titles in main space]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Category tool|Category tool]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Promote feed-back from user to designer|Promote feed-back from user to designer]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Articles on people|Articles on people]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Porting help?|Porting help?]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#"Reducing oil dependency" category name?|"Reducing oil dependency" category name?]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#"Sub-sub categories for the sub-category Demotech|"Sub-sub categories for the sub-category Demotech]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Developments in networking|Developments in networking]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#AT Theory and environmentalism|AT Theory and environmentalism]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Page substitution policy|Page substitution policy]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Porting graphical PDF Pages|Porting graphical PDF Pages]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Porting CD3WD Pages|Porting CD3WD Pages]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Proposed medical disclaimer and science disclaimer|Proposed medical disclaimer and science disclaimer]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Mark pages for rapid deletion?|Mark pages for rapid deletion?]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Copyvios? Hygiene Standard Institute and Hygiene Standard Institute (HSI)|Copyvios? Hygiene Standard Institute and Hygiene Standard Institute (HSI)]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Rambling thoughts on organizational POV|Rambling thoughts on organizational POV]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Appropedia Action Groups|Appropedia Action Groups]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Show/Hide function|Show/Hide function]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#A "License taskforce" and "Appropedia contact team"?|A "License taskforce" and "Appropedia contact team"?]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Thanks|Thanks]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Event details|Event details]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#March 07 to August 08|March 07 to August 08]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#RSS reader and running feeds on the wiki|RSS reader and running feeds on the wiki]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Where should ISBNs link to?|Where should ISBNs link to?]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#How to live on frogs|How to live on frogs]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Le puits du village|Le puits du village]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Appropedia: a wiki for solutions? (Setting our boundaries)|Appropedia: a wiki for solutions? (Setting our boundaries)]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Where do we send issues content?|Where do we send issues content?]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Announcement box|Announcement box]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#"Sustainable living" & visibility on the web|"Sustainable living" & visibility on the web]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Cheap solar air conditioner|Cheap solar air conditioner]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Trolls|Trolls]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Wiki collaboration...|Wiki collaboration...]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Human population|Human population]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Library Section?|Library Section?]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Site notice|Site notice]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#September 08 to...|September 08 to...]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Musing on subcategories for Programs|Musing on subcategories for Programs]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Preventing attack with name string|Preventing attack with name string]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Collapsing categories|Collapsing categories]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Template links to Wikipedia|Template links to Wikipedia]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Rice Hulls|Rice Hulls]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#ThinHouse|ThinHouse]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Webpage editing screen|Webpage editing screen]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Health hazard if used for drinking water|Health hazard if used for drinking water]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#How to request a category rename|How to request a category rename]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#SSB Maker|SSB Maker]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Copyright issues|Copyright issues]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#:(|:(]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Comment on the bookmark gadget|Comment on the bookmark gadget]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Layout problem|Layout problem]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#The .7B.7Bdelete.7D.7D tag|The <nowiki>{{delete}}</nowiki> tag]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#downloadable|downloadable]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#wiki-net|wiki-net]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Deletion policy|Deletion policy]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Search Appropedia with one click:  handy bookmarklets|Search Appropedia with one click:  handy bookmarklets]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#best permaculture videos, especially for dry areas|best permaculture videos, especially for dry areas]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Which external links to include in a page?|Which external links to include in a page?]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Update on attribution templates|Update on attribution templates]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive1#Article Incubator|Article Incubator]]</small>
I think its a good start. I added some comments on the Talk page there. --[[User:PatSunter|PatSunter]] ([[User talk:PatSunter|talk]]) 19:08, 12 March 2014 (PDT)


'''Archive2''': <small>[[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#Advertising?|Advertising?]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#NOINDEX tag|NOINDEX tag]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#Integrated Systems of Production|Integrated Systems of Production]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#Integrated Systems|Integrated Systems]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#Interaction and linking between Demotech, design for self-reliance and Appropedia|Interaction and linking between Demotech, design for self-reliance and Appropedia]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#You people are good! Ferreal yall!|You people are good! Ferreal yall!]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#SD wiki sites list|SD wiki sites list]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#David Reber nominated as admin|David Reber nominated as admin]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#Adminship - making two levels, and changing the name|Adminship - making two levels, and changing the name]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#Usability / Making it accessible for beginners|Usability / Making it accessible for beginners]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#Open Green Map|Open Green Map]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#I love it, I love it, I love it :)|I love it, I love it, I love it :)]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#Swadeshi Business Models with ecology as business partner|Swadeshi Business Models with ecology as business partner]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#Understanding natural systems & choices|Understanding natural systems & choices]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#References|References]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#Anonymous editing|Anonymous editing]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#Site reorganisation|Site reorganisation]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#Comparison of alternative ICE fuels|Comparison of alternative ICE fuels]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#Attribution and citation templates|Attribution and citation templates]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#Other templates|Other templates]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#Water harvesting|Water harvesting]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#Open-design software and hardware for water management|Open-design software and hardware for water management]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#Good pages on Appropedia? Please nominate!|Good pages on Appropedia? Please nominate!]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#Language learning lessons|Language learning lessons]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#AT organisations presentation, category|AT organisations presentation, category]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#Logo change|Logo change]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#Categorization|Categorization]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#Motto|Motto]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#General engineering wiki|General engineering wiki]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#AAI projects|AAI projects]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#Development category - name change.|Development category - name change.]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#How is the rich editor?|How is the rich editor?]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#Welcome committee|Welcome committee]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#windpower pages|windpower pages]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#Feedback please! Suggest moving from manual to topic pages|Feedback please! Suggest moving from manual to topic pages]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#Imported pages|Imported pages]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#Target audience Appropedia + data extrapolations|Target audience Appropedia + data extrapolations]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#CC-BY-SA page changed|CC-BY-SA page changed]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#electric circuit designs for AT|electric circuit designs for AT]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#Appropedia page name change assistance for Haiti Relief Project|Appropedia page name change assistance for Haiti Relief Project]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#Changes to the navigation sidebar|Changes to the navigation sidebar]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#Composting|Composting]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#Refridgeration|Refridgeration]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#Carbon for water/methanol filtering?|Carbon for water/methanol filtering?]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#New front page - please help with images & portals|New front page - please help with images & portals]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#How to create notices - new template|How to create notices - new template]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#Dietary reference values image|Dietary reference values image]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#Transformers|Transformers]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#Wire wrap, strip/perfboard and tubes|Wire wrap, strip/perfboard and tubes]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#FTP server/free file hosting service ?|FTP server/free file hosting service ?]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#Cost/effective development aid projects|Cost/effective development aid projects]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#FM radio broadcasts|FM radio broadcasts]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#IC engine efficiency improvements|IC engine efficiency improvements]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#Use of IC-engine without clutch or starter motor|Use of IC-engine without clutch or starter motor]] -- [[Appropedia:Village pump/Archive2#IC-engine simplifications|IC-engine simplifications]]</small>
== Thanks and good luck ==


Creating all those links seemed like a good idea, but took waaaay longer than planned even with regex search-and-replace. Looking forward to a good forum so this won't be necessary :-). --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 11:05, 13 July 2011 (PDT)
I'm outa here, folks.  Good luck with everything. Joe


== Topics that have been spun off to other pages ==
:We've chatted by email, but again, many thanks for your great work, Joe. I wish you all the best with your next adventures. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 17:53, 14 October 2013 (PDT)
To keep this page manageable, some bulky topics have been moved to their own pages
* [[Appropedia:Mission]]
* [[Appropedia:Anti-Vandalism Measures]]
* [[Appropedia:Logos]]
** Includes discussion of subtitles
* [[Appropedia talk:Technical questions]]
* [[Appropedia talk:Policy discussion]]
* [[Appropedia:Copyrights]]
* [[Main_Page_tests|Main Page prototyping page]]
* [[Appropedia:Promotion_of_Appropedia|Promotion of Appropedia]]
* [[Appropedia:Articles to translate]]
* Past discussions have been moved to [[Appropedia talk:Village pump/Archive]] for easy viewing


== Pages that advertise green businesses ==


I removed the {{tlx|delete|advertising}} from [[Beyond Building Energy]]. We have been allowing sustainable businesses to have pages about themselves. I like having such pages, especially where they have information that might be valuable to a reader, but we need to work out clearer limits. E.g. is [[Beyond Building Energy]] the sort of page we want to have on Appropedia? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] ([[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]) 21:35, 19 November 2013 (PST)


== Changing another person's project page ==
* Maybe there is a need for a template for sustainability-oriented businesses or organisations? I.E. not a delete template, but something to the effect that it is a business, Appropedia does not endorse businesses or their products, but allows relevant ones a page, so the reader should do their own research etc. I also think its ok, as long as they don't try to start inserting lots of "advertorial" style content in more Encyclopaedic pages (an issue we had a while back on [[Public transport]]). --[[User:PatSunter|PatSunter]] ([[User talk:PatSunter|talk]]) 21:06, 14 March 2014 (PDT)


One thing we haven't worked out is what limits we have to editing another person's project or organization page. A trivial example is this line from [[Usui Rice cooker]]:  
::Thanks Pat, good approach, I think. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] ([[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]) 04:58, 17 April 2014 (PDT)


:This cooker is relevant for any place where rice is a grown and is a staple of the diet (all of Asia, as well as parts of Africa and South America).
::Yes, good approach. Here's another wiki's page on the topic: [https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Wikivoyage:Welcome,_business_owners]? [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] ([[User talk:Pashley|talk]]) 10:57, 17 April 2014 (PDT)


I've changed "all of Asia" to "most of Asia," to be more accurate. I don't think the author will mind, though they might think I'm pedantic. My concern is that there will be cases where more controversial changes might be made. Does the project's author have the final say, is it a question of consensus in the same way as any other wiki page, or do we need a different approach. There's a problem if the author has the final say, as the claims may be misled (cars that run on water) or even deliberately misleading (I can sell you a kit to make your car run on water). Perhaps we should go with the "same way as any other wiki page" but be open to letting the policy develop as we go? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 05:52, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
== spammness ==
:I think the need for Appropedia to be based on facts should override any ownership objection to minor factual corrections. I'd hesitate to make wholesale edits to someone else's article. As a courtesy, one should leave a note about the change on the "owning" user's talk page, just in case he or she wasn't watching the page in question. Because it would seem the page owner takes credit for the page and would want to be aware of what he or she appears to be saying on it. Think of it like editing a book. Editors assist authors all the time, but never without the author's active awareness. The author has to approve whatever the editor changes, because the author's name goes on the book. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 21:00, 8 January 2011 (PST)
::Belated comment: do we have a policy or guideline on user space essays? I'd like to keep article space as factual as possible, where a "fact" is something that all sane people can agree on, and confine assertions of opinion to user space essays. Users can have more freedom to express their personal opinions on user subpages, but I'd still like every opinion to be labeled as an opinion rather than implied to be a fact by asserting it with no qualification. Readers should be made aware of whether they are reading facts generally accepted as true, or just one particular side of some raging controversy. I.e., assertions should not float around independently of their context. Unfortunately, too many people tend to hold their beliefs independently of such context. That is, they just believe whatever they believe, without being mindful of the existence of other opinions about some of their beliefs. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 12:58, 1 November 2011 (PDT)
::Interesting. To what extent do we see userspace as a free speech zone? There are limits (I think we'd all agree on no hate speech) but this is setting a much higher standard that many people just won't get, especially to start with. I prefer the kind of self-aware writing/advocacy that you're advocating, but I'm not sure if we should be enforcing it. (That's not a euphemism for "I don't think we should..." I just mean I'm not sure.) --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 18:50, 1 November 2011 (PDT)
:::I'm thinking about examples we have discussed on this very page of articles that contain prescriptive rather than descriptive content, or religious claims. As long as content is not actionable, libelous, illegal, etc. I see little harm in letting it live in user space as long as it is clearly labeled as opinion (see [[wikipedia:Template:Essay]] which I would like to port to {{SITENAME}}). Anything on {{SITENAME}} is subject to the approval of the {{SITENAME}} community and that should be an appropriate check on user space essays. The idea is not to unleash some new type of content on {{SITENAME}} but merely to relocate some of the personal opinion content that has been finding its way into article space.
:::My personal interest in this is because I would like to write some [[wikipedia:WP:SYNTHESIS|synthetic]] essays about topics such as:
:::* What would actually have to happen for the [[Keystone XL pipeline]] extension to not be built
:::* The efficacy of personal action to reduce greenhouse gas emissions - does it matter if we take the jet flight for example?
:::* Speculation about the future prospects for eco-robotics
:::* <small>(11:53, 2 November 2011 (PDT): adding another topic:)</small> What I have done to cut my personal carbon footprint, and what I have learned from the exercise about what it would actually take to stabilize atmospheric carbon dioxide concentration at some level that might minimize the risk of dangerous climate change
:::(By "[[wikipedia:WP:SYNTHESIS|synthetic]]" I mean essays that cite reliable sources for all their factual claims, but combine them to produce conclusions not present in any particular source.)
:::I could edit what I want to say about the [[Keystone XL pipeline]] into the existing article, but my contribution would not be particularly encyclopedic, as I would be advocating for a particular course of action (namely, action to reduce the demand for liquid fuels which I believe is driving the exploitation of Canada's tar sands). Then again, the existing article is not particularly encyclopedic. But I would find it easier to say what I want to say in a user space essay, keeping my exposition coherent, and then if the community approved of working some of it into the article proper we could do that. I'm not so much interested in shaping {{SITENAME}}'s "official" stance on particular topics as to have a platform where I can work out my current positions on them. I find when I engage in online discussions, there are points I want to make which are complex, unobvious, and require a lot of background, and I can't always find an existing page on the Web somewhere that I can cite to explain what I'm talking about.
:::Alternatively I could set up a blog site and write essays on it, but I'd just as soon use my user space on {{SITENAME}} because I like editing on [[MediaWiki]]. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 19:59, 1 November 2011 (PDT)
::::Ok, this is now getting very interesting. I see no problem at all in what you propose under existing [[A:policies]] and [[A:guidelines]]. (We only have proposed guidelines actually, and mainly have proposed policies.) And as you can see, you're being a lot more cautious and deliberate about it than much of what happens on Appropedia - which is good, because:
::::(A) it helps us decide what we want to do
::::(B) there's some flaky stuff on Appropedia - though a fair bit less now, after recent deletions and moving-to-userspace. (I've seen Lonny doing some much-needed deletion, and I've made a habit of clicking random repeatedly, tweeting/FB-sharing/"Liking" good pages and dealing with problematic pages. But I digress.)
::::In fact, the content you're proposing is the kind of thing I'd like to see a lot more of. Distinguishing between "sourced" and "synthetic" is very valuable in thinking about this. One thing we haven't had a lot of is multiple editors working on analytical/synthetic content, but I'm keen to see how it goes. There's also a place for individual perspectives that aren't directly edited by others, but I'd imagine those remaining in userspace.
::::What would make you comfortable in starting to write on Appropedia about the topics you mention - e.g. re liquid fuel and the Keystone XL pipeline? Do you want to make a proposed policy or guideline, based on what you've said above? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 22:08, 1 November 2011 (PDT)
:::::*Comfort: I'm comfortable now. (You plus me equals consensus, it seems. Just kidding - I think.) I have some notes and references on my personal (offline) wiki that I can transcribe to {{SITENAME}}. My main concern is to maximize the comfort of the rest of the community. That is, to make sure everyone who might have an interest in what I would write, whether positive or negative, understands the structure in which we can express our ideas and debate them. I think it is less than optimally productive for debate to play out in the form of [[wikipedia:WP:EDSUM|edit summaries]] to articles in article space. It would be better, I think, to let each person have their user space as a kind of refuge where they elaborate their ideas, and then we discuss on talk pages somewhere (perhaps on this page, unless it gets overloaded) what the "official" {{SITENAME}} article about a topic should say. As I mentioned, I am not too concerned about whether I agree with what the article on a topic says - I will happily defer to the community - as long as I have a place to write what I think about it. On Wikipedia, controversial articles may come to resemble [[wikipedia:Professional wrestling match types#Enclosure-based variations|steel cage matches]], I suspect in part because people with uncompromising opinions lack a separate platform where they can write what they think. Wikipedia has a policy against advocating for particular positions anywhere on the site, including user pages. I don't think we need that restriction on {{SITENAME}}, primarily because the diversity of opinion is less here. Just about everyone who edits on {{SITENAME}} probably agrees we face large environmental and humanitarian crises; any disagreements are more likely to be over the details of how we might solve them. We probably don't have too many people who, for example, explicitly deny the existence of man-made global warming. If necessary we might have something like a "Lonny test" - you can advocate for anything you want in your user space as long as [[User:Lonny|Lonny]] is cool with it. That might sound kind of facetious but in fact on every wiki what is allowable must ultimately come down to one person who has the final say, as necessary to break deadlocks when the community cannot reach consensus. (On Wikipedia, [[wikipedia:User:Jimbo|Jimbo]] has the final say, but he exercises it rarely.)
:::::*Guideline: I can work on a draft. My notes are in [[U:TT#ESSAY]].
:::::**A side note: it seems we have some "proposed" [[:Category:Appropedia proposed policies|policies]] and [[:Category:Appropedia proposed guidelines|guidelines]] that seem to remain "proposed" forever. Perhaps this is because we have primarily one user (you) who seems to propose them, and then nobody else weighs in. It would be nice to somehow tie up these loose ends. For example, if a guideline has been in the "proposed" state for more than a year, perhaps we could [[A:BOLD|be bold]] and automatically promote it to a real guideline. If someone objects later, we can always debate the guideline then. On a wiki, everything is subject to revision in perpetuity.
:::::--[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 11:53, 2 November 2011 (PDT)
::::::I agree with all your comments above. I look forward to seeing your articles - I won't look at drafts right now as I need to escape the internet vortex.
::::::I'm happy with the Lonny test as a last resort - good to decide that in advance. In practice Lonny is big on consensus and not big on enforcing his opinion, but will look for a solution when someone is putting garbage on the site, so I don't foresee a problem there.
::::::"We probably don't have too many people who, for example, explicitly deny the existence of man-made global warming." Indeed. I do know one who is doubtful and suspicious of the IPCC etc, but not a hardcore "It's all a lie!" type, and not someone who'll cause problems in edit wars or major arguments on site.
::::::"For example, if a guideline has been in the "proposed" state for more than a year, perhaps we could [[A:BOLD|be bold]] and automatically promote it to a real guideline." '''First thoughts''': Sounds good. My suggestion for "best practice" is: If possible, flag the particular policies and guidelines that are planned for upgrade a week or two in advance, on Village Pump; the person who promotes it to policy/guideline status should not be the major contributor to the drafting of it; and the upgrading is announced on the Village Pump, along with a brief and accurate summary of the new policy/guideline and a note that it remains open to reversion and revision. '''Second thoughts''': If people don't actively object, there's a bias towards instruction creep{{w|Instruction creep}} here (and note the Wikipedia essay [[wikipedia:Wikipedia:Avoid instruction creep]]. At the very least, we need to ask ourselves before promoting a policy or guideline: ''Is this really necessary? Can it be simplified'' I'm ok with not everything I wrote getting approved - I'm sure I've changed my mind on some of it anyway. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 02:08, 3 November 2011 (PDT)
:::::::I consider [[wikipedia:WP:CREEP]] to be unfortunately ignorant of what actually makes Wikipedia work, which is having extremely complete written instructions. See [[wikipedia:WP:NOCOMMON|there is no common sense]]. WP:CREEP reminds me too much of those programmers with borderline [[wikipedia:Asperger syndrome]] and minimal verbal skills, who seem to believe if something is obvious to them then it is obvious to everyone. The world has many people like that who churn out confusion and horizontal fragmentation every day. (By "horizontal fragmentation" I mean making things different in ways which provide no net improvement, such as having 50 different functionally equivalent word processing programs that all have different commands to do the same tasks. Thus the urge to "simplify" by not writing detailed instructions actually ends up making things more complex, as you end up with excessive variation providing no benefit, which people must then deal with.) I'd say if WP:CREEP has a point, it would be to avoid writing bad instructions, that is instructions which do not reflect the actual practice of the editing community. But the claim that "nobody reads the instructions" is just dumbfounding - people who don't read instructions on Wikipedia simply create problems that have to be fixed by people who do read the instructions. Over time, the people who refuse to read instructions find themselves embroiled in various controversies, and they tend to get discouraged and leave. They become what [[wikipedia:Fred Brooks|Fred Brooks]] called "[http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/gbell/high_tech_ventures/00000146.htm negatively productive people]". In a dispute on Wikipedia, odds are one or both sides do not understand the relevant instructions, because most disputes on Wikipedia are repeats of past disputes, whose resolutions were encoded into guidelines or policies. Instructions (and [[wikipedia:WP:SHORTCUT|shortcuts]] that point to them) are also vital for leaving understandable [[wikipedia:WP:EDITSUMMARY|edit summaries]], especially for formal edits (edits that change the article format rather than the content).
:::::::Appropedia has far less written instruction than Wikipedia, and we suffer for it. For example, look at the inconsistency of article titles, which is what to expect when everybody relies on their (wildly diverse) common sense. See my notes about this problem in [[U:TT#Naming convention]]. One might think this sort of inconsistency does not matter, but I believe it does, since it discourages collaboration. When an article's style reflects the idiosyncrasies of some particular person, another person may feel inhibited about contributing, since that runs the risk of confronting the original author over a style issue instead of the content. When a site enforces a consistent style site-wide, then it is much easier for additional users to contribute, since they have fewer questions about what they should do, and therefore fewer things to argue about. Ultimately, if there are enough rules and instructions, editing could (almost) be reduced to an algorithm. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 12:32, 1 August 2012 (PDT)
{{undent}} I agree in part - certainly there are matters such as page titles where we do need to have a convention and stick to it, or else we continue to not look professional. (Technically we're not meant to be professional, being a volunteer collaboration, but you get my drift.)<br>
Maybe there are ways we could make instructions & policies easier to follow - e.g. have a "human-readable version" at the top of the page, a la CC licenses. Something could be done with documentation on templates, as well - I don't know if it's the format, but Wikipedia-style documentation is hard to read for me. Makes my eyes glaze over - I can only guess how a non-wikiholic would feel looking at such documentation. (I value the porting efforts - we do need those instructions. I'm just wondering if simple things like spacing and changing the background color would improve readability over the Wikipedia-style layout.) --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 10:16, 4 August 2012 (PDT)
:On the difference between "looking professional" and "being professional":
:* To "be professional" we would have to get paid to contribute. We don't, so we aren't, in the technical sense.
:* However, we can still "look professional" in the sense that the work we do for free is of high enough quality to be worth paying for. The Open Source movement is based on this premise - free stuff would not be as compelling if it was always guaranteed to be of lower quality than proprietary stuff. Proprietary vendors would have little to fear from open source in that case. Obviously, if open source material is to be credible, it must be of the same standard as copyrighted stuff. And one thing all competent publishers have is a consistent style, either across all their material, or at a minimum within each publication. When you see a publication that looks like a [[wikipedia:rebus|rebus]], it's harder to take seriously. A volunteer collaboration that is harder to take seriously will tend to put off serious collaborators. That is, the people who are capable of producing professional-quality content and might do it for free.
:On the difficulty of reading documentation:
:* Wikipedia's instructions are difficult for many people to read, in a start to finish sense like one reads a novel. They are probably difficult even for most Wikipedia editors to read that way. And yet Wikipedia's pages show remarkable conformance to its rules, such as [[wikipedia:WP:LAYOUT]] and the rest of the style and naming conventions. How can this be? Quite easily: Wikipedia obviously does not rely on everybody reading all the rules start to finish like a novel before they get started. New editors will unwittingly violate many rules. More experienced editors will correct their violations, and leave [[wikipedia:WP:EDITSUMMARY|edit summaries]] that refer to the rules (or better which link to the rules being applied via [[A:SC|shortcuts]] e.g. [[wikipedia:WP:LOWERCASE]]). A new editor who notices that something he or she edited has changed can look at the [[wikipedia:WP:PAGEHISTORY|history]] of a page, read the relevant edit summary, and browse directly to the rule that was applied. As long as the link destination is a reasonably self-contained description of that rule, the new editor should be able to comprehend it, and then go on to apply it to other non-conforming edits while leaving the same quality of breadcrumb documentation in edit summaries. In this way the rules get woven into the structure of the edit histories of many pages, making each page self-documenting in terms of its rule violations and corrections. Thus each new editor can be efficiently apprenticed by experienced editors, and can possibly avoid ever having to read all the rules straight through like a novel (although there is value to doing so at some point, to get a global view of the individual rules he or she had internalized from experience).
:* A person's eyes "glaze over" when they read voluminous material that is irrelevant to what they are thinking about at the moment. Wikipedia's rules are extremely detailed, to cover every possible case. A given editor probably doesn't run into every possible case. Thus the [[wikipedia:Pareto rule]] applies - a small percentage of the rules will be relevant to a given editor most of the time. The beauty of accessing the rule documentation via edit summaries is that the editor is then highly likely to be looking at rules which are personally relevant, namely rules that answer the question the editor has framed at that time: why did this other editor change my stuff? Getting the answer to your question is highly relevant and allows your brain to bring its full concentration to bear. Hence, no eyes glazing over.
:--[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 11:59, 5 November 2012 (PST)


== Category cleanup ==
Hey I am sorry but I face the spam problem too. I've tried change the content of the page Cshr25, and I was sure I got logged in. No idea why it treated me as a spammer.<br />
I couldn't even leave a message on the supporter's page. {{unsigned|Cshr25 |21 January 2014}}


For [[:Category:Locations]], I'm thinking a slightly simpler version of Wikipedia's structure. (If it needs to get more complex later, that's fine, but for now I'm just putting continents straight under Locations, and sticking to, e.g. [[:Category:North America]], rather than having a subcategory [[:Category:North American countries]].)
:(For the record, this was resolved. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] ([[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]) 04:46, 17 April 2014 (PDT))


Some category names aren't obvious - e.g. [[:Category:Georgia (country)]], since Georgia is also a state of the US (and probably a few lesser-known places too). But we're generally agreed here that following what Wikipedia has settled on is an easy and good path in most things, failing other compelling reasons.
== Exemplar city? ==


Changes I've made include:
An article [http://www.directionsmag.com/channels/remote-sensing/articles/huntsville-alabama-an-exemplar-city-model-for-geospatial-energy-and-cy/393539] on work in Huntsville, Alabama on tornado resistance, "micro-grid" energy sources, sustainable tech, ... [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] ([[User talk:Pashley|talk]]) 11:18, 15 April 2014 (PDT)
* [[:Category:United States]] rather than [[:Category:USA]].
* Merging [[:Category:North American countries]] (& deleting it - only had one page in it) to [[:Category:North America]]
* Editing a lot of pages in [[:Category:Organizations]] to move them to a "sharper" category, i.e. a more specific one.


Two questions:
:That's very cool! I wonder what it would take to find students interested in developing pages on this. This touches on a bunch of important topics. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] ([[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]) 04:36, 17 April 2014 (PDT)
* [[:Category:Organizations based in the United States]] is slightly different in meaning from [[:Category:United States organizations]], but the difference is minor enough (and fuzzy enough) that we probably don't need to worry for now. I prefer the second one for simplicity and being easier to remember - what do you think?
* "Renewable energy" seems unnecessary as a category, and I think it adds to the category clutter - most of what's on Appropedia is renewable. Better to just have "Energy," that can include everything, to be described and assessed on their own merits. Is it ok if I remove [[:Category:Renewable energy]]?


I'll keep plugging away at this, using Pywikipediabot to make the category moves easier, and to do the text replace for putting things in more specific categories. (I manually check each edit.) I want to deal with the glaring errors for now, at least.
== Solar at Canadian latitudes? ==


Any other big category cleanups that need doing? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 12:15, 27 April 2011 (PDT)
An Indian reservation with a [http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunder-bay/deer-lake-first-nation-cuts-ribbon-on-solar-project-1.2612020 solar project]. This is a fairly isolated community; I do not think it is on the electric grid or that it is reachable by road. It is not in the far North, only Northern Ontario so laititude below 60. [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] ([[User talk:Pashley|talk]]) 19:59, 17 April 2014 (PDT)
:I agree on your proposed merge of [[:Category:United States organizations]].
:I would prefer to keep [[:Category:Renewable energy]] because articles about non-renewable energy could be useful to Appropedia's mission to promote sustainability, for example by documenting the extent to which various non-renewable energy sources are not sustainable. How does coal compare to tar sands and shale gas, for example? Issues like carbon accounting, life cycle analysis, and peak oil are likely to impact on Appropedia's users. As will the merging of the food and fuel markets (when the price of oil rises, the price of food rises too now). Most if not all of Appropedia's users probably have a foot planted in each world, as we probably all burn some fossil fuels directly or indirectly. Petroleum-fueled travel and appropriate technology seem to go together like conjoined twins. If the appropriate technology agenda depends on the continued availability of cheap petroleum, we should document the extent of it, if only to consider what happens when petroleum is no longer cheap. Will the appropriate technology enterprise survive if long-distance travel is no longer a possibility for most people? --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 14:43, 6 May 2011 (PDT)


== Correspondence with Volunteers in Technical Assistance ==
== New type of axe for splitting wood ==


Appropedia has a lot of information from [[Volunteers in Technical Assistance]]. I recently contacted Enterprise Works which is the current name for VITA to try and clarify the license for these and see if their content could be released under the CC-BY-SA license. They replied by asking about the permission under which this content got reposted on Appropedia. The correspondence is posted at [[Talk:Volunteers_in_Technical_Assistance]].
Where does [http://www.geek.com/news/physics-exploiting-axe-splits-wood-in-record-time-1591725/ this] fit in? Inventor & press make some rather strong claims for it. [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] ([[User talk:Pashley|talk]]) 16:03, 22 April 2014 (PDT)


I understand all this content is transferred from Alex Weir's CD3WD CDOM and also from some microfiche. Can anyone point me to the permission applying here? I will copy any definite info to the VITA talk page so we have a record there.--[[User:Joe Raftery|Joe Raftery]] 16:15, 29 April 2011 (PDT)
== Content types ==


:We inherited the content in a merger, and while we were told we had permission, we weren't given evidence. I put on the {{tl|open access}} tags, to make it clear that we didn't have clear permission under our license... and to stop people contributing to those pages, when we weren't sure of having permission to modify.
I can tell there's been a lot of effort to organize Appropedia by topics/ subject matter. But I'm wondering if there's been much in the way of organizing by content type? Appropedia's content is much broader than traditional wikis. From what I can see there's: 1) articles, 2) manuals/ how-tos, 3) specific project/ experiment write-ups, and 4) raw data. Maybe we could have a convo about if this kind of organization would be helpful for users and if so how to do it. --[[User:Ethan|Ethan]] ([[User talk:Ethan|talk]]) 19:06, 22 April 2014 (PDT)


:Either permission was given casually by someone at VITA (an email or phone call) or, most likely, someone from the earlier project saw VITA content reproduced openly elsewhere, and assumed it was ok to use.  
:Agreed - a good start would be clarifying the exact classifications for pages we have. "Designs" seems like another type of content, but perhaps these will fit into projects or how-tos. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] ([[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]) 02:00, 23 April 2014 (PDT)


:I'm not sure of Alex Weir's exact permission, but I'm sure someone at VITA would have given him permission to use the info on his CDs. That doesn't automatically mean we can use it.
:Another kind of content is essays. These may be high in narrative or experience, e.g. [[Reversing Soil Degradation of Agricultural Lands]]. These are about the topic, but probably should stand alone, separate from a topic page. I'd like to have a naming convention, so they can be easily recognised. Should they start with "Essay:"? Should they be capitalised? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] ([[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]) 05:28, 21 August 2014 (PDT)


:I look forward to having this sorted out. While I'd like us to be able to keep the content on Appropedia (even open it up as CC-BY-SA), we will do the right thing legally and ethically.
::As I was organizing the permaculture category, I realized that designs are an essential area to work on. Perhaps we could use custom namespaces. I see that there's already Original: , but that seems to have more to do with attribution than content type. Another option might just be to use categories, but I don't know if it would make site navigation feel messy to have content types and subject matter organized that way. --[[User:Ethan|Ethan]] ([[User talk:Ethan|talk]]) 10:18, 17 May 2015 (PDT)


:Thanks for taking this up. I've emailed you with a few details. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 21:38, 1 May 2011 (PDT)
== Food crops & nitrogen-fixing bacteria ==


::As we don't seem to have permission I phoned them today to see what I could work out. See the discussion on [[Talk:Volunteers in Technical Assistance]] and the rewritw of the [[Volunteers in Technical Assistance]] page.
Three teenaged Irish girls got the top prize at a Google Science Fair with work that looks rather interesting:
http://www.independent.ie/business/technology/news/irish-teenagers-bag-top-prize-at-google-science-fair-2014-30607710.html


::I have agreed to add <nowiki>{{Template:VITA}}</nowiki> to pages with their content for now.
== Is anyone interested in a guide to Greenwashing? ==
{{Template:VITA}}


::They have agreed to think about their licensing strategy and come back to us on this sometime in the next few weeks/months.--[[User:Joe Raftery|Joe Raftery]] 14:33, 3 May 2011 (PDT)
I would like to make a page on the practice of companies presenting themselves as environmentally friendly when they are not in reality (a.k.a. "greenwashing") but I'm not sure if it's something the community is interested in: this isn't a guide for a specific project or proposal for a kind of technology. Is this fit for Appropedia? [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 10:43, 7 October 2014 (PDT)


== reCPATCHA for account registration? ==
:I think it's a good fit for Appropedia.
:(Searching…) Aha – we have a page called [[greenwash]]. What do you think of moving that to [[greenwashing]] and developing it further? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] ([[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]) 16:07, 7 October 2014 (PDT)
::Ha. I didn't even think to search [[greenwash]]. I'll see if I can add to that. Thanks. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 10:12, 9 October 2014 (PDT)


I've noticed that there's a lot of discussion about the number of spam accounts being created. Would it be possible to stop this using a better captcha? There are two (simple looking) extensions for this. https://code.google.com/apis/recaptcha/docs/mediawiki.html and http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:ReCAPTCHA . The first seems to be more what would be needed. It forces users to complete a captcha for new accounts and anonymous edits with external links. --[[User:Tahnok|Tahnok]] 11:22, 2 May 2011 (PDT)
== Any overlap here? ==


:We'd love help with this. For at least some of the extensions, work needs to be done with image libraries, and that's what's held us back.
[http://www.survivorlibrary.com/ Survivor Library], for tech that might work after collapse of civilisation. e.g. An early 20th century text on X-rays, the idea being that with that plus basic electrical & glass-blowing skills you might be able to build a medically useful machine from scratch.


:If you're interested, you could help test out one or more [[mw:Category:Spam_management_extensions|anti-spam extensions]] on the [http://cotw.cc/wiki/ Coalition of the Willing wiki] - I'm involved there, and they need help. Then on our own dev wiki, before going live. (Or start on the dev wiki, but it will be more interesting to work on a live wiki that's currently under a spam attack.) That would be fantastic.
This is not closely related to anything we do here, but it might include some books of interest. It seems worth a link, but where? [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] ([[User talk:Pashley|talk]]) 08:35, 28 October 2014 (PDT)


:Btw, I just discovered that [[mw:Extension:AkismetKlik|Akismet]] is available for MediaWiki - that and Bad Behavior (which I often suggest) are potentially very valuable tools, as long as false positives don't create a bad experience for affected users. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 23:08, 2 May 2011 (PDT)


:: Are there many unregistered edits that are spammy? It seems a lot of the spam comes from accounts made by a spam bot. I'm gonna try on the devwiki first just because I have little experience with installing extensions and I'd rather not mess up a live wiki. [[User:Tahnok|Tahnok]] 07:46, 3 May 2011 (PDT)
:Cool! Probably we want a {{tlc|Collapse}}, or {{tlc|Post collapse}}? We don't have a lot of content directly addressing this, but it's definitely on topic. (Personally, I think the chances of modern society really collapsing are very low. ''However'', I do believe in being prepared, and that compiling the info has other benefits.)
:So, where... an initial article could be called [[Recovering from collapse]], say? Just a thought. Be bold :). --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] ([[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]) 20:16, 29 October 2014 (PDT)
::Love it. I often think of appropriate technologies as epi-apocalyptic technologies that we build in the race against collapse. The bonus is that if we do not make it in time, the technology knowledge can be there for the rebuild/re-imagine. --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] ([[User talk:Lonny|talk]]) 21:29, 29 October 2014 (PDT)
:::From the looks of it, the content of the site is mostly public domain manuals/ how-tos from the 19th-early 20th century. Certainly there's a lot of commonalities between what people were doing then and the current approaches of appropriate tech and the transition movement. But there's also plenty of "bad ideas" from back then (like just about any application of lead). That aside, how could these two sites interact? Appropedia seems to be pretty averse to PDFs, which is Survivor Library's bread and butter. For the present SL can be used to identify content areas we're lacking here (like beekeeping) and linking to those that are covered here. --[[User:Ethan|Ethan]] ([[User talk:Ethan|talk]]) 09:38, 17 May 2015 (PDT)


:::Spam bots on wikis always register first - that's the pattern in recent months. Occasional spam will come from IPs.
== Media idea ==
Hi been a long time.. just checking in to say that I've been thinking in a similar way about this, thinking that there are few forms of media which are written as if collapse is a real possibility (and, having been to a few academic conferences about this in recent months, I think it is a lot more likely than many might think) - or even if it isn't, talking as if the changes we need to make to our lifestyles in the face of climate change are real, serious and urgent. Which, I think, probably amount to the same kind of thing.  I was even vaguely contemplating starting a [http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Main_Page wikinews] clone to start putting out news written on that basis. Oh yes, I forgot to say that since I've been away, I've kinda become a journalist.. as you do! [[User:Joeturner|Joeturner]] ([[User talk:Joeturner|talk]]) 09:20, 10 November 2014 (PST)


:::Btw, there may be useful info here: [[mw:Category:Spam_management_extensions]] and [[mw:Manual:Combating_spam]]. Also, the [http://cotw.cc/wiki/ Coalition of the Willing wiki] just had Bad Behavior installed, so we'll see how that goes. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 10:58, 3 May 2011 (PDT)
:Hi Joe. Thumbs up for all those thoughts.
:Could Appropedia be the platform, or at least an incubator, for your news site idea? (Side note: "Collapsonomics" springs to mind for the economics section of such a project.) --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] ([[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]) 14:48, 10 November 2014 (PST)


::::I took a look at both of those pages, pretty good resources. [[User:Tahnok|Tahnok]] 14:20, 3 May 2011 (PDT)
::Hi Chris - well I'm really throwing it out for discussion rather than suggesting that I have a 'ready made' idea.  There are significant problems with the model from wikinews which makes it very bland and has a very tortuous process to get to publication - I am not sure that is really necessary.  Also there is no need to feel pressure to generate a lot of daily content.  So I guess I'm thinking something which is a bit more than a blog, but a lot less work than a full news site - perhaps including interviews with people involved in relevant stuff (including but not exclusively appropredia projects), discussion of relevant issues etc. It could, perhaps, be intended to be a monthly mag (newsletter or whatever) but with articles coming out as and when during that time. 


::::So it seems that the dev wiki (and thus the main wiki) is unable to use the basic recaptcha extension because it conflicts with ConfirmEdit. The more recent versions of ConfirmEdit contain code for reCAPTCHA, but it's only available for mediawiki 1.16 which the dev wiki is not. Would it be a good idea to upgrade the dev wiki to 1.16? In the end I enabled MathCaptcha on the dev wiki. It's the same as the default, only the question is presented in an image instead of as plaintext. --[[User:Tahnok|Tahnok]] 14:20, 3 May 2011 (PDT)
::I think it could work as opensource - providing everyone understood some basic rules and there were some protections to prevent people getting misquoted etc.  I suppose I see it a bit more like an open review system to improve content which is eventually 'published' (and no longer open for editing). Dunno, just a thought really. [[User:Joeturner|Joeturner]] ([[User talk:Joeturner|talk]]) 02:41, 11 November 2014 (PST)


:::::I guess reCAPTCHA would be an alternative to ConfirmEdit, so ConfirmEdit should be disabled? The approach you've taken is interesting, and probably very effective.  
:::''"I'm thinking something which is a bit more than a blog, but a lot less work than a full news site - perhaps including interviews with people involved in relevant stuff (including but not exclusively appropredia projects), discussion of relevant issues etc."'' – I like it. To do it in a collaborative way means that an existing site (with lots of suitable users already registered) would be a good place, but maybe that's my bias. To do it in an open source way, MediaWiki has some advantages.
:::In any case it sounds like something that I'd like to support, partly because it's a good idea and partly because I know that you're smart and no-nonsense. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] ([[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]) 16:16, 24 November 2014 (PST)


:::::At some point we'll need to decide whether we want people to figure out simple math (ok for most people, but some people are blind to mathematics - dyscalculia) or work out an image. Another option that would probably work for a short time is something like "enter the word '''wiki'''" or "What color is the sky?" - I've seen that work on other sites. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 05:01, 4 May 2011 (PDT)
:Sounds like a potentially great project, Joe. I've been watching the collapse discourse for awhile. What info sources there are leave a lot to be desired. The main thing I'd like to see is something with a lot more fact-based approach. There are some staid and insightful media like John Michael Greer's blog and the C-Realm podcast, but there's also a lot of tin foil types. --[[User:Ethan|Ethan]] ([[User talk:Ethan|talk]]) 09:54, 17 May 2015 (PDT)


::::::Actually I think using an upgraded version of ConfirmEdit would be best. It can be setup to ask simple questions from a file like the questions you mentioned. I like reCAPTCHA because it's the most advanced captcha and it has the option for audio captcha should the person trying to setup an account be blind.
== Farm Hack ==


::::::As for people who have trouble with captchas, I took a look at wikipedia's solution and they have a form you can fill out to request an account. I'm guessing that a human takes a look at the requests and decides whether or not to create new accounts. --[[User:Tahnok|Tahnok]] 10:14, 4 May 2011 (PDT)
[[Farm Hack]] looks like prime partners for Appropedia - we should be encouraging cross pollination. -- [[User:J.M.Pearce|Joshua]] ([[User talk:J.M.Pearce|talk]]) 06:38, 6 February 2015 (PST)
:::::::Yes, having a human review account requests (e.g. "Summarize what you want to do on Appropedia") might be the most effective CAPTCHA method short of meeting a human in real life. The main drawback is that it is slow and creates some labor cost. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 14:46, 6 May 2011 (PDT)
:Thanks Joshua. I'll drop them a line. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] ([[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]) 05:04, 7 February 2015 (PST)
::::::::I'm not suggesting that all accounts be vetted by humans, but I think there should be the option to fill out a form for those who can't complete the captcha process --[[User:Tahnok|Tahnok]] 11:10, 7 May 2011 (PDT)
{{undent}} I think the number of people who would need help would be small, esp if we use reCaptcha with its audio option. So the ideal solution, I think, is:
* reCaptcha (scrapping ConfirmEdit if it gets in the way - it's done well for us, but no problem with changing), with...
* an option for vetted registration (keeping it simple but spam proof)
Don't worry too much about the ideal, though - let's take it step by step. And this is just my take on it.


Update on Bad Behavior - using it on its own on cotw.cc hasn't helped. That would be a good place to try reCaptcha (after it's within on the dev wiki). Wesley, I've put you in touch by email with Michael Maranda, who oversees tech work on cotw.cc. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 21:03, 7 May 2011 (PDT)
== LH side bar link for sustainable community action ==


== Skin help ==
There are now quite a few (c. 300) pages in the [[:Category:Sustainable community action]]. It'd be good if we could have some kind of link from the left hand menu (just to [[Sustainable community action]], the sca main page), perhaps near the collaborators box? {{unsigned|Philralph|17 February 2015‎}}


Hello all
:Thanks Philralph – you're doing great work. I added it under "areas", as "Community action" so that it fits. ("Collaborators" was intended for external partners, so it didn't seem right.) How is that? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] ([[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]) 15:16, 23 February 2015 (PST)


Not sure if this is the right section, but I figure the people I need are probably watching this page. I'm trying to get a copy of Appropedia's skin working on my own wiki for development purposes but I just can't seem to manage it. I've copied all the files in the mediawiki Skins folder I still get the default skin. Where on earth is Appropedia's skin hiding? --[[User:Tahnok|Tahnok]] 13:05, 12 May 2011 (PDT)
::Excellent! Thanks Chris [[User:Philralph|Philralph]] ([[User talk:Philralph|talk]]) 01:27, 24 February 2015 (PST)
:Sorry I can't be more helpful... but I assume it's the same as in any MediaWiki installation, so  #mediawiki on freenode will probably be helpful? I've found it useful at times.
:Re where to post, I think [[Appropedia talk:Tech intern team]] is best - but you can always place a pointer to the question on this page, especially while the tech intern team page is still gearing up. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 08:55, 17 May 2011 (PDT)
::I've answered my own question. You can create a page called MediaWiki:SkinName.css and it will apply any css to SkinName. Appropedia and the dev wiki both have one setup for monobook. --[[User:Tahnok|Tahnok]] 13:25, 18 May 2011 (PDT)
:::Ah, I should have known that. Glad you found it! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 21:35, 18 May 2011 (PDT)


== Topical navboxes ==
== Translation students on Wikipedia ==


{{Navboxes
Sharing this link because it may be relevant to Appropedia and Ekopedia, as we work to connect the different language wikis: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2014-01-29/Recent_research Translation students embrace Wikipedia assignments, but find user interface frustrating]. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] ([[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]) 04:44, 24 Februa ry 2015 (PST)
|title      = I wonder what's in this navbox
:: What's the progress on that project? I'd be glad to help port stuff once I'm finished with Permaculture.info. Unfortunately, I don't know French, but it looks like there's lots of great English-language content and images. --[[User:Ethan|Ethan]] ([[User talk:Ethan|talk]]) 09:17, 17 May 2015 (PDT)
|state      = uncollapsed
|liststyle  = padding:2px;font-size:111%;text-align:left;
|list        =
I started trying out how the {{tl|navbox}} and {{tl|navboxes}} templates can be used to help organize the Appropedia content pages. I made a simple example first.
{{Appropriate living manual navbox|state=uncollapsed}}


I also made a couple of high-level, topical navboxes.
== Self-healing concrete? ==
{{Solar navbox}}
Slashdot points to an article on [http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/14/tech/bioconcrete-delft-jonkers/index.html bio-concrete]; it contains bacteria which fix cracks. [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] ([[User talk:Pashley|talk]]) 10:09, 15 May 2015 (PDT)
{{Water navbox}}


Then I made {{tl|navboxes}}, that can be used to hold any number of self-contained {{tl|navbox}} (''or any other'') transcluded pages, or simply new content like this. I added the following example to the bottom of the [[Appropedia:CategoryTree]] page.
== Year of Soil & Light ==
{{Navboxes
This is a bit late as the year's almost half over, but it would be cool if we could do something for the International Year of Soil and Light (as declared by the UN). Perhaps some kind of work party or months-long effort to add relevant content. At the very least it could get a mention on the front page. --[[User:Ethan|Ethan]] ([[User talk:Ethan|talk]]) 10:03, 17 May 2015 (PDT)
  |state = uncollapsed
  |list  = {{Solar navbox}} {{Water navbox}}
}}


At this point, I'd like to know what other Appropedia folks think about this contents organization approach.  In particular, what other specific navboxes would you like me to start?  At least for now, probably the best way to let me know what you would like to see is to name a category that has an article by the same (or practically same) name. I then would try out a first cut at a navbox and put it in template space. Also think about how you might like to build up groups of navboxes that can be used independently or arranged together, like the solar and water navboxes above. For example, I'm thinking "Energy topics" would be a collection of more specific navboxes that included "Solar topics."
:Oops, I haven't been checking this page, sorry! That's a good idea. Perhaps there are existing pages that could be highlighted also? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] ([[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]) 05:28, 12 June 2015 (PDT)


I'm willing to try out just about anything, so let 'er fly. After all, this is a wiki and you can fix what I goof up! ;-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 12:33, 17 May 2011 (PDT)
== Instructables ==
}}
As J.M.Pearce mentioned, [[Instructables]] has some material that could be ported here. But there's a snag. If I understand right, Appropedia avoids BY-NC-SA material. That license appears to be the default on Instructables, so the majority of content is licensed that way. I want there to be a quick way to look up BY-SA content, but I'm stumped. CC's own search utility doesn't include Instructables. Trying to combine a reverse image search of the BY-SA image combined with the string "site:instructables.com" didn't work. Any suggestions? I don't want to waste time going through stuff we can't take. (Incidentally, I was reminded of the website's existence by finding a book of "off-grid" projects compiled by the site's founder. Is he violating his own users' licenses!?) --[[User:Ethan|Ethan]] ([[User talk:Ethan|talk]]) 21:56, 20 May 2015 (PDT)


Do you think a more obvious "[show]" link would be good? (E.g. bold, but bigger font or CAPS are possible.) If someone is scanning the page and hasn't seen one nefore, they won't realize there's something to be unlocked :). Other than that, looks good and I'll keep thinking. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 12:44, 17 May 2011 (PDT)
It turns out there is alttext on the license images. So you can enter the search string "site:instructables.com attribution sharealike -noncommercial" to get (mostly) relevant results. I created the template <nowiki>{{Instructables}}</nowiki> to provide attribution for imported material. [[TCMTECH dripper irrigation for rainbarrel]] is an example of what an imported page can look like. It might also be nice to notify the content creator.


:This appears to be the applicable code in [[MediaWiki:Common.css]] to bold the show/hide button.
Side note: There's been some discussion discussion about CC license violation [http://www.instructables.com/community/A-few-thoughts-about-copyright-and-Instructables/ 1], [http://www.instructables.com/community/Enforceability-of-CC-Non-Commercial-license/ 2] --[[User:Ethan|Ethan]] ([[User talk:Ethan|talk]]) 13:04, 21 May 2015 (PDT)
{{Navboxes
|title      = Lots of code hiding in this box
|liststyle  = padding:2px;font-size:111%;text-align:left;
|list        =


<pre>
:Hey, nice effort with the "site:instructables.com attribution sharealike -noncommercial" search.
table.collapsed tr.collapsable {
:Yeah, it's unfortunate about the incompatible licenses. What we are always able to do, regardless of license or copyright, is post a summary or paraphrase together with a link. I think that's still very useful, as it becomes information that can be found by browsing Appropedia (e.g. going through the pages in a category), even if the full version must be viewed elsewhere. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] ([[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]) 05:26, 12 June 2015 (PDT)
display: none;
}


.collapseButton {          /* 'show'/'hide' buttons created dynamically */
== Articles about individuals - need guidelines ==
    float: right;          /* by the CollapsibleTables javascript in    */
    font-weight: normal;  /* [[MediaWiki:Common.js]]are styled here    */
    text-align: right;    /* so they can be customised.                */
    width: auto;
}
.navbox .collapseButton {  /* In navboxes, the show/hide button balances */
    width: 6em;            /* the vde links from [[Template:Tnavbar]],  */
}
</pre>


Changing the labels to all caps appears to be in [[MediaWiki:Common.js]]
There were a couple of articles about individuals in mainspace, that were a bit promotional in nature. That's not fundamentally a bad thing, but it's not what Appropedia mainspace is for, I think. So, I've moved them to the [[A:userspace|userspace]] of the user that created the pages.
<pre>


/** Collapsible tables *********************************************************
We want to be clear and consistent, so my suggested guideline is that articles about people need to be notable in some way. If they meet [[wikipedia:project:Notability|Wikipedia's notability criteria]] and they're relevant to Appropedia's themes, they can be in mainspace.  
*
*  Description: Allows tables to be collapsed, showing only the header. See
*   http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Collapsible_tables.
*  Maintainers: [[en:User:R. Koot]]
*/
var autoCollapse = 2;
var collapseCaption = 'hide';
var expandCaption = 'show';
function collapseTable( tableIndex ) {
var Button = document.getElementById( 'collapseButton' + tableIndex );
var Table = document.getElementById( 'collapsibleTable' + tableIndex );
if ( !Table || !Button ) {
return false;
}
var Rows = Table.rows;
if ( Button.firstChild.data == collapseCaption ) {
for ( var i = 1; i < Rows.length; i++ ) {
Rows[i].style.display = 'none';
}
Button.firstChild.data = expandCaption;
} else {
for ( var i = 1; i < Rows.length; i++ ) {
Rows[i].style.display = Rows[0].style.display;
}
Button.firstChild.data = collapseCaption;
}
</pre>
}}
--[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 13:41, 17 May 2011 (PDT)
 
:Also keep in mind the default "state" of a navbox is "autocollapse", which means the box is "uncollapsed" when by itself on a page. It's also possible to force a box to be uncollapsed, regardless of what's on the page. The original outer box was uncollapsed.  I also changed two more of the above boxes to be uncollapsed, a totally likely way boxes like them would be seen on a page.  The more navboxes out there, the more accustomed readers will be to expecting a body below the title, regardless of the original state they see. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 19:16, 17 May 2011 (PDT)
 
::Thanks - for now, I've edited the collapseButton in [[MediaWiki:Common.css]] to "font-weight: bold". Does that look ok? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 22:12, 18 May 2011 (PDT)
 
:::That looks fine to me.  I would say it definitely helps with noticability. What might help even more would be having a navbox or two at the bottom of every article. ;-) [[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 05:33, 19 May 2011 (PDT)
 
::::A navbox or two at the bottom of every article might be a very good thing... that's where  [[Appropedia:AutoWikiBrowser|AutoWikiBrowser]] or a [[Appropedia:Bots|bot]] could be very, very handy, for semi-automated adding to each article in a category (i.e. it prompts y/n for each page). --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 13:32, 19 May 2011 (PDT)
 
:::::Yes, I made a few thousand Wikipedia AWB edits during The Great Userbox Migration. ;-)  In this case however, the ''real'' work is in making the topical navboxes in the first place. The critical task is deciding what should be in and what should not be in the box.  It's easy enough for me to start a basic box outline with title articles from a category and its subcategories. The tricky part for me is deciding the best starter topics.  None of the [[User:RichardF#High-level heirarchical classifications|main top-level navigation structures]] I've seen around here totally agree with each other. After that, my experience has been I can add the template from page to page simply by clicking the next link in the box. And that goes faster than AWB would allow me to go because of the enforced time delay between edits. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 16:56, 19 May 2011 (PDT)
 
== Participation and navigation templates ==
 
[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] has been doing some work with navboxes on various topics, which is great. This got me thinking - I'd love to see improvements in the templates we use for basic navigation and helping people to participate. See {{cl|Request participation templates}} & {{cl|Navigation templates}} (& please add other relevant templates to those categories if they've been missed). I've done some, but I'd like for others to have a go at it.
 
My idea is to have, on every category page:
* a {{tl|cat header}}, or something similar
* a very compact but clear template helping people to create a new page, perhaps merged into the cat header. That's actually a complex thing to do well - e.g. if we offer a prefilled page, it'll be different for projects, topic pages and organizations.
 
If there's any largescale cleanup to be done (removing or changing tempates on many pages) - [[User:Tahnok|Tahnok]] and I both have a bot that can help. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 12:38, 17 May 2011 (PDT)
 
:Hi Chris. Your idea about "a very compact but clear template helping people to create a new [category] page" reminds me of the  [[Wikipedia:Portal/Instructions]], "To create a new portal on the topic "Topic" using the {{[[Wikipedia:box portal skeleton]]}} template follow these steps:".
:I like the part about offering a set of structured page layout creation templates.  The part I find "incongruous" from my Wikipedia experiences is the Appropedia category pages look a lot like stylized article, portal or contents pages.  My personal preference is for category pages to be minimalist in terms of "extras."  What you're thinking about for category pages might be what I would think about as being more applicable to those other types of pages.
 
:The vast majority of my editing at Wikipedia has been around designing portals (e.g., [[Wikipedia:Portal:Cats|Cats]], [[Wikipedia:Portal:Dogs|Dogs]], [[Wikipedia:Portal:Education|Education]], [[Wikipedia:Portal:Indiana|Indiana]], [[Wikipedia:Portal:Philosophy of science|Philosophy of science]], [[Wikipedia:Portal:Psychology|Psychology]], [[Wikipedia:Portal:Science|Science]], [[Wikipedia:Portal:Sustainable development|Sustainable development]], [[Wikipedia:Portal:Religion|Religion]] and [[Wikipedia:Portal:United States|United States]]), plus the [[Wikipedia:Portal:Contents|Contents]] page layouts by [[Wikipedia:Portal:Contents/Types layout|Type]] and [[Wikipedia:Portal:Contents/Topics layout|Topic]]. I also designed the [[Kivapedia:Main Page]] tabbed layouts.
 
:I'm willing to work on a high-level contents/portal navigation system here as well.  Along those lines, my personal preference is to put category info into contents/portal pages, rather than the other way around. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 14:22, 17 May 2011 (PDT)
 
::I was thinking more of helping people to create a new page in the category page they're viewing - like {{tl|Newpageresource}} only much more compact while still being clear. But helping people to create all kinds of pages is good, and there's a lot that could be adapted from Wikipedia.
 
::Re "Appropedia category pages look a lot like stylized article, portal or contents pages." There's been a policy shift on this (from one informal policy to another) and such categories mostly should be moved very soon. Moving categories with history intact is a bit of work - I've done some and planned to do a bunch more around now, but had my laptop stolen, including that work in progress. So I'm going to check my backups for old versions (& I have a couple of old working pages ([[User:Chriswaterguy/moving category page content with history|here]] & [[User:Chriswaterguy/Wikignome/moving category page content with history - list|here]]).
 
::Make sure you check what [[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] is up to - he's done a lot of template work here. You two are our template experts. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 21:57, 18 May 2011 (PDT)
 
:::I'm all for making the category page template short and sweet - something that can be "substituted," rather than "transcluded." Sorry to hear about your laptop.  It reminds me of a few hard drives that have blown up on me over the years.  Probably the more folks who keep an eye on Teratornis (and me) the better!  ;-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 06:49, 19 May 2011 (PDT)
 
== Integrating Appropedia subsites ==
 
As a relative newcomer to Appropedia, I have to admit that I find it rather challenging to figure out even the basic scope of what's going on everywhere. My personal inclination has been to think of the foundation as the central organizer, rather than the wiki.  From that perspective, the wiki still is the primary project and face of the foundation, but that makes me more inclined to think about other things that might be going on as well.  This topic is about other ways to think about presenting the web presence of Appropedia.
 
{{User:RichardF/Contents/Subsites}}
 
The basic idea that comes to mind for me is to use "Appropedia.org" as the home page for the foundation's web presence. The wiki and other projects would be presented as subsites.  In this arrangement, all Appropedia pages would have the same header and footer to visually and conceptually tie everything together.  The page body would present the distinct content of the wiki, blog and any other major content within that frame.  Some subsites might be literal, such as the blog, while others might simply be framed views into other site pages, such as the social networking section.
 
At a relatively low overhead and redesign cost, I believe an approach to integrating all of the current and future Appropedia subsites will be of great value to branding and growing Appropedia. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 06:58, 18 May 2011 (PDT)
 
:Interesting. Most people will be using the wiki (and we want to encourage that) and I think that's a strong argument for the wiki being at appropedia.org. I expect we'll have language subsites in time, so having subsites of a wiki subsite is also a bit unwieldy.
:But we do need this kind of thinking about our structure. If we have a wiki based forum, the integration will be tighter, but we could still link it from a top row in a new skin. (We could even have a wiki based blog - we'll have to see if the extensions for that have improved, but that's a lower priority and a digression...)
:Re social networking... that happens across the wiki, and potentially in a forum and blog. How do you see it fitting into the subsite model? Social media is a part of it, and by nature that's more scattered across the web - how do we better integrate that? Having "Add this" type buttons is one way to help (and Wesley is doing something on that). Improving our [[Appropedia:Social media]] page also. Thanks. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 22:10, 18 May 2011 (PDT)
 
::Now that [[Widget:Iframe]] ''almost'' is up and running, a technically simpler approach could be to just put key subsites and related sites each in a big frame on a normal wiki page. Selected Iframe pages also could be highlighted using Main Page tabs, like at [[Kivapedia:Main Page]].
:::For the social stuff, I was thinking about what's on the [[Appropedia:Social media]] page.  Going back to the Iframe idea, "Social media" could become a portal, with each of the "Highlighted" sites on their own Iframe page, regardless if any of them (e.g., Blog, Forum) make it to a Main Page tab.
::::Well, so much for ''that'' idea.  None of the social media "big shots" allow themselves to be framed.  The only sites I could get to show up in the development Iframe were [http://globalswadeshi.ning.com/ globalswadeshi], [http://community.livejournal.com/appropedia/ livejournal], [http://www.stumbleupon.com/stumbler/nopanacea/reviews/ stumbleupon] and [http://www.delicious.com/nopanacea delicious]. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 12:32, 19 May 2011 (PDT)
 
::p.s. The wiki "Home" page really is ''not'' at "Appropedia.org" - it's at "Appropedia.org/Welcome_to_Appropedia". That's just like http://www.wikipedia.org is not the "Home" page of any of its encyclopedias. ;-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 07:16, 19 May 2011 (PDT)
 
:Other quick ways to highlight selected Iframe pages would be to just add them to the Sidebar or an announcement across the top. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 08:27, 19 May 2011 (PDT)
 
== Popular topics ==
 
[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] made this "[http://www.wordle.net/ Wordle]" based on Appropedia's 5000 most poular pages of Appropedia's most popular pages [[Image:Appropedia wordle.png|thumb|upright=2|right|"[http://www.wordle.net/ Wordle]" based ]]. I find it interesting, and I think it's useful for showing where we have content, and where we're lacking, or where the info might be poorly linked and getting little traffic.
 
This makes me think about the idea of something like a "category cloud" - looking like this, based on the number of articles in each category, and with each category title clickable. I think that would be both useful and engaging, and it's probably not hard to install the extension. (Wordle would still be interesting to play with, though, as it can use different inputs.)
 
What do others think about a category cloud?  --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 21:31, 18 May 2011 (PDT)
 
:Not surprisingly, I ''like'' the basic idea.  I had an '''''article''''' cloud at Kivapedia posted on the home page until  spammers took over the wiki. Here's the code I used.
 
<pre>
<center>
{{#dpl:namespace=
  |notcategory=Main Page portal
  |nottitlematch=%/%
  |addpagecounter=true
  |mode=userformat
  |listseparators=,<font size="%COUNTFS%">[[%PAGE%|%TITLE%]]</font>,
  |inlinetext=  • 
}}
</center>
</pre>
 
One concern I have is about the [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Dynamic_Page_List MediaWiki Extension:DynamicPageList (third-party) warning]:
{| Class="wikitable" style="background:#FFE6F2"
|-
| '''WARNING:''' the code or configuration described here poses a '''major security risk.'''
'''Problem:'''
 
* Allows users to inject arbitrary html (including javascript) into pages. This could allow an attacker to steal other people's accounts, or redirect users to another site (etc. See XSS)
* Doesn't adequately check the dplcache parameter. This allows user to overwrite certain files in the filesystem (if they end in .txt), and possibly display the contents of certain files. In the worst case, if apache is configured to support scripting languages using the AddHandler directive, this allows arbitrary code to be executed on the server.
|}
 
I don't know all the technical details involved with all the possible DPL extensions, but consulting with a MediaWiki expert first certainly sounds to be in order. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 06:00, 19 May 2011 (PDT)
 
:I also should point out the particular wordle shown here is ''not'' a weighted representation of the most viewed articles. If that were the case, the wordle would be a ''huge'' representation of the two or so most viewed articles - [[Welcome to Appropedia]] and [[Solar Charged Lawnmower]]. Since that really didn't seem to be the story Appropedia wanted to tell, what I did was enter the titles of the 5,000 most popular articles with no weightings for page views. An example of a weighted wiki wordle by article title is at [[Wikipedia:Vital articles#External links]]. So, what the wordle here basically tells me is the popularity of article topics to ''editors'', because they are the ones creating the titles.  I thought I should clear that up. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 06:22, 19 May 2011 (PDT)
 
Okay, now I see that [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Tagcloud Mediawiki:Category:Tag cloud extensions] shows lots more possibilities than the evil extension I used in the past. With the security question out of the way, that gets me back to the "Category" vs. "Article" cloud question.  It looks to me that both possibilities still are there. My preference still would be to go with articles in the cloud because that's what an article-based wiki is about. Maybe the [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Semantic_Result_Formats/tagcloud_format SRF tagcloud] would do the trick. 
 
Wikipedia has tools for projects that can display article lists by quality, importance ''and'' popularity. Here are two U.S.A. Project examples: [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:WikiProject United States/Assessment#Quality and importance tables|Quality and importance tables]] and [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:WikiProject United States/Popular pages|Popular pages]].
 
A start of something along those lines that could be done here with article clouds would be to use [[:Category:Highlighted content]] and [[:Category:Topics]] as the ''only'' sources of articles for the cloud.  That cloud would represent a combined high level of quality, importance and popularity at Appropedia.  It also would be an interesting source of conversations for what articles ''should'' be in those two categories that are seeding the cloud. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 09:48, 19 May 2011 (PDT)
 
I made a quick wordle - [http://www.wordle.net/show/wrdl/3652070/Appropedia_Cats Appropedia Cats] - based on the 357 categories with 10 or more members, using the number of members to weight the size of each category, e.g., "Stubs:651" and "Solar energy:10".  A MediaWiki category cloud would look something like this. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 18:47, 19 May 2011 (PDT)
 
== Pages to highlight? ==
 
Would be great to have some new pages to highlight on the from page in coming weeks. What are your favorite pages that are neat, complete, and with a good image?
 
See [[Appropedia:Highlighted Projects]] for pages to date. Although that page and template are for projects, we could highlight any good page, as long as it includes a decent image. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 13:51, 19 May 2011 (PDT)
 
== Vital articles – importance, quality and popularity ==
 
Here’s an idea.  Start a vital articles project to help organize and communicate what’s important, good and popular about Appropedia articles.  It can draw many of its approaches and tools from the [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Vital articles]] project. The project here then can be used to manage the basic conceptual framework for how the encyclopedic content of the wiki is organized, developed and presented to the readers.
 
The basic scope of the project would be for members to rate articles in terms of their overall encyclopedic importance and quality, monitor their popularity, and identify high-impact next steps for improving the Appropedia reading experience.
 
Drawing from Wikipedia, article importance can be rated as top, high, medium or low.  Quality ratings can be featured, A, good, B, C, start or stub.  Popularity is a ranking based on the number of page views for a given time periohttp://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=Appropedia_talk:Village_pump&action=edit&section=138d.  These three attributes of the collection of articles then can form the basis for making decisions about article classification and navigation systems, as well as focusing article development and improvement drives.
 
One key departure from the Wikipedia Way I would want to weigh in on is to use the importance ratings as the primary organizer for presenting content, rather than the quality-featured content method.  Quality still is important, but it should be #2 on the priority list.  “First, do the right things.  Then, do the right things well.”  For example, the top-level importance articles can form the basis for ''all'' of the top-level article organization and navigation structures – Sidebar, CategoryTree and Topics category.  All the other articles then can flow from this common foundation. 
 
In addition, subprojects can be formed around each of the top-level importance articles.  In terms of the three ratings attributes, quality always remains the same, importance is reassessed at each level, and popularity rankings are based on the same number of page views but only for the articles included.
 
So, that’s the basics.  What do you think? --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 07:55, 20 May 2011 (PDT)
 
:Good thoughts. We definitely want some way of focusing on certain content. Are you interested in fleshing it out some more - e.g. starting to identify important content? Existing pages and needed pages? [[Six ways to die]] is one framework to keep in mind. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 10:26, 23 May 2011 (PDT)
 
::As it turns out, I'm not much of an Appropedia content expert, but I am a self-proclaimed expert in making sense of content - I'm a lot better at describing "what is" than deciding "what should be." In terms of deciding what should be the top-importance topics/articles, I would start by looking at what's already in the Sidebar, CategoryTree and Topics category.  After combining those listings, I would get a consensus on what topics are top-importance and what are high- or lower importance.  Here's a table that combines those topics. 
 
{| class="wikitable" style="border:#A3BFA3; background:#F5FFF5"
|+ [[Appropedia talk:Village pump#Vital articles – importance, quality and popularity|Vital articles, top-importance candidates]]
|-
! style="background:#CEF2CE" | [[MediaWiki:Sidebar|Sidebar]] || style="background:#CEF2CE" |[[Appropedia:CategoryTree|CategoryTree]] || style="background:#CEF2CE" | [[:Category:Topics|Topics category]] || style="background:#CEF2CE" | Combined topics
|- valign="top"
|
* [[Portal:Appropriate technology|Appropriate tech]]
* [[Portal:Green living|Green living]]
* [[:Category:Food and agriculture|Food / Agriculture]]
* [[:Category:Construction and materials|Construction]]
* [[:Category:Energy|Energy]]
* [[:Category:Health and safety|Health / Safety]]
* [[:Category:Transport|Transport]]
* [[:Category:Water|Water]]
* [[:Category:Knowledge|Knowledge]]
* [[:Category:Projects|Projects]]
* [[:Category:Organizations|Organizations]]
||
<categorytree depth="0">Built environment</categorytree>
<categorytree depth="0">Business</categorytree>
<categorytree depth="0">Culture and community</categorytree>
<categorytree depth="0">Design</categorytree>
<categorytree depth="0">Energy</categorytree>
<categorytree depth="0">Food and agriculture</categorytree>
<categorytree depth="0">Health and safety</categorytree>
<categorytree depth="0">International development</categorytree>
<categorytree depth="0">Knowledge</categorytree>
<categorytree depth="0">Locations</categorytree>
<categorytree depth="0">Projects</categorytree>
<categorytree depth="0">Taking action</categorytree>
<categorytree depth="0">Transport</categorytree>
<categorytree depth="0">Water</categorytree>
||
<categorytree depth="1">Topics</categorytree>
||
* [[Portal:Appropriate technology|Appropriate tech portal]]
<categorytree depth="0">Appropriate technology</categorytree>
* [[Portal:Green living|Green living portal]]
<categorytree depth="0">Green living</categorytree>
<categorytree depth="0">Built environment</categorytree>
<categorytree depth="0">Business</categorytree>
<categorytree depth="0">Communication</categorytree>
<categorytree depth="0">Construction</categorytree>
<categorytree depth="0">Culture and community</categorytree>
<categorytree depth="0">Design</categorytree>
<categorytree depth="0">Energy</categorytree>
<categorytree depth="0">Environment</categorytree>
<categorytree depth="0">Food and agriculture</categorytree>
<categorytree depth="0">Fundamental human needs</categorytree>
<categorytree depth="0">Health and safety</categorytree>
<categorytree depth="0">International development</categorytree>
<categorytree depth="0">Knowledge</categorytree>
<categorytree depth="0">Living</categorytree>
<categorytree depth="0">Locations</categorytree>
<categorytree depth="0">Organizations</categorytree>
<categorytree depth="0">Projects</categorytree>
<categorytree depth="0">Taking action</categorytree>
<categorytree depth="0">Transport</categorytree>
<categorytree depth="0">Water</categorytree>
|}
 
How would you like to go about building consensus on at least a first draft of the top-importance articles list? --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 12:21, 23 May 2011 (PDT)
 
[[File:Sustainable development and hierarchy of needs.png|thumb|upright=2.0|[[Sustainable development|Sustainable tools]] to meet [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs fundamental human needs] ]]
:One type of basic criterion for deciding what should be the top-importance articles would be to operationalize the Appropedia mission into a conceptual framework that can be used to structure the importance of articles. The schematic here is my attempt to do that. In effect, I see Appropedia as a resource about "sustainable tools to meet fundamental human needs."  I used a sustainable development three-domain model for the tools. All the projects here seem to be about sustainable tools. I used Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs for, uh, needs.  Six ways to die nicely fits in the needs hierarchy. In this approach, all of the top-importance articles would represent fundamental elements of this framwework.  Any framework that better represents Appropedia's mission would work even better. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 13:19, 23 May 2011 (PDT)
 
Two navboxes I started, {{tl|Solar navbox}} and {{tl|Water navbox}}, are another early attempt to start organizing articles around tools and needs. The Sun and water clearly qualify as needs at the base of the pyramid. Sections within each navbox take a first go at grouping sustainable tools by topic. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 13:40, 23 May 2011 (PDT)
 
:I'm surprised the "non-portable" copy of [[wikipedia:Template:Navbox]] you copied over the portable but insufficiently featured {{Tl|Navbox}} seems to be working here. See my comments at:
:* [[Template talk:Navbox#Child navboxes and groups]]
:If I get motivated I might try to figure out how the non-portable template code can work here given that I thought we were not running HTML Tidy. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 14:02, 25 May 2011 (PDT)
 
::Yes, I was surprised too. I read your comments at template talk too.  The problems I was having were related to the nested features of navbox, with groups and navboxes.  The bad code looked like it was related to the nested table start code "{|" not rendering properly.  I tested the full version in my sandbox area before I moved it over.  So far, I haven't noticed any other issues, but I'll keep an eye out.
 
::So, what do you think of the vital articles project idea? :-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 16:23, 25 May 2011 (PDT)
 
== Mobile Skin ==
 
I'm trying to get to work on a mobile skin, but I am hoping to get some input from members of Appropedia as to what they would want / not want in a skin. I've created a page [[User:Tahnok/mobile skin|listing page elements currently on Appropedia]] and my take on what I think should be kept / not kept. Feel free to disagree. --[[User:Tahnok|Tahnok]] 12:52, 20 May 2011 (PDT)
:All right, I'm currently working on the skinning the edit page and I'm wondering about the necessity of keeping all of the warnings. I would prefer to make them invisible but there may be legal reasons why I shouldn't do that. Thoughts anyone? --[[User:Tahnok|Tahnok]] 12:57, 30 May 2011 (PDT)
::Good points - how about something super brief, with a "more" link to show/expand the warning text? For legal reasons (and because so many people don't pay attention to copyright) I wouldn't want to hide the warnings altogether. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 12:17, 1 June 2011 (PDT)
 
== A permanent topical navigation bar at [[MediaWiki:Sitenotice|Sitenotice]] ==
 
Another way to highlight the "top importance" [[Appropedia talk:Village pump#Vital articles – importance, quality and popularity|vital articles]] at Appropedia would be to include their topics in a permanent navigation bar on the [[MediaWiki:Sitenotice|Sitenotice]] page.  This would make them available on every page and distinguish them from all the other links in the Sidebar.  A simple example is shown below.
----
<center><span style="font-size:85%">[[Portal:Appropriate technology|Appropriate technology]]{{·}} [[Portal:Green living|Green living]]{{·}} [[:Category:Food and agriculture|Food & Agriculture]]{{·}} [[:Category:Construction and materials|Construction]]{{·}} [[:Category:Energy|Energy]]{{·}} [[:Category:Health and safety|Health & Safety]]{{·}} [[:Category:Transport|Transport]]{{·}} [[:Category:Water|Water]]</span>
<span style="font-size:85%"><br>Check out some of the great [[:Category:Projects|'''projects''']] on Appropedia - and [[Help:Creating a page|'''share yours''']]!</span></center>
----
As can be seen from this example, adding the navbar doesn't stop the page from being used for announcements as well. A change I would make from what's linked now is I would make all the links to portals, not categories. Nice things about using Sitenotice for the navbar are that it's prime real estate so people will pay attention to it and likely click the links, it's already there and it's easy to change. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 20:44, 21 May 2011 (PDT)
 
:Interesting - giving it a test drive now :). I don't know if the horizontal lines above and below were meant to be included, but it felt like there were enough lines around the top already. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 07:48, 23 May 2011 (PDT)
 
::Thanks! Obviously, I like the basic idea.  The horizontal lines were just to set off the two navbar text lines from the rest of this discusion. They weren't meant to be included in the Sitenotice page. Hopefully, that navbar can help draw focus to the related portals development and vital articles project. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 08:09, 23 May 2011 (PDT)
 
== Fixing css ==
 
So I noticed that there are a couple of errors in the CSS for appropedia. For example there's no padding on navigation, topics & areas and appropedia. Also the toolbox has a slightly different style from navigation. I assume the current blue for links in the side bar is preferred over the grey of the toolbox so I went with that. You can see the style in action on the [http://whatissustainability.org dev blog] and the actual style sheet is at http://whatissustainability.org/MediaWiki:Monobook.css . Can one of the admins port the page over? --[[User:Tahnok|Tahnok]] 14:32, 31 May 2011 (PDT
:After talking to Chris I have modified the css slightly so that the toolbox remaind a different colour. --[[User:Tahnok|Tahnok]] 12:10, 7 June 2011 (PDT)
 
== Interwiki links to ported Wikipedia content ==
 
Whenever content is ported from Wikipedia, we can expect two things about the wikilinks. First, most of the wikilinks there will lead to articles.  Second, a number of links here will be red.  Rather than give up convenient access to the Wikipedia articles and leave the links red here for an unknown amount of time, I have the following suggestions:
* add an interwiki link to "all" links from the Wikipedia content by using the {{tl|w}} in-line template;
* remove any red links here in the body of an article when the paired interwiki {{tl|w}} link is present; and
* change the "See also" section to "See also, and suggested pages to create" such as at [[ Appropriate technology#See also, and suggested pages to create]] to hold any red links that definitely are new article candidates.
 
For example, the two main articles, [[Appropriate technology]] and [[Green living]] have significant amounts of their content ported from Wikipedia. They also have virtually all of their wikilinks paired with the original {{tl|w}} interwiki links.  At the time of this posting, [[Appropriate technology]] still has most of its original red links, while [[Green living]] has the red links removed.
 
If there is support to do this, I'll remove the red links from the [[Appropriate technology]] article.  In addition, since [[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] showed me how to do a [[User talk:RichardF#fancy search and replace|fancy search and replace]] for quickly adding the {{tl|w}} interwiki links to an article, I'm willing to help do this for other articles too.  Just let me know if this is an approach you all want to implement. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 19:52, 31 May 2011 (PDT)
 
I added a third suggestion above for using a "See also, and suggested pages to create" section to explicitly identify articles for creation here. That way, an article is not peppered with red links, and a location for generating article creation to-do lists is readily available. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 10:18, 1 June 2011 (PDT)
 
:Quick thought re adding {{tl|w}} links - I wonder if running [[A:AutoWikiBrowser]] would let you add or skip them on a link-by-basis? (It's a Windows program, and I haven't managed to get it running in Linux yet - no one has used it on Appropedia yet, AFAIK.) Or use a text editor with decent regex for search and replace? (E.g. Geany - but might be tricky to set up in Windows... what OS do you use?)
 
:Listing suggested pages to create at the bottom of the article is good. A ''few'' redlinks within an article probably is a good thing. (We could customize the default text at [[MediaWiki:Newarticletext]], though, so that people clicking on a redlink for the first time get a bit of an explanation.) --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 12:34, 1 June 2011 (PDT)
 
::I've used AWB at Wikipedia. It's fine for making judgments find-by-find, but tedious if you already know you want to do a global replace all finds.  In the case of the wonderful {{tl|w}}, I'm thinking it's much more efficient to use a global regex replace all and then go back and read the article for customized changes.  That's what I did for the [[Appropriate technology]] article.
 
::I still think the burden of being red should be on the creating editor to commit to starting that article ''real soon now'' if it stays inline.  Otherwise, it should be just at the "suggested pages to cerate" section. :-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 13:10, 1 June 2011 (PDT)
 
:::Cool - if that way works for you, then very good. I'll check out your new pages. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 02:05, 3 June 2011 (PDT)
 
::::Okay, I'm going to start removing the inline red links at [[Appropriate technology]] when they have a paired {{tl|w}} interwiki link with them.  On a case-by-case basis, they can be added back inline if the corresponding Appropedia article is about to be created. If an article is desired there but it likely won't be created in the near future, a red link for it can be created at [[Appropriate technology#See also, and suggested pages to create]]. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 05:58, 3 June 2011 (PDT)
:::::Appropedia has the difficult situation that many of our articles mention or allude to a huge foundation of encyclopedic content, but it would take thousands of person-hours of skilled labor to duplicate the corresponding thousands of articles from Wikipedia. This is one of many reasons why [[Making a successful new wiki is hard]]. Red links can be a useful tool for stimulating other people to develop new articles, but this is only working if the residence time of a red link is fairly low (i.e., it doesn't stay red for long). If red links are piling up and hanging around for years to fester, then they are not a useful tool but merely a depressing eyesore. When an article has dozens and dozens of red links, it screams "neglect". I don't think red links are a particularly good example of [[wikipedia:Stigmergy|Stigmergy]] (i.e., "the stimulation of workers by the results they have achieved"), because a red link is not substantial enough to constitute a stimulating "result". That is, the red link doesn't contain enough existing structure to inspire someone else to extend it. It's not much better than leaving dirty dishes around the house in hopes that someone else in the house will wash them. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 15:39, 5 June 2011 (PDT)
 
I found 26 articles that used {{tl|Attrib wikipedia}}. I started adding the {{tl|w}} inline interwiki links and removing the corresponding red links.  I also added two templates - {{tl|Y}} {{Y}} & {{tl|N}} {{N}} - that can come in handy for keeping track of various to-do lists, like in the example below. This example also shows how {{tl|Multicol}}, {{tl|Multicol-break}} and {{tl|Multicol-end}} can be used to format text columns.
{{User:RichardF/Contents/Interwiki links}}
--[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 18:30, 5 June 2011 (PDT)
 
== Task status templates ==
 
I added a few more task status templates to the available collection.
 
{{multicol}}
*{{Tl|Done}} — {{done}}
*{{Tl|Doing}} — {{Doing}}
*{{tl|Isdoing}} — {{Isdoing|Example}}
 
*{{tl|Check mark}} — {{Check mark}}
*{{tl|Tick}} — {{Tick}}
*{{tl|Y}} — {{Y}}
{{multicol-break}}
*{{Tl|Not done}} — {{Not done}}
*{{tl|X mark big}} — {{X mark big}}
*{{tl|Cross}} — {{Cross}}
*{{tl|N}} — {{N}}
{{multicol-break}}
*{{tl|?}} — {{?}}
{{multicol-end}}
--[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 10:31, 6 June 2011 (PDT)
 
== Redlinks and {{tl|w}} links ==
 
Great to see this activity, described [[#Interwiki links to ported Wikipedia content|above]]. Some suggestions:
 
'''{{tl|w}} links''':I made this template seeing that it would be useful for cases where there was no Appropedia article (either because it was outside our scope, or it just hadn't been created yet) or the Appropedia article was still a stub, and the reader was likely to want more information than was offered there. To my thinking (and this is all up for debate, of course):
* Blue links (existing Appropedia articles) ''usually'' shouldn't have a {{tl|w}} link. The Wikipedia page can be linked from the article itself - even if it's a stub, it will hopefully be a useful stub, and should have interwiki links. The editor should use their discretion as to whether it's needed.
* Large numbers of W links with few local links seems odd, as if the page is an index to Wikipedia articles on the subject.
* Where a redlink is justified (see below) the {{tl|w}} link makes it more bearable.
* Avoid adding the W links to the "See also" sections - better to have a separate section. (I like to have an "Interwiki links" section - & we can use the [[Green Development Wikis Search]] if we want to look more widely for links.)
 
'''Redlinks''': Agreed that dozens of redlinks looks messy. However, removing all or almost all redlinks seems un-wiki-like, since redlinks are one of the key features of a wiki. The question is how to get more attention onto turning red links into articles.
* Redlinks to fairly basic topics within Appropedia's scope, that really should have an Appropedia article, should remain. Note that each redlink counts towards the topic's ranking on [[Special:WantedPages]].
* To turn them into blue links, there will be a few strategies we can use. One is to recruit more volunteers, interns and service learning classes and suggest [[Special:WantedPages]] as a great place to start. (Recruiting volunteers, interns and service learning classes deserves a separate discussion topic, but I've been getting interesting bites to [http://www.youtern.com/candidate/job_search/quick/results our first ad on YouTern.com]; EWB Australia is sending some tech interns our way, and we can explore expanding this program and others like it to include content internships.)
 
For [[Appropriate technology]], a few of those redlinks would disappear if I do an import of the entire [[wikipedia:Category:Appropriate technology]]. I created a number of those articles, and I'd be happy to see them here, and they're a very good fit here. (I'll want my bot running to do some of the followup editing, so I'll wait till I've got my bot working on my new computer.) That might be a model for other imports from Wikipedia - import a selection of articles from the associated category at the same time. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 11:08, 6 June 2011 (PDT)
 
:If I understand you correctly, your preference is for me to revert all of the redlink and {{tl|w}} changes I made, and don't do that anymore.  Is that correct?  If that's the case, then I want to revert those article changes before many more edits occur. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 12:59, 6 June 2011 (PDT)
 
::Not all of them - I'm just suggesting to be more selective. The w links are often a good addition, and a lot of the redlinks should be removed if adapting a Wikipedia article - I think that's a good approach. I realize that what I'm suggesting makes it more work - but of course it doesn't have to be perfect, and it's always possible to go back and edit. Those are my thoughts - I'm also interested in what you and others think.
 
::I did [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=Ingredients_of_a_successful_commons&diff=173117&oldid=172968 one revert] where it was just w links on existing article links, but most wouldn't be as simple clear cut. Thanks. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 13:51, 6 June 2011 (PDT)
 
:::Oops - I see that you made some other changes there, so I replaced one edit... was also going to replace one of the w links, which would have been fine, but decided to create the [[Attribution]] stub rather than just linking to the Wikipedia stub. This is what I mean about it being complicated. But it's all good - we're making progress. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 14:05, 6 June 2011 (PDT)
 
::::Well, if it's not cut-and-dried, I already made the edits that made the most sense to me. What I'm going to do, then, is leave my edits as is.  If someone wants me to revert any particular article I'll do that on request.  I'll also leave the remaining articles to others to decide how they want to interwikilink them. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 17:04, 6 June 2011 (PDT)
 
:::::I'll keep making some changes to the w links, and I hope we can do some more work with the text in the articles as well. Some original content and remixing will help to avoid the search engines deciding it's just a copy of Wikipedia. (Not sure how serious that is... but still, it's good to have our own versions.) This is a good (small) number of articles to work with for now. Thanks again --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 11:42, 12 June 2011 (PDT)
 
== Fundamental category - faceted subcategories proposal ==
 
This is a proposal to rearrange the Appropedia [[:Category:Fundamental|Fundamental category]] to be more in line with [http://sustainabilityscience.org/category.html The Forum on Science and Innovation for Sustainable Development framework] Core Themes and Content Items. This framework is very much in line with Appropedia. A major benefit of updating the Appropedia category system to be more in line with this framework is that a wealth of information related to sustainable development already has been organized along these lines.  The better Appropedia's category system matches up with this framework, the easier it will be for Appropedia readers and contributors to see the connections among these resources.
 
The SISD framework is an example of a faceted classification{{w|faceted classification}} system - multiple ways to think about and find content.  This is the way just about every wiki category system works. The SISD core theme facets are Critical Sectors, Development Goals, Geographic Regions, Research Themes, and Geographic Scale. A number of content item facets also are included, like Projects, Programs and Solutions. Any article can be coded by any of the facets.
 
The following table shows how the Appropedia Fundamental category could be rearranged to be more in line with the SISD framework Core Themes and Content Items. All fundamental subcategories and all [[:Category:Topics|Topics]] subcategories are included in this table.  The revised Fundamental category would look as follows, with all other subcategories moved elsewhere.
{|
|- valign="top"
| width="33%" |
* [[:Category:Fundamental|Fundamental]]
** Sustainability themes (new)
** [[:Category:Topics|Critical sectors]] (Topics renamed and split)
** [[:Category:Fundamental human needs|Fundamental human needs]]
** [[:Category:Places|Places]]
** [[:Category:Taking action|Taking action]]
||
This proposal includes a relatively small amount of changes to individual categories at the top levels. Most of the changes simply involve rearranging the parent and child relationships among categories. A few new categories also would be created.  The biggest changes would be to the [[:category:Topics|Topics]] category. First, the category would be simplified by removing some of the subcategories.  Second, its name would be changed to something like Critical sectors.
|}
{{User:RichardF/Contents/Fundamental category}}
 
If you're interested in updating Appropedia's encyclopedic classifications system, I'm all for it and would be happy to help.  --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 09:53, 10 June 2011 (PDT)
 
The following table shows how [http://www.appropedia.org/Special:MostLinkedCategories the 100 most linked-to article categories] can be arranged by the proposed fundamental category structure.  Each category is listed only once, although many of them actually go with more than one of the fundamental categories.  That's what a faceted category system is all about.
 
{{User:RichardF/Contents/Top 100 cats}}
--[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 02:24, 12 June 2011 (PDT)
 
I like this idea as well it puts Appropedia more in line with the mainstream sustainability lit and make things easier to find. The easier the better. The critical mass of content is not too far away now and we want a strong structure to input the new info. --[[User:J.M.Pearce|Joshua]] 05:39, 12 June 2011 (PDT)
 
:Thanks RichardF. Agreed that SISD's framework is good, and worth largely adopting, though our needs will be slightly different. E.g. "Topics" is a clear catch-all for topics - i.e. subject areas. The suggested replacement, "Critical sectors," seems to imply it's more limited, like there should be a "non-critical sectors" category ;-). That might work better for SISD than for us - but maybe I haven't grasped the terminology.
 
:I think there's a lot of good stuff in here, but I'm going to want to keep looking over this and figuring out the specific changes and how they compare to the current structure.
 
:I'd be comfortable with suggestions for category merges, splits, renames, and deletions being dealt with in small batches -  one or two or three at a time. Where categories are linked somehow (e.g. "Food production" and "Agriculture"), we can consider them together. How does that sound? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 11:34, 12 June 2011 (PDT)
 
Perhaps the best next step is to start by considering the root category of Appropedia, [[:Category:Categories|Categories]] in the context of the Wikipedia root category, [[wikipedia:Category:Contents|Contents]].  Appropedia's root category has two paths - [[:Category:Appropedia|Appropedia]] and [[:Category:Fundamental|Fundamental]]. Wikipedia's root category has three main types of paths, with several categories of each type - encyclopaedic content, navigational content and content maintenance and help.  The specifics are shown below.
 
{| style="background: transparent;" width=100%
| valign=top width=33% |
;Encyclopaedic content
;Featured content
;Articles
;Glossaries
;Lists
;Timelines
| valign=top width=33% |
 
;Navigational content
;Books
;Categories
;Indexes
;Outlines
;Portals
| valign=top width=33% |
 
;Content maintenance and help
;Help
;WikiProjects
;Wikipedia administration
;Wikipedians
|}
 
The "fundamental" categories on the two wikis are different. Wikipedia's is about basic types of existence.  Appropedia's is about various kinds of articles with no unifying construct.  The "topics" also are different. Wikipedia's are comprehensive. Appropedia's are related to aspects of sustainability and sustainable development.
 
[[wikipedia:Portal:Contents|Wikipedia's contents portals]], which I helped design, use two broad facets - topic and type of page. That's relatively straightforward compared to the number of facets used here.  That's why the SISD framework looks more complex, even though it covers a narrower range of topics.
 
The key for the encyclopedic categories is to pick a comprehensive conceptual framework and stick with it. Wikipedia shoots for all noteworthy knowledge. Appropedia shoots for some subset of that in more depth and beyond an encyclopedic style.  Since every article is about some sort of topic, that category doesn't seem to be particularly useful to me here.  If "Critical sectors" doesn't cut it, then maybe something like "Resources" comes closer.  The point is to name the pie, find its edges, then start slicing it up and serving it out, preferably with some scoops of tasty ice cream here and there to jazz things up!  ;) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 14:44, 12 June 2011 (PDT)
 
:I'm a bit confused - it might help to explain what exact changes you're proposing - what gets moved, to where? Are there merges or splits?
 
:The rename of {{cl|Topics}} to something something else isn't a structural change, though we can certainly talk about it here. "Topics" still seems like the clearest name. Re "Since every article is about some sort of topic, that category doesn't seem to be particularly useful to me here." - Yes, every page belongs somewhere in the Topics category tree, but if it's not a topical article (e.g. it's a project or design) then it also belongs in one of those other categories. Does that make sense? Thanks
 
I made specific suggestions for changes and I didn't see a lot of support for it. So I stepped back with a process suggestion at a higher level.  Here are some bulleted suggestions than can be fleshed out as/if they're supported and implemented.
* Have three "types" of subcategories from the root category:
** Encyclopedic content
** Navigational content
** Content maintenance and help
:If you want to keep the current top structure, I would do it like this.
:* Categories
:** Fundamental
:*** Encyclopedic content
:*** Navigational content
:** Appropedia
* Outline a comprehensive conceptual framework for the encyclopedic content based on the principles of sustainability and sustainable development. The SISD framework seems like a good start to me.
** Outline the scope of the "topics" category.
*** One approach would be to go comprehensive, like at Wikipedia.  The [[wikipedia:Portal:Contents|Contents navigation system]] I worked on there has twelve broad topics: [[wikipedia:Portal:Contents/Reference|Reference]] · [[wikipedia:Portal:Contents/Culture|Culture]] · [[wikipedia:Portal:Contents/Geography|Geography]] · [[wikipedia:Portal:Contents/Health|Health]] · [[wikipedia:Portal:Contents/History|History]] · [[wikipedia:Portal:Contents/Mathematics|Mathematics]] · [[wikipedia:Portal:Contents/Nature|Nature]] · [[wikipedia:Portal:Contents/People|People]] · [[wikipedia:Portal:Contents/Philosophy|Philosophy]] · [[wikipedia:Portal:Contents/Religion|Religion]] · [[wikipedia:Portal:Contents/Society|Society]] · [[wikipedia:Portal:Contents/Technology|Technology]]
*** The other basic approach would be to go green - pick the high-level sustainability / sustainable development topics related to the environmental, social and economic domains typically discussed in that literature as resources, sectors, themes, needs, and so on.
*Start aligning all of the Appropedia classification and navigational structures along these basic outlines, such as the:
** Sidebar
** Top navbar
** Categorytree
** The Categories system
** Vital articles importance rating system
How's that?  :-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 13:59, 15 June 2011 (PDT)
 
== Google Chrome translation bar ==
 
When I come across an Appropedia bar in Spanish, my [http://www.google.com/support/chrome/bin/answer.py?answer=173424&hl=en-US Google Chrome translation bar] pops up and translates it a few seconds later. Here's the list of available languages.
{{Multicol}}
* Afrikaans
* Albanian
* Amharic
* Arabic
* Armenian
* Azerbaijani
* Basque
* Belarusian
* Bengali
* Bihari
* Bosnian
* Breton
* Bulgarian
* Catalan
* Chinese
* Chinese (Simplified Han)
* Chinese (Traditional Han)
* Corsican
* Croatian
* Czech
* Danish
* Dutch
* English
* English (Australia)
* English (Canada)
* English (New Zealand)
* English (South Africa)
* English (United Kingdom)
* English (United States)
* Esperanto
* Estonian
* Faroese
* Filipino
{{Multicol-break}}
* Finnish
* French
* French (Canada)
* French (France)
* French (Switzerland)
* Galician
* Georgian
* German
* German (Austria)
* German (Germany)
* German (Switzerland)
* Greek
* Guarani
* Gujarati
* Hausa
* Hawaiian
* Hebrew
* Hindi
* Hungarian
* Icelandic
* Indonesian
* Interlingua
* Irish
* Italian
* Italian (Italy)
* Italian (Switzerland)
* Japanese
* Javanese
* Kannada
* Kazakh
* Khmer
* Kirghiz
* Korean
{{Multicol-break}}
* Kurdish
* Lao
* Latin
* Latvian
* Lingala
* Lithuanian
* Macedonian
* Malay
* Malayalam
* Maltese
* Marathi
* Moldavian
* Mongolian
* Nepali
* Norwegian
* Norwegian Bokm
* Norwegian Nynorsk
* Occitan
* Oriya
* Oromo
* Pashto
* Persian
* Polish
* Portuguese
* Portuguese (Brazil)
* Portuguese (Portugal)
* Punjabi
* Quechua
* Romanian
* Romansh
* Russian
* Scottish Gaelic
* Serbian
{{Multicol-break}}
* Serbo-Croatian
* Shona
* Sindhi
* Sinhala
* Slovak
* Slovenian
* Somali
* Southern Sotho
* Spanish
* Spanish (Latin America)
* Sundanese
* Swahili
* Swedish
* Tajik
* Tamil
* Tatar
* Telugu
* Thai
* Tigrinya
* Tonga
* Turkish
* Turkmen
* Twi
* Uighur
* Ukrainian
* Urdu
* Uzbek
* Vietnamese
* Welsh
* Western Frisian
* Xhosa
* Yiddish
* Yoruba
* Zulu
{{Multicol-end}}
Would this come in handy for any translation projects here?  --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 17:29, 11 June 2011 (PDT)
 
:I'd like to get a Google Translate option, with menu, put into the skin of the wiki. I've seen this done on a couple of other wikis.
 
:This tool (as an extension, or bookmarklet, or just copy-pasting) could be useful as a first pass at translation, in some languages. I think we need to canvas some universities' language departments and recruit some classes and interns - then we can lend a hand in choosing translation tools, if needed. Anyone interested in helping to recruit? :-) --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 10:59, 12 June 2011 (PDT)
 
::Just for closure sake... this has been implemented and working well (for a few months or so now). Thanks! --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] 15:27, 10 January 2012 (PST)
 
== Sidebar ==
 
I've edited the left-hand [[MediaWiki:Sidebar|sidebar]] ([http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=MediaWiki%3ASidebar&action=historysubmit&diff=174198&oldid=166839 diff]), changing some of the categories to portals, arranging them in alphabetical order, and putting the category tree at the end.
 
Some of the categories suck, and some of them are missing. Is someone interested in making new portals? It's not hard, but I'd love to get someone else's take on it. Copy the source of one of the newer style templates - e.g. [[Portal:Green living]] or [[Portal:Appropriate technology]] and modify according to the new topic. And remember it's a wiki, so just taking one or two steps is also good. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 11:22, 15 June 2011 (PDT)
 
:I've done quite a lot of work on [[:wikipedia:User:RichardF|portal design]] and [[kivapedia:Main Page|wiki design]]. I'm willing to help out with portals here too.  One of the overall design issues I see here is an ambiguous distinction among article, portal and category pages.  I go for articles strong on narrative and media, categories strong on conceptual classifications with minimalist additions to the page, and portals as comprehensive entry points to major topics that showcase the best of what the wiki has to offer.
 
:From that perspective, I see the overall portal design here as a bit weak.  My impression is that's in large part to a relatively small amount of content and an incomplete conceptual framework for the content and wiki administration category system. It also seems those circumstances are on the threshold of stepping up a notch or two.
 
:Before adding too many more portals using the current design, I would suggest a few other things happen first.
:* Update the top-level category system to whatever comes from the recent discussions about it.
:* Set up a number of portal background structures from Wikipedia that allow for consistent design styles and automated rotations of selected content.
:* Expand the portal layout design elements to include all of the top-level content and administration features of the updated category system.
:I have experience in these areas and I'm willing to help set up the basic infrastructure and designs, given an expressed consensus of support from the established contributors here. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 19:04, 15 June 2011 (PDT)
 
::I'd be happy to go for much less text content in the portals compared to, say, [[Portal:Appropriate technology]]. Other than that I don't see specific problems with them, and they're a relatively easy style to maintain. I'm not sure about the Wikipedia style of testing... but if I comment too much now it'll only be about my personal preferences, so we need to get some feedback, even do some user testing using two or more different styles.
 
::What do you mean by portal background structures - templates used in Wikipedia portals? Does "automated rotations of selected content" refer to featured pages for a particular area?
 
::Unfortunately it's hard to get much response here (one of the reasons I'm keen to get a wiki-based forum going in place of this page). But I'd be happy to hear what others think. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 21:07, 15 June 2011 (PDT)
 
:::There are lots of little maintenance design structures in Wikipedia portals, such as boxes, color palettes, page layouts, subpages, bots (I can't do those), time and random functions, cross-portal organizers, and so on.  Above that, many topical projects of editors coordinate content creating and promotion efforts. That's the kind of stuff I think applies to general portal support and maintenance. It's a big part of what helps people make sense of a wiki.  If that's not of interest here, then there's not much point in creating all the extra infrastructure. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 05:31, 16 June 2011 (PDT)
 
::::A lot of the content work (having enough good pages for the random thing to be useful, coordinated content and promotion efforts) depends on the community, so the priority (for me, anyway) is building that community - and a simpler portal structure makes sense to me in the meantime. But the random function may still be useful. The main thing is to have something that makes sense and shows people their main options... and that looks better and clearer than landing on a category page. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 10:59, 16 June 2011 (PDT)
 
:::::Being a relative newcomer, I don't have a clear idea about the level and amount of quality content here.  I'm not at all sure how many contributors and readers do. Maybe picking one topic with lots of content and testing more and automated portal sections on the development site would be a low risk way to go next. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 11:57, 16 June 2011 (PDT)
 
::::::Sounds like a good strategy! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 01:26, 18 June 2011 (PDT)
 
An example of how a page can be used to randomly display its subpages is at the development site page, [http://www.whatissustainability.org/Appropedia:Highlighted_Projects/Selected Appropedia:Highlighted_Projects/Selected]. When that page is a subpage of something else, like a portal, the portal page never needs to be updated just because new selected items are added. The selected content will be rotated whenever the portal page is purged. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 14:10, 18 June 2011 (PDT)
 
:I also made a layout page at [http://www.whatissustainability.org/Appropedia:Highlighted_Projects/Selected/Layout Appropedia:Highlighted_Projects/Selected/Layout] that could be used for highlighted projects just about anywhere. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 21:55, 18 June 2011 (PDT)
 
::[http://www.whatissustainability.org/Appropedia:Highlighted_Projects/Selected Appropedia:Highlighted_Projects/Selected] now shows how {{tl|Box-header-watch}} and {{tl|Box-footer}} can be used to contain content.  The size and location of boxes on portal pages would be controlled by the page layout design. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 13:41, 19 June 2011 (PDT)
 
:::Looking good - I think we could use that for our highlighted content boxes for each portal. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 04:39, 20 June 2011 (PDT)
 
::::Thanks.  I'm starting to put together some pieces for a portal layout at [http://www.whatissustainability.org/User:RichardF my test user page]. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 09:35, 20 June 2011 (PDT)
 
Okay, [http://www.whatissustainability.org/User:RichardF my test user page] now has a sample portal page layout more like a typical Wikipedia portal page.  It has two randomly rotating sections. Any thoughts on what you want do next? --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 19:46, 25 June 2011 (PDT)
 
:I now have a working test version on this site at [[User:RichardF/Portal/Appropriate technology]]. Let me know what types of changes you would like to see for it to go live. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 20:07, 28 June 2011 (PDT)
 
::Another way to go is to just dump PortalSpace portals and put them on the corresponding category page.  That's the inclination here anyway, so why not just go with it?! Here's an example at [[:Category:Appropriate technology]]. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 10:19, 29 June 2011 (PDT)
 
== Adapting ported content ==
 
Due to changes in Google's algorithm in 2011 (the "Panda" update) we need to be more careful about duplicated content, within the site, and copied from other sites. Not that we should remove it entirely, where it is good content, but it will help to change it and mix it with other content - i.e. make it more original. I wouldn't want to do this just for the search engines, but I also think it's a chance to improve the quality of these pages.
 
For ported content, where we've used content under an [[open license]], the best thing is to adapt the content: add an introduction, expand it, and rewrite it as appropriate.
 
I've made a new <s>{{tl|copied}}</s> template to place at the bottom of such pages. It requests the reader to help edit, and also adds <noindex> tag to the page - the noindex means it won't show up in search engines until the notice is removed, but it also helps prevent Appropedia being penalized.
 
I'll start adding this tag to some pages, and then pages listed [[Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Copied|here]] are the ones that will need attention. How does that sound? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 12:03, 15 June 2011 (PDT)
 
:On second thoughts, the {{tl|copyedit}} tag can do the same job as long as a comment is made about which sections need rewording. The copied template hasn't taken off, so in the interests of simplicity, I'm marking it as deprecated.
 
:(I just realized that we had a copedit class working on Appropedia recently, and they didn't work on these pages because they weren't added to the same category as those with the copyedit tag.) --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 00:53, 2 October 2011 (PDT)
 
== Mobile Skin Alpha is live (on the dev wiki)! ==
 
Hello folks, I've just finished installing my very alpha release of a mobile skin on whatissustainability.org . It should work automagically if you are using a mobile device and you can enable it as a skin as well. It's called Thirteen.
 
Please let me know what you think and what works and does not. If you want to look at the code it's here ( https://github.com/tahnok/Thirteen ). Enjoy --[[User:Tahnok|Tahnok]] 09:33, 16 June 2011 (PDT)
 
==Lever arms for pedaling==
Some time ago I made an image of Maurice Houbracken's lever arm for use on cranksets (see link at Appropedia article). This system didn't run very smoothly (I saw it in action where he lives, but at a specific point the whole thing blocks up a bit, and this was inherent to the design. So, I made some other designs, and I placed the images of these at [[Pedal_power]]. I was wondering whether anyone here has more knowledge on lever arms and could take a look at whether my systems would work. I need to integrate one in a first human powered vehicle I'll be modelling out, so I need to be certain it will work.
 
The lever arm system could btw be used in all pedal-power related articles, including electricity generator systems.
 
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 02:50, 18 June 2011 (PDT)
:Many people have tinkered with bicycle drivetrains for more than a century, coming up with all sorts of clever alternatives. If any alternative bicycle drivetrain was superior, it would immediately take over the bicycles on the professional racing circuit. Racing may be traditional, but racers who want to win readily adopt any technology (legal or not) that lets them go faster. Examples: lyrca shorts and jerseys to replace wool; aerodynamic helmets and wheels; clip-in pedals; performance enhancing drugs; etc. Alternative drivetrains have failed to dislodge the standard because they are less efficient. This is easy to verify by timing the same cyclist on a measured course using different bicycles or different setups. Racing cyclists who train and compete with the same people regularly get immediate feedback about whether an equipment change is helping or hurting. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 14:38, 29 June 2011 (PDT)
::Each extra bearing introduces more bearing drag and thus energy loss. More bearings also mean more openings where dirt and water can get in, thus more maintenance and more points of potential failure. Bearings wear out, and as they wear, the bearing surfaces get rough which increases the drag. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 11:27, 7 July 2011 (PDT)
 
== Religious content ==
 
I'd like to hear thoughts on a policy about religious content on Appropedia. We've got a couple of articles that very strongly emphasize religious belief. It doesn't seem appropriate, but on what grounds?
 
Relevance? Promotion? Appropedia isn't for promoting your band, so it makes sense that it's not for promoting your religion either?
 
This has been discussed in passing before, and there seems to be some agreement on moving religious content by a user to that user's userspace.
 
Religion can evoke strong feelings and opinions, for and against. I have my own opinions, but those aren't particularly relevant to this discussion. We need a clear policy that is consistent with Appropedia's [[A:mission|mission]], but of course respectful and sensitive. My concern is that by having religious pages in our article space, we're sending mixed messages about Appropedia's purpose, and to those who arrive here for the first time, it can appear as though Appropedia as a site or community is affiliated with a particular religion - which of course it isn't (nor with any absence of religion). Those are individual matters.
 
How do we formulate this? Thoughts, please. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]]
 
:Appropedia certainly has ethical values. As a community, we are in favour of giving people satisfying lives, and combatting disease, hunger, etc.. Religious people (of whom I am not one) frequently derive their ethical convictions from their religions, and might therefore argue that religion is intrinsic to Appropedia's activities. Non-religious people can argue that the foundation for ethics is the desirability of having a world in which each of us, including myself, can lead a fulfilling life, and this foundation has nothing to do with religious belief.
 
:If we can agree on actions to take, then it doesn't really matter if our reasons differ. In the interests of harmony, I think Appropedia should be secular, with no promotion of religion or any other philosophical viewpoint. If I find any content with which I strongly disagree, such as a religious tirade, I find myself being turned off, and my interest in other material declines. Turning people off from Appropedia is, I think, undesirable.
 
:[[User:DOwenWilliams|DOwenWilliams]] 14:59, 19 June 2011 (PDT) David Williams
 
::"religion or any other philosophical viewpoint" - agreed. [[A:Policies]] already talks about politics, Appropedia being for describing and comparing alternatives rather than attacking those with a different point of view. This extends to certain types of philosophies, in my thinking. If it's a "philosophy" of how we treat the earth and the poor, that might fit in a certain context, but if it's Marxism vs Austrian libertarianism, no. Some projects will tend to reveal a more collectivist or more individualist perspective, and that's fine. And agreed about actions as our place of agreement. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 03:26, 20 June 2011 (PDT)
:::I suspect the narrative explanation for ethical behavior is often backwards, i.e. people do not so much choose to behave ethically as a result of having carried out some abstract reasoning from religious first principles, but rather religion is a handy way to rationalize the impulses some people feel to behave ethically, and we do not really understand where those impulses come from. "Because I felt like it" might be the real explanation for much of our behavior, but some people might feel uncomfortable admitting they do not really understand why they do what they do. Religion is not a convincing explanation for ethical behavior because religion doesn't lead all religious people toward any particular behavior, not even within a given sect. Sincere people have used particular religious texts such as the Bible both to justify slavery and condemn it. If religion has been unable to reach one durable consensus on an ethical question as basic as whether owning other people is permissible, how can it be a foundation for ethics?
:::As to the original question, Appropedia articles should be descriptive rather than prescriptive. An article could describe the religious motivations of a particular individual or group, to the extent that these motivations played a role in whatever work the individual or group did which is within Appropedia's remit. But an article should not state religious beliefs as facts, nor take an "in universe" perspective as if the religion is true, any more than we should take an in universe perspective with a work of fiction (for example, describing fictional characters as if they are real). Any first-person assertions of faith (or any other claims not conclusively supported by evidence) belong on user pages as opinion pieces. I'm all for everybody expressing their opinions in user space, because we enjoy sharing our opinions, and it helps Appropedia by disclosing our motives and biases to other contributors. But personal opinions interfere with collaboration, which is what the article space is for. We can collaborate effectively on descriptions of the objective reality which is available to all of us, but it is harder to collaborate on subjective beliefs and opinions that are only available to the individual who holds them. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 12:39, 7 July 2011 (PDT)
 
:::: I am newly registered here and was confronted with this question more or less straight away. I didn't know where & how to voice this and looked for policies without success. Hence [[Appropedia_talk:Appropedia_policy_discussion#neutrality.2C_respect_and_religious_views|I left a message on the Policy Discussion page]]. It is largely in agreement with the above comments. Do let me know if I missed something :) --[[User:Moaltmann|Mischa Altmann]] ([[User_talk:Moaltmann|talk]]) 00:07, 17 January 2013 (PST)
 
== We need a policy on manuals & guides ==
 
Dozens of pages on Appropedia use the word "manual" in the title - see the [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=Special:Search&limit=200&ns0=1&ns1=1&redirs=1&advanced=1&search=manual search results]. I'm not comfortable with this - to me this a "manual" to imply something authoritative and comprehensive. The pages are generally still in early stages (aiming to be manuals, but not there yet) and by nature, a good wiki article is useful, but not exactly authoritative.
 
My suggestions:
* '''The name''': I prefer '''guide''' or ''handbook''' rather than manual, as they sound more like a useful resource rather than instructions that must be followed. ("How to" also sounds okay to me - though this probably describes a more specific topic.) This attitude seems in keeping with the wiki and open knowledge philosophy, providing something that we hope will be useful, but without any promise or warranty. That's how the choice of English words sounds to me, anyway. How do you all feel about the choice of words?
* '''Starting a guide''': My general preference is to build up the necessary info in the form of good articles, including [[how-tos]], and when there is enough good content to form a comprehensive guide to a subject, then we could form it into something a guide or handbook, by using a category and a navigation template. Where a guide is needed on a specific topic, such as "how to choose a sanitation system" (taking the reader through choices related to context, costs and impacts)
* '''Naming of components''': As suggested in the proposed guideline at [[Help:Page naming #Topics]], the name should be descriptive - avoid the form of "Foo 1," "Foo 2," or "Foo chapter 3" etc, as this doesn't tell someone browsing what they'll can hope to find on a page, and it breaks with the wiki principle of intuitive page names.
Thoughts? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 11:48, 25 June 2011 (PDT)
 
:I tend to think of a "manual" as something that goes in my glove compartment or comes with my computer - it's about a specific product. I agree that term probably is overused here. When I was trying out navboxes, I came across the [[Appropriate living manual TOC|Appropriate living manual]]. It already had the {{tl|Appropriate living manual browsebar}} across the top of the related pages.  It looks like this.
{{Appropriate living manual browsebar}}
:I added the {{tl|Appropriate living manual navbox}} to the bottom of those pages. It looks like this.
{{Appropriate living manual navbox}}
:Calling that series of articles a manual seems a bit presumptuous to me, but to be honest, I get that feeling about the concept of "appropriate" technology articles in general. Calling collections of articles guides or handbooks is a little softer in its connotation.
 
:Another approach Wikipedia uses for related collections of articles (besides navboxes) is to tie them together with infoboxes of the style shown at [[Wikipedia:Category:"Part of a series on" templates]].  Two examples include [[Wikipedia:Talk:Ecology#Ecology template]] and [[Wikipedia:Template:Transport]]. These template don't presume the articles form a guide or handbook, but simply a common theme.  --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 14:12, 25 June 2011 (PDT)
 
:: I am not sure how I feel about manuals on Appropedia.  I had originally thought that Appropedia would be the descriptive resource behind other people's prescriptive manuals on living. That is that we would be the library of project descriptions, processes, stories and outcomes, and then other organizations could make 'manuals' specific to their stakeholders and audience (since the idea of an overall living manual is ridiculous). On a separate note, some of the AT living manual is painfully terrible and colonial. You can see a few of my comments on just a small page here - [[Talk:Appropriate_living_and_networking]]. I DO NOT like the idea of telling people how to live.  I do like working together to find ways that work better in specific contexts. Some possible policies include:
::* An easy answer would be to avoid telling people how to live all together... i.e. no "how to live manuals".
::* A more balanced answer might be to make "how to live" pages much more specific, e.g. How to decrease your carbon footprint in the United States, How to secure clean drinking water in Dominican Republic, etc. 
::* Another answer is to make "how to live" pages be under a user's page, e.g. User:Lonny/How_to_not_keep_doing_the_same_things_that_made_AT_fail_in_the_past... but invite others to edit that space.
::Does anyone else have any other ideas?  In the mean time, can we just delete pages like - [[Appropriate_living_for_one_person]]?  I can't even figure out where to start a useful argument on how people should look (''lean and muscular''... really?  all of us?).  Sorry for the rant. I am really happy to be having these discussions and know that we can come up with ways, together, to provide resources for people and communities working towards a more thrivable life.
::Thanks, --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] 18:52, 25 June 2011 (PDT)
 
::PS I see this as a much different question than a guide on "how to size a photovoltaic system". I strongly welcome guides like that, where, if a person/community wants a photovoltaic system the cocreated manual can show the process (and hopefully it is then updated for clarity and accuracy by the people that use it). --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] 18:52, 25 June 2011 (PDT)
 
:::In my line of work, evaluation, we often make distinctions between characterizations (descriptions) and appraisals (values-based judgments). In this area, it seems that “sustainable living” is primarily descriptive, while “appropriate living” is fundamentally judgmental.
 
:::It also seems that it typically will be a lot easier to describe how to do this or that in a sustainable way – potential material for a manual. After that, values-based criteria can be applied to the practice to decide whether it would be appropriate for a given set of world views and circumstances – potential material for guides and handbooks.
 
:::It’s also possible to describe values-based criteria and judgments about things. That’s what encyclopedias are good for. So, it seems that an encyclopedia about appropriately sustainable stuff would have room for both descriptive material about sustainable practices that could be used for manuals; and evaluative judgments about practices, sustainable and otherwise, that explicitly present the criteria for those judgments as the fodder for developing guides and handbooks. That way, the readers have the opportunity to make their own judgments about the applicability to them for both sustainability and appropriateness of the practices in question in the context of their own values and circumstances.
 
:::The writing policies and guidelines in a situation like this then would focus on making sure claims about sustainability were primarily descriptive and independently verifiable, while assertions about appropriateness clearly described or referenced the world views, criteria and circumstances under which such claims would hold. This probably is a much higher standard than many appropriate this or that articles here can meet. However, putting clear guidelines and introductory materials out there about the basic distinctions between sustainable and appropriate technologies certainly would go a long way to helping contributors and readers understand the fundamental underpinnings of Appropedia, how it could be of use and value to them, and how the encyclopedia could be improved moving forward. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 22:39, 25 June 2011 (PDT)
 
{{undent}} Some comments:
* Substituting the words "guide" or "handbook" for "manual" sounds to me like a pointless run on the [[wikipedia:Euphemism#Euphemism treadmill|euphemism treadmill]]. Whatever connotation we try to avoid by changing the name of a thing, it eventually reattaches under the new name as long as the properties of the thing remain the same. I think content is more important than titles. The primary function of a title, in my view, is to usefully summarize a page to facilitate search and recall, not to shape a reader's impression of it. People should and eventually will form their impressions of content by reading the content.
* Name changes should be on a case by case basis. I don't think the number of pages with the word "manual" in their titles is, by itself, good or bad. For some of those pages, maybe the word fits, and for others maybe it does not. Maybe there are other manual-like pages that don't call themselves manuals, but should. Ideally we should respond to what we know are problems rather than what we think are problems. Is there a page for which we know the title is misleading people and causing harm? Let's fix that one first. Unfortunately we might be flying blind until someone complains.
* I agree that numbers by themselves are not usefully descriptive titles, except for articles that are actually about those numbers. See for example [[wikipedia:1]], [[wikipedia:2]], etc.
* I agree with Lonny that appropriateness is unavoidably specific to geography and context. For example with respect to gardening and farming, there can be dozens of distinct [[wikipedia:Hardiness zone|hardiness zones]] that determine what crops can grow in a given location. Gardening advice appropriate for the tropics probably won't work in Greenland.
** However, I do like the idea of telling people how to live, or at least telling them what will happen if they ignore the laws of nature. An obvious example is the need to cut everyone's [[wikipedia:carbon footprint|carbon footprint]] to one tonne or preferably less of [[wikipedia:carbon dioxide equivalent|carbon dioxide equivalent]] per year. That does not force everybody to live in exactly the same way, but it does enormously constrain our choices. People who manage to get anywhere near to the needed low carbon living will have a lot more in common with each other than with the high emitters. For example, I haven't seen a credible argument that it is possible to stay under one tonne while burning any liquid fuels for transport. Not when [http://www.physorg.com/news/2010-11-person-emits-tons-co2-year.html eating, by itself, generates about two tonnes per year].
** I'm not a huge fan of the word "appropriate", not so much because it is judgmental but because it is vague. But I don't see it as an actively harmful word. Language isn't precise enough to express a problem that really exists in the world of numbers. What we really care about are things that can be quantified: kilowatt-hours, tonnes of carbon dioxide, various measures of soil fertility, agricultural yields, mortality rates, literacy rates, poverty measures, etc. Without quantifiable metrics we have no way to tell whether we are getting closer to whatever goal we have. Without numbers, all we can do is maybe feel good about ourselves.
* I agree that primarily personal narratives belong on, or should at least start as, user subpages. Anything with the pronoun "I" in it. If an appreciable number of people begin to practice one person's approach to something, then it starts to become the basis for a descriptive article. When a particular method gets a name, we can describe it. Rather than presenting it as the only valid approach.
* The more I see the difficulties on Appropedia, the more I understand the reasoning behind [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not|What Wikipedia is not]]. Some types of content lend themselves to massive remote collaboration more than others. Wikipedia has, for better or worse, made a formula for excluding most content that hinges primarily or solely on any person's opinion. On Appropedia, we embrace a big chunk of that content, so we have to work out how we are going to handle it.
** In any dispute, there has to be a final arbiter. Hopefully we can resolve disagreements before the last guy (presumably Lonny) has to rule, but the last guy has to be there to break deadlocks. Otherwise the deciding factor becomes endurance in edit wars.
--[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 11:42, 27 June 2011 (PDT)
 
== Important topics ==
 
Interesting source of popular topics on Wikipedia about international development: [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:WikiProject International development/Popular pages]].
 
That could make a good list of ideas for anyone, say a student, looking for a topic to write on for Appropedia. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 12:44, 1 July 2011 (PDT)
 
:I think those are very useful encyclopedic project tools for tracking popularity, quality, and importance.  There are two basic types of online tools, one with popularity info and one without.  Here's how they look for the International development project.
 
:* Popularity, Quality and Importance
:** [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:WikiProject International development/Popular pages]]
:** [http://toolserver.org/~alexz/pop/view.php?proj=intldev&month=Jun11&limit=100&offset=0 Toolserver Popular pages]
:* Quality and Importance
:** [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:WikiProject International development#Statistics]]
:** [http://toolserver.org/~enwp10/bin/list2.fcgi?run=yes&projecta=International_development&namespace=&pagename=&quality=&importance=&score=&limit=250&offset=1&sorta=Quality&sortb=Importance Toolserver Article lists]
:The Toolserver pages have lots of options for how the information is displayed, not just as they show up on Wikipedia project pages. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 16:13, 1 July 2011 (PDT)
 
I copied the Top 100 most popular list from Wikipedia and linked them here to see which articles already have been created.
{{User:RichardF/International development top 100}}
--[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 19:20, 1 July 2011 (PDT)
 
:Here's a similar list of pages and links for the environment.
:* Popularity, Quality and Importance
:** [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:WikiProject Environment/Popular pages]]
:** [http://toolserver.org/~alexz/pop/view.php?proj=envir&month=Jun11&limit=100&offset=0 Toolserver Popular pages]
:* Quality and Importance
:** [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:WikiProject Environment/Assessment#Current status]]
:** [http://toolserver.org/~enwp10/bin/list2.fcgi?run=yes&projecta=Environment&namespace=&pagename=&quality=&importance=&score=&limit=250&offset=1&sorta=Quality&sortb=Importance Toolserver Article lists]
{{User:RichardF/Environment top 100}}
--[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 10:33, 3 July 2011 (PDT)
 
I went back to the [http://toolserver.org/~enwp10/bin/list2.fcgi?run=yes&projecta=International+development&namespace=&pagename=&quality=&importance=&score=&showExternal=on&limit=100&offset=1&sorta=Score&sortb=Importance Wikipedia Release Version Tools] for WikiProjects like International development and added them to the table below, [[User:RichardF/Contents/Lists|Article ratings, indexes, lists and outlines]]. The ratings links are used to select articles for Wikipedia offline releases. When you dig into the details you can see that pageviews are part of the [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Article selection|article selection criteria]]. Taken together, the article selection score adds up information about [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia talk:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Article selection#Score = Importance + Quality + Popularity|an article's importance, quality and popularity]]. While I was at it, I also included some related indexes (a-b-c order), lists (grouped by topic), and outlines (fancy lists+ grouped by topic).  Viewing these tables is one way to see how Appropedia article coverage corresponds with Wikipedia article coverage.
{{User:RichardF/Contents/Lists}}
While doing this, it occurred to me that if editors here developed a set of Appropedia outlines that laid out the basic intended content coverage by major topic, it would be ''very'' easy to see a number of things, such as the road map for Appropedia's content and how far it's coming along. Those outlines also would come in handy for updating things like categories, portals, to-do lists, etc. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 13:38, 8 July 2011 (PDT)
 
:I started adding trees tables that include the Appropedia categorytree, plus the corresponding categorytree, article and outline TOCs from Wikipedia. These tables also can be used to compare coverages of topics. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 18:42, 8 July 2011 (PDT)
 
::I added the first navbox, [[User:RichardF/Solar energy navbox|Solar energy]], to the article mapping table. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 10:23, 9 July 2011 (PDT)
 
== question about living roofs ==
 
I am hoping you would be kind enough to answer a question for me:
 
I would like to put a living roof on a new home, but I live in the woods and am concerned about mice and moles chewing up the waterproof lining and/or getting into the house through seams in the decking.  Do there tend to be problems with this? 
 
The lining would have to have seams, due to the undulating roof shape (structure is conical/hip design, and footprint is an irregular shape), and part of the house would be mostly-or-totally underground.  The plan is not to cover the roof with dirt but with another, lighter growing medium.
 
Thanks much,
 
Molly
 
== New portal design ==
 
[[User:RichardF]] has proposed a [[User:RichardF/Portal/Appropriate technology|new portal layout]] - any thoughts? I think it's an improvement. It will take more work to set up and maintain than the current very simple portals, but if Richard is happy to take a lead with this, I think it's fine. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 12:23, 3 July 2011 (PDT)
:I think it looks much better.  I am a little worried about the added maintenance, and would rather see a little more automation. For example, having stubs and requests be automated (or maybe just have stubs, and have a bot find stubs within a category to populate that with).
:Thanks for the awesome work, -[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] 13:58, 3 July 2011 (PDT)
 
::"A portal is an introductory page for a given topic. It complements the main article of the subject by introducing the reader to key articles, images, and categories that further describe the subject. Portals also help editors find related projects and things they can do to help improve Wikipedia." --[[Wikipedia:Portal:Contents/Portals]]
 
::Thanks, Chris & Lonny. It's really not that hard to set up a portal. The effort is in selecting content worth showcasing and working on. That's really not a function of the portal itself. It's a function of the editorial projects that identify importance, quality, popularity and maintenance needs of articles related to the topic. If topics are going to be highlighted in the sidebar and similar top-level groupings, then they probably should have some type of listing of the most important subtopics (with existing articles or not) related to them. Those listing can provide the general basis for what gets showcased in the portals. The quality of those articles can help determine where they are showcased - requested, stub, selected. I really don't see much work for bots here. The work I see is for editors. A bot could take the 650 stubs and sort them into subcategories, but editors still need to decide which of those stub should be the focus of improvement drives.  If Appropedia isn't ready for editorial projects, then those items simply could be removed from portal until it is. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 19:08, 3 July 2011 (PDT)
 
:::Lonny, I like the bot idea. I'll see if I can get the bot to make lists on the wiki for stubs within Category:Water etc... a bit fiddly, but not too hard. Then as Richard says, editors can choose from that list for the portal.
 
:::We could perhaps leave the requests until activity picks up. If there's an area that needs work, covering more than one article, then I wouldn't mind having that listed as a content request. Just a possibility. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 00:51, 5 July 2011 (PDT)
 
I implemented the new design at [[Portal:Appropriate technology]]. I'll redesign [[Portal:Green living]] next. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 10:47, 16 July 2011 (PDT)
:The [[Portal:Green living]] redesign is live. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 19:11, 16 July 2011 (PDT)
 
::Cool - looks really nice! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 22:20, 16 July 2011 (PDT)
 
:::Thanks.  Water is up next. Would you mind changing its [[MediaWiki:Sitenotice|Sitenotice]] link to the portal? :-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 05:31, 17 July 2011 (PDT)
 
::::[[Portal:Water|Water]] is running.  ;-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 12:26, 17 July 2011 (PDT)
 
[[File:Appropedia wordle.png|left|150px]] <br>[[Portal:Solar‎]] now is lit up.  Considering "Solar" is the most common topical Appropedia article title word, would an admin be willing to add it to the sidebar and [[MediaWiki:Sitenotice|Sitenotice]]? --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 19:46, 18 July 2011 (PDT)<br clear=all>
 
:Good call - and great work!
:The sidebar is trying to cover all the major areas, so Solar doesn't ''quite'' fit (energy is the major area, solar is a sub-area). But since it's such a major theme on Appropedia, and we want to show off our strong points, I reckon it's great to have it highlighted. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 05:08, 19 July 2011 (PDT)
:The sitenotice [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Sitenotice&oldid=178510 now] highlights two of the new portals. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 05:16, 19 July 2011 (PDT)
 
{{Portal box|Appropriate technology|Construction and materials|Energy|Food and agriculture|Green living|Health and safety|Projects|Solar|Transport|Water}}
::Thanks.  I also added {{tl|Portal box|}} that can be used to include portal links in article "See also" sections. The <s>four</s> <s>five</s> <s>six</s> <s>seven</s> <s>eight</s> <s>nine</s> ten portals currently using the Wikipedia style are shown to the right.  I'll pretend like you didn't give me an opening to comment on how Appropedia presents "major areas" and just ponder my next portal project. ;-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 06:32, 19 July 2011 (PDT)
 
The redesigned [[Portal:Construction and materials]] is built and operating. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 09:51, 21 July 2011 (PDT)
 
:Still forging ahead with portals, and you've covered more than half of the main areas now - great stuff. {{tl|Portal box}} looks nice too. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 00:41, 22 July 2011 (PDT)
 
[[Portal:Food and agriculture]] is cooking like yeast cakes!  :-o  --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 19:08, 23 July 2011 (PDT)
 
The [[Portal:Energy|Energy portal]] is recharged!  --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 10:52, 26 July 2011 (PDT)


[[Portal:Health and safety]] is redesigned. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 21:29, 30 July 2011 (PDT)
We can be more flexible than Wikipedia, though, e.g. by counting popular sustainability/development blogs as "reliable sources" that count towards notability.


[[Portal:Transport]] is running. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 17:26, 31 July 2011 (PDT)
What are your thoughts? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] ([[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]) 05:43, 12 June 2015 (PDT)


:Impressive work, in quality and quantity - with a bonus of wordplay ;-). They look very cool in that portal box to the right.
::I've been thinking about this a little bit, but not about the notability aspect. There's several individuals and their work that I'd like to profile. In many cases the individual is more or less synonymous with the organization they head or the technique they developed. [[Sepp Holzer]] is a perfect example which already exists on the wiki. I can't imagine anyone whose biographical details will be sufficient (for the purpose of this wiki) to justify their own article. --[[User:Ethan|Ethan]] ([[User talk:Ethan|talk]])


I managed to add [[Portal:Projects|Projects]]. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 16:23, 6 August 2011 (PDT)


== Userfication ==
Hi Appropedia,
I have a question, and have looked around a bounch and am still not sure where to post it.  First, I so appreciate that you have made this website exist!  It is of such great service to the world, and has so much potential to do even more!


I've proposed a guideline at [[Appropedia:Userfication and incubation]].  
I would like to share resources that involve individual's discoveries.


There are a few pages here which aren't really suitable for Appropedia, but it's been hard for us to actually delete them as we don't want to discourage the editors, and would rather the page was just improved. But then we have sometimes really problematic content that stays on Appropedia... and often it doesn't improve. So I'd like to start userfying or incubating soon. (In fact I've already move 3 pages to an editor's userspace recently.) --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 11:16, 7 July 2011 (PDT)
1) is it OK to share about any one who is already dead?
2) is it OK to share about people who are living by putting a link to a third party? if that third party is a professional certifying body that might get into a gray area of promotion.  I also do not know most of the people who work in the field, but the field itself should have the right to articulate who belongs in it.  Also, attribution for the general category should be given (founder of the certifying body, called ISMETA, whose name escapes me, coined the term "somatic education" and "movement education" which can cover multiple methods of teaching movement.
3) ISMETA also includes movement _therapy_ which is not, by its nature, open source, as far as I understand it (unless you would consider someone offering to be a physical therapist without any training and claiming to heal conditions to be using material they've read in an open-source fashion).  How do I handle this?  is it enough to simply give a disclaimer?


== Anti-spam work ==
Thanks!
--JoshuaDM


In case you're like me and spend more time here than on the front page, there's a new announcement:
:Hi Joshua. There's no problem with sharing about someone who is already dead, and providing a suitable link is always helpful. A verifying body could make sense.


:'''After more than 24 million views and 170 thousand edits, we finally needed to implement a more robust spam protection. Thank you to all the vigilant editors that have helped keep spam off Appropedia over these years. Hopefully the new reCaptcha will help abate while not making Appropedia any harder to use on slow connections. Please let us know if you have any problems. '''
:An article being to promotional wouldn't ever be about a single link - it's the overall emphasis and balance of the article.  


Please leave any feedback here - if you're finding it helpful, or unhelpful...
:It's fine to share about things that are not open source, as long as the text is released under our open content license.  


:I hope that helps! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] ([[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]])
Thanks, Chriswaterguy.  I will attempt to conform to these guidelines, and if I make any mistakes please let me know so I can correct them.  Thanks. --Joshua


My initial observation is that it hasn't helped all that much - I just deleted a spam page and blocked the spammer, and we've had several new users that look like spambots. A little embarrassing since I've been championing the reCAPTCHA idea, but hey, we have to try...
== Nominating Ethan for admin ==


But there are more options - I'm looking into how Wikipedia blocks proxies used by spammers - that might help. In the meantime, the admin team here will continue to delete and block so that the Appropedia community can continue building and sharing their knowledge. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 00:15, 11 July 2011 (PDT)
[[User:Ethan|Ethan]] has been flagging spam, and being an admin would let him work on this more effectively. He's been an enthusiastic and trustworthy contributor here, so I see no reason not to make him an admin. Support, oppose or have another comment? Please comment below. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] ([[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]) 06:20, 12 June 2015 (PDT)
:Yeah, it looks like ReCAPTCHA was too successful. There are a bunch of other captchas built into ConfirmEdit though. There's an upgraded math captcha that uses the <nowiki><math></nowiki> tags to create an image instead of just plain text. QuestyCaptcha lets you define a series of simple questions / responses. My favourite is [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:KittenAuth KittenAuth] where you have to chose the picture of the kitten to create an account / make a link edit :P  --[[User:Tahnok|Tahnok]] 07:20, 11 July 2011 (PDT)
:I'd be glad to help out. :) --[[User:Ethan|Ethan]] ([[User talk:Ethan|talk]]) 19:35, 12 June 2015 (PDT)
::Quick thoughts:
:Support, [[User:Philralph|Philralph]] ([[User talk:Philralph|talk]]) 01:55, 24 June 2015 (PDT)
::* Anything based on [[mw:Extension:ConfirmEdit]] probably has the best guarantee of being safe & stable, as it runs on Wikimedia sites. That includes the standard MathCaptcha - not sure about the upgraded one.
::Great. Thank you Ethan, welcome to adminship. You should see new tools on pages (such as the ability to delete directly). You should also see new tools at [[Special:SpecialPages]], such as mass delete (use with care). Please feel free to ask whenever you have a question. Thank you for all you do. --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] ([[User talk:Lonny|talk]]) 17:58, 19 July 2015 (PDT)
::* That said, I think KittenAuth sounds hilarious, and fun. If it works at least as well as other options, and there's an accessibility option for those who can't see the picture, I'd vote for that.
:::Thanks everyone. I tried out the delete function on the lastest spam articles. What's the standard procedure for the spambot-created users? I'll take a closer look at [[Special:SpecialPages]]; there's a lot there. Any recommended regular mainenance tasks? --[[User:Ethan|Ethan]] ([[User talk:Ethan|talk]]) 13:15, 31 July 2015 (PDT)
::* Maybe CAPTCHA's not the most important link in the spam chain to be working on first - maybe we need to find out how Wikimedia sites block "TOR exit nodes and other proxies" (as I was advised [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28technical%29#How_Wikipedia_stops_the_nonsense_bots here]). Maybe there's an update list from Wikimedia we can connect to, as with the Spam blacklist extension. My concern here is to not block genuine users - that can happen with IP blocks.
::--[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 10:20, 11 July 2011 (PDT)
:::There's an extension called [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:TorBlock tor block]. Would you like me to put it on the test wiki? --[[User:Tahnok|Tahnok]] 11:11, 11 July 2011 (PDT)
:::Yes please - that looks like the right one. I wonder if there are other IP blocking extensions/settings, or if it's just TorBlock?
:::Before going with it on live, we'll want to check [[wikipedia:Wikipedia:Advice to users using Tor to bypass the Great Firewall]], and make sure we're not accidentally making it hard for people to edit. A few years ago I got blocked from editing a small Wikipedia (the Malay one) even when I was logged in, and that's an aggravating experience for a genuine editor. Not sure how, but something to do with a blocked IP address, even though I was editing from a house which definitely didn't have anyone vandalizing the Malay Wikipedia. Possibly it had to do with dynamic IP addresses used in Australia. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 21:43, 11 July 2011 (PDT)
::::What kind of blocks should be set for Tor usage? The default setting for that extension is to prevent users accessing the wiki via tor from creating accounts and possible from editing anonymously. Registered accounts are allowed to edit if they are logged in, but it looks like you could prevent "fresh" accounts from editing. What would appropedia's preference be? --[[User:Tahnok|Tahnok]] 08:54, 15 July 2011 (PDT)


:::::Good question... how does it work on Wikipedia? I think they're pretty strict on Tor accounts, but they have an instruction page on what to do if you have to use Tor (e.g. Wikipedia users in China - less applicable to us). --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 00:30, 16 July 2011 (PDT)
== Lightweight structural panels 3D print ==


== User tools for spam fighting? ==
Think of a cross between milk crates and giant legos.  Now build a house with it.  If you're actively intrigued about how to address this challenge with a 3D printer, please see http://www.appropedia.org/Lightweight_structural_panels_3D_print  because I really don't know much about how to go about it.  I only have an idea with potential.


I'm trying out some [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Gadgets|Gadgets]] at Wikipedia, hoping to find some user tools to make editing and maintenance easier. E.g. [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Twinkle|Twinkle]] has some useful features, but some of the features aren't relevant here, so we could maybe trim down the code.
== top menu link for Community action ==


Anyone have other favorite editing tools? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 00:58, 12 July 2011 (PDT)
Can we have a link in the menu that goes across the top of pages for Community action (as in the areas of the side bar)? I've moved 'Sustainable community action' to [[Community action for sustainability]], which fits better with the link, and is perhaps a slightly less opaque name (plus am making corresponding changes to category names, etc), Cheers, [[User:Philralph|Philralph]] ([[User talk:Philralph|talk]]) 08:21, 13 August 2015 (PDT)
:I would like to have a one-click citation tool. I.e., click on any Web page, and automatically get the wikitext for a [[:Category:Citation templates|citation template]] completely filled out, with the original page automatically archived on [[wikipedia:WebCite|WebCite]] to make it [[wikipedia:Wikipedia:Link rot|link rot resistant]]. I have not timed myself for doing the procedure manually, but it takes several minutes, requiring multiple browser tab switches and copies and pastes. It is troubling that not even on Wikipedia, where citations are fundamental to everything, is there any comprehensive citation tool that everyone can use. It doesn't help that seemingly every Web page finds new ways to obscure or obfuscate the citation data, making it hard for even a human to piece together. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 11:54, 12 July 2011 (PDT)
::What specifically do you mean by "editing and maintenance" in your first sentence? By themselves, those words are too broad to define what you want in a tool; each may encompass dozens if not hundreds of distinct tasks. A tool that someone else likes might not address your need. When looking for a tool, I suggest doing this:
::* On a user subpage where you take notes, list the tasks you want to automate in whole or part with a tool.
::* For each task, perform it a few times manually, and list all the steps in your notes. The steps which are mindlessly repetitive may be amenable to automation using currently available software technology. The steps requiring ill-defined judgment calls may not be.
::* Other people can then examine your tool specification and recognize whether the tools they use can meet it.
::* When looking for tools, Wikipedia is a good place to start, but often the problems and solutions on Wikipedia are much more elaborate than those on a small wiki. Therefore, look for existing ports of Wikipedia's tools to other small wikis. I.e., look for all the well-run small wikis we can find, in any topic area, and see how they handle their problems.
::** To the extent that I have looked at other small wikis, I have not been too impressed. But I have not looked at nearly all of them. It would be nice to find someone who reviews small wikis for their technical competence, who has identified the small wikis with best practice.
::--[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 12:31, 12 July 2011 (PDT)


:::I wanted to start with an open question, in case there are people who already have favorite tools. As for deciding what we want to automate, that's a good idea, though sometimes a good tool can suggest possibilities than hadn't occurred to me.
Also would be good to have links to [[Community action for sustainability]] or [[Community action for sustainability|Community action]] on [[Welcome to Appropedia/Categories]] & [[Appropedia:CategoryTree]] [[User:Philralph|Philralph]] ([[User talk:Philralph|talk]]) 07:45, 16 August 2015 (PDT)
:::Changing the topic a bit from spam-fighting to general editing, I find that for real wikignome editing work, [[A:Pywikipediabot|Pywikipediabot]] is good. I've also installed a "Wikibar," adapted from a Wikipedia user - and shared the instructions at [[User:Chriswaterguy/Wikibar]]. That's very low-tech, and has the templates and chunks of code I commonly use on Appropedia.
:::[[A:AWB|AWB]] looks useful for Wikignome work, and is easier than Pywikipediabot, but I'm getting an error when trying to install in Linux. (It's a native Windows app.) So I'm sticking with Pywikipediabot, and even helping to debug it and hacking it a little. (I'm not a coder, so it's very basic hacking.) --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 09:15, 15 July 2011 (PDT)


:::I'll start a new topic below re [[#Interesting small wikis]]. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 10:26, 16 July 2011 (PDT)
:I bet most-all of Category:[[Taking action]] could be merged into CAS, and then CAS could replace it on the Category Tree. --[[User:Ethan|Ethan]] ([[User talk:Ethan|talk]]) 11:40, 17 August 2015 (PDT)


== Category sorting ==
== commercial article? ==


I'm going to talk a bit geeky, so if that's not your thing, please skip this one! :-)
I'd like for someone to take a look at [[The Economics of UK's Residential Solar Power]] and tell me what you think about it. It's been written by, and links to, a website that compares different solarvoltaic installation services in the UK. I'm not sure whether this crosses a line in terms of advertising content. It does appear to offer some useful, if unsourced, information. I'm sure at least part of the motivation for creating the article was for SEO reasons, but I don't think that's sufficient reason to remove it if they're also adding substantive content to Appropedia. Thoughts? --[[User:Ethan|Ethan]] ([[User talk:Ethan|talk]]) 11:52, 17 August 2015 (PDT)


For the main page in a category, it's usual practice in many wikis to have it display at the head of the list of pages - this can be done by "piping" using a space - So to put an article at the top of Category:Foo, the category tag would be: <nowiki>[[Category:Foo| ]]</nowiki>. It took me a while to figure out what "best practice" is - now I suggest we do it this way.
== Question on Naming Conventions ==


(A small related item: Removing unneeded category sorting tags to improve usability. A few months back we changed default sorting of pages in categories, so pages sort by pagename - e.g. even if it's called "Appropedia:Foo" or "Template:Foo" it will be sorted under F for foo, not A for "Appropedia:" or T for "Template:". We've still got a lot of ''<nowiki>{{DEFAULTSORT:{{PAGENAME}}}}</nowiki>'' and ''</nowiki>|{{PAGENAME}}</nowiki>'' piping in categories, and I believe that unneeded code makes editing more confusing than it needs to be for newbies. So, I worked out how to remove them with [[User:ChriswaterguyBot|my bot]] and started removing them all. 695 pages done so far, but I've missed some, so I'll download the new site dump and run it again in a few days. Note: normally bot edits are hidden on the [[Special:RecentChanges|RecentChanges]] page, but there's a "show bots" option.) --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 23:25, 14 July 2011 (PDT)
Was fleshing out an index on my new project page and wanted to ask about the naming conventions for internal page links. First, is it OK to use separate pages for sub-sections of a project or is it preferable to only use sub-sections on the one project page? Is there a convention for naming internal pages and links so they relate just to a parent project?
:An alternative is to use {{Tl|Cat main}}{{Tlw|Cat main}} to display the main article in the category page description. Advantages:
:* A user can look at the wikitext of the category page itself to see how that message got there.
:* There is no need to rely on a newbie-baffling indirect piping trick in the wikitext of the article itself.
:* The piping trick merely sorts the "main" article to the head of category list, but does not explicitly label the "main" article as such.
:{{Tl|Cat main}} is not here yet so I will port it from Wikipedia now. Good luck on making categories "usable" - categories were probably the single most confusing feature for me when I was new to [[MediaWiki]] editing. I had to read [[wikipedia:Help:Category]] repeatedly before I understood how to do things such as create new category pages. There is probably no way to get around the learning burden of categories. People who are willing to make the effort to understand them eventually will understand them. People who don't like to read the manuals will have lots of problems. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 10:55, 15 July 2011 (PDT)
::Also, while working on categories do you intend to address the biggest problem with categories on Appropedia? Namely: many of our "category" pages are masquerading as articles, with enormously long article-like content in their description sections. This degrades the usefulness of category pages by violating the [[wikipedia:Principle of least astonishment|Principle of least astonishment]]. When someone browses to a category, they are looking for links to related articles, not the full text of what should be in the main article for the category. By misusing categories in this way, we are teaching people the wrong way to use MediaWiki by example, and (if I may generalize correctly from myself) likely putting off experienced Wikipedia editors who visit Appropedia. The more we deviate from best practice on Wikipedia, for no good reason, the more uncertainty we create for people who have learned from that practice. The presence of category pages masquerading as articles here raises the question of whether category pages are supposed to do that. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 11:03, 15 July 2011 (PDT)


::That's true - with a hatnote (whether cat main or cat header or something else) it's perhaps not important to sort the main topic to the top. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 08:13, 16 July 2011 (PDT)
Thank you. {{unsigned|EricHunting|23 August 2015}}


:::While researching what is already here, I found that I had earlier ported {{Tl|Catmore}} to Appropedia, but (evidently) since then, someone changed [[wikipedia:Template:Catmore]] to a redirect on Wikipedia to [[wikipedia:Template:Cat main]]. These are examples of [[wikipedia:WP:HATNOTE|hatnote templates]]. See [[wikipedia:Template:Hatnote templates documentation]]. I will try to decode the maze of hatnote templates on Wikipedia and see what we should have on Appropedia. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 12:11, 15 July 2011 (PDT)
:My opinion is 1) Go for it. If it turns out there's not much substance on a particular page, it can easily be merged into the parent page. 2) Check out [[Help:Page naming]]. I would title the pages something like [[Open House Fabrication]], [[Open House Budget]] and so on. --[[User:Ethan|Ethan]] ([[User talk:Ethan|talk]]) 12:16, 23 August 2015 (PDT)
{{undent}} There is also a {{Tl|Cat header}} template, which duplicates the function of Wikipedia's hatnote templates. In my view this is an unjustified deviation from Wikipedia's best practice. That is, the documentation for {{Tl|Cat header}} does not explain how it is better than Wikipedia's category page style. Given that Wikipedia is by far the world's most successful wiki, I think we should take it as the standard for best practice unless we identify a real reason to do something differently. Being different only for the sake of being different increases the learning burden for editors who are familiar with Wikipedia. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 13:47, 15 July 2011 (PDT)


:I'm biased here, since I made the cat header & topic header templates, but I'll explain my thinking. I like a more descriptive hatnote - a few words of explanation, enlightenment or provocation without having to go to the topic article. The words of context plus the possibility of a thumbnail image make it better looking & less dry/technical feeling.
:Agree with Ethan. Unless they're short sections, it's often better to have separate pages, that link to each other.  
: In function it's almost identical, it's easy for the reader, and most editors don't edit category pages anyway. That doesn't negate your points at all, but it's a tradeoff. That's my preference, but I'm not so wedded to it that I'd fight a pitched battle for it. :) --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 08:13, 16 July 2011 (PDT)
::Any needed description can go below the hatnote. I never noticed a problem that needed fixing with the simpler style on Wikipedia (e.g. [[wikipedia:Category:Energy]]). Evidently millions of Wikipedia users didn't notice a problem either. This isn't something I'd go to war over, just something where I don't see how the benefits of deviating from Wikipedia outweigh the cost (giving someone who knows how to edit on Wikipedia another unnecessary thing to learn). --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 21:49, 16 July 2011 (PDT)
:::Below the hatnote ''can'' work, but I like the layout of the {{tl|cat header}}, I like the look of it, the fact that the intro text is a parameter gives an implicit limit to the amount that can be written. The extra effort seems minor compared to our overall usability challenges. (Fairly self-explanatory, I think.) There's also the fact that Wikipedia categories contain topic articles, with the occasional list, whereas we have lots of article types.
:::I'd like to stick with this style for now, but if it turns out there's a wider preference for another style, I'm happy to either see the cat header modified, or go with the Wikipedia style. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 10:52, 19 July 2011 (PDT)


=== "Category articles" about to be moved to mainspace ===
:Having the patent project as part of the pagename is a good idea, so visitors can quickly see what it's about. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] ([[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]) 06:54, 24 August 2015 (PDT)


Re "Also, while working on categories do you intend to address the biggest problem with categories on Appropedia? Namely: many of our "category" pages are masquerading as articles, with enormously long article-like content in their description sections."
:Thanks for the suggestions. I'll give that a try. --[[User:EricHunting|EricHunting]] ([[User talk:EricHunting|talk]]) 06:58, 25 August 2015 (PDT)


There's a bit of a history here, but in brief,  we've agreed on this a while ago, but that leaves the issue of moving them.
== Ekopedia status ==


I worked out that by using Special: Export & Special:Import, (with an edit of the xml file in between) we can conserve the page history (since MediaWiki doesn't allow moving of category pages). I came up with that myself - since I'm not a coder I'm proud of any little geeky achievements I come up with.)
It appears that Ekopedia is down. Are the site owners/ admins aware of the outage? --[[User:Ethan|Ethan]] ([[User talk:Ethan|talk]]) 11:47, 27 August 2015 (PDT)


Re timing, I've actually just been working on the bot to help with the second stage (cleaning up the old category pages). There was a bug in Pywikipediabot which delayed me a few weeks, but it's now fixed, so when I can next spend a few hours with my laptop (probably 4 days from now) this is one of my first tasks. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 08:13, 16 July 2011 (PDT) --''Update'': been busy, but still hoping to get to this within the next couple of weeks. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 10:27, 2 August 2011 (PDT)
: Yes. There are people working hard on it. The technical details are quite difficult and they could use some additional help. Please contact [[User:Chriswaterguy]] if you know some great multilanguage wiki people that could help. In the mean time, I am making a temporary landing page at [[Ekopedia]]. Please feel free to edit with more direction. Thank you, --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] ([[User talk:Lonny|talk]])


:Related to this move, what should we do with {{tl|Browsetopic}} (I think the function is served by {{tl|topic header}} and {{tl|Newpageresource}}? These are templates from the days when we had a definite "topic category" template (i.e topic info on the category page).
== A Two-Stage, Oscillating Swingset Pump  ==
:I can easily modify or remove templates with my bot. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]]


::I finally got around to this - see [[#Big move of topic category pages|below.]]
By swinging in this 'swing/penduluum' the other end of the lever oscillates up and down.  
::I decided to be bold and remove {{tl|Browsetopic}} and {{tl|Newpageresource}}. Updated templates can be re-added as appropriate, but they didn't look right on article pages. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 12:02, 5 November 2011 (PDT)


== Best practice ==
This then operates a vertical rod which, with a simple piston air compressor (or water pump), stores compressed air in an insulated air scuba tank, or pumps water in an efficient and relaxing way.
About the phrase "best practice": there is a [[wikipedia:Best practice]] article <small>(unfortunately, that article itself does not reflect the best practice for writing articles on Wikipedia, as indicated by the message templates at the top)</small>. No [[Best practice]] article exists on {{SITENAME}} yet <small>(about the concept of best practices in sustainability and appropriate technology)</small>, nor an [[Appropedia:Best practice]] project page <small>(about the best practices in building {{SITENAME}} itself)</small>, but there is a [[:Category:Best practice]] and a [[Facebook best practice]]. I think everybody is, in one way or another, trying to find the best practice for whatever they do, so in a sense it might be a somewhat redundant [[wikipedia:buzzword|buzzword]]. On the other hand, when we encounter a problem for the first time, there is a tendency to get absorbed in trying to construct a solution from scratch, and we forget that potentially thousands or millions of other people may have faced the same problem before. When a problem affects many people or groups, presumably one of those entities has solved or is solving it better than anyone else. Sometimes the best practice is not obvious. When we reinvent wheels unnecessarily, and without knowledge of the best practice, we are unlikely to equal or exceed the best practice.
Complicating the picture, the best practice for one person or group may not be the best practice for another, when solving the "same" problem, because of their differing resources and constraints. (This is of course fundamental to the notion of appropriate technology.) Thus the search for best practice unavoidably involves defining the problem we face as completely and accurately as possible, including the resources available to us for solving the problem, and the constraints on applying them. However, when we deviate from the best practice, we should always do so consciously and with justification, rather than out of ignorance of what the best practice is. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 13:38, 15 July 2011 (PDT)


:Good points. I've added "Best practice" to [[Appropedia:About#Content on Appropedia]]. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 22:05, 20 July 2011 (PDT)
The heat from compression stays put, and gives more umPH to run two air pistons, which are located on-board the teeter-totter 'chariot'!  (Now stationary for water pumping.)


== Interesting small wikis ==
Then, off it goes with a thousand lb. load of goods to a destination. Truly a dual-purpose vehicle!


Prompted by a comment by Teratornis [[#User tools for spam fighting?|above]], I've been thinking about good small wikis. I agree it's hard to find good small wikis as they don't have the resources of the Wikimedia wikis, but here are some that I found interesting in various ways:
These two air pistons then power the wheels, to assist the runner/driver with getting easily around a festival area at 10mph cruising speed...with a thousand pounds of people!
* http://www.grassrootswiki.org - nice skin & front page. (Not active, though about half a year ago they organized a worthwhile meetup of development wikis, which I joined by phone.)
* [[Greenlivingpedia:|Greenlivingpedia]] - smaller than Appropedia, but with a high average quality of articles. Largely the work of one guy, Peter Campbell who I've met a few times as he's a fellow Australian. Not at the bleeding edge, but he keeps on top of the tech side.  
* http://www.richmondwiki.org/wiki - I came across their blog - looks like they keep up to date & understand the tech side well
* [[Wikia:|Wikia]] - the leading wiki farm/community of communities, have developed some social features & have clearly put thought into what gets people engaged. I have mixed feelings on the features - some I like, but mostly I need to look more closely at how they're used.
Fan wikis - there are a bunch of them, many on Wikia. One that impresses me is:
* http://battlestarwiki.org - nicely maintained, active wiki.


The fact that many of the successful smaller wikis revolve around tv shows or movies tells us something crucial - humans tend to engage based on fun, stories and shared passions. The brutal truth seems to be that we evolved to gossip more than we evolved to care for or environment, or for people outside our immediate group. But I don't want to focus on something I can't change, so I'm interested in how we can harness fun & stories, & channel our passions. But that another set of topics :). --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 11:03, 16 July 2011 (PDT)
So, the penduluum , that is in the 'Two-Stage Oscillating Lever' invention, now becomes a...children's swing air compressor/water pump!
:Yes, humans remain intensely interested in redecorating the ''Titanic'' even as they begin sliding down the listing deck. One sees the same thing on Wikipedia, with the detailed articles about every known footballer, anime character, and anything else that is useless to know. The vast majority of humans are oblivious to the fact that our fossil fuel habit is [http://www.skepticalscience.com/co2-rising-ten-times-faster-than-petm-extinction.html increasing the carbon dioxide content of the Earth's atmosphere at an even faster rate] than it increased leading to the [[wikipedia:Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum|Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum]] - the most catastrophic known period of natural climate change to hit the Earth during the Age of Mammals. If humans had any idea of how dire our situation is, we'd have all hands on deck working toward the needed solution, which is to figure how we are going to drive everyone's carbon footprint below two tonnes per year (or maybe less) as quickly as possible. It is abundantly clear that our [[wikipedia:evolutionary psychology|evolutionary psychology]] is still optimized for advancing our social prospects in the Pleistocene, not for coping with the consequences of our advanced technology. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 21:59, 16 July 2011 (PDT)
::There are a good number people who gather online to share ideas about tackling climate change. This tends to happen most on sites that cater to people's social wiring. The challenge for us to find ways to work with that, but make connections with knowledge resources to help make change. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 21:51, 20 July 2011 (PDT)


:The [http://wiki.cancer.org.au/australia/Main_Page Cancer Council Australia Wiki] is an interesting wiki. It uses Semantic forms, and clinicians have managed to fill out pages by themselves. It also has specific places within articles to invite comments - using extensions/tweaks developed by [[wikipedia:User:Werdna]] (who also develops the coming LiquidThreads 3.0 for the Wikimedia Foundation, among other things). The current policy is to have a comment section for each section of an article. Not that we'd want to copy that. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 18:33, 19 January 2012 (PST) ''edited description of Cancer Council Wiki. [[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 19:12, 30 January 2012 (PST)''
http://darinselby.1hwy.com/2stageswinglever03.html


[http://meatballwiki.org/wiki/ Meatball Wiki] and [http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WelcomeVisitors Portland Pattern Repository] are pioneer wikis using the UseModWiki engine, about programming and online communities - they're still maintained, and run on . --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 20:43, 9 June 2012 (PDT)
== Am I allowed to start pages in languages other than  English - Español - Deutsch - Français - Italiano - Português - Kiswahili ? ==


== Blocking Users of Tor ==
I want to develop articles in my native tongue, to reach out the locals. This would also give a platform for my language writings to focus on green technology, green ways etc. So am I allowed to simply write articles in my language? [[User:IKHazarika|IKHazarika]] ([[User talk:IKHazarika|talk]]) 00:44, 16 September 2015 (PDT)


I'm trying to come up with other ways of stopping spammers as ReCAPTCHA doesn't seem to have slowed them down at all. It's possible they are accessing Appropedia through Tor which we could potentially block. I'd like to know if I could get a list of the spammers IP addresses so that I could see if they are using Tor. Assuming they were though, what kind of blocking should be setup? The options are:
:Hi, IKHazarika. Yes, we welcome content in other languages. Please refer to [[Appropedia:Languages]]. --[[User:Ethan|Ethan]] ([[User talk:Ethan|talk]]) 02:08, 18 September 2015 (PDT)
* Prevent Anonymous edits
* Prevent Account creation
* Prevent Logged in edits
* Prevent Logged in edits for accounts younger than a set time period (eg: 1 week)


I think blocking account creation and anonymous edits would be a good idea. You could setup some sort of contact form should a new user want to edit via tor and create an account for them. --[[User:Tahnok|Tahnok]] 12:15, 16 July 2011 (PDT)
== Duplicate originals ==


:That looks good. For later: Preventing logged in edits might be useful too, but we could add that later. I think "prevent logged in edits" allows for exceptions, either for the account or the IP - so we can consider that if we're having a problem with logged in spammers.  
I've been going over the website with a fine-tooth comb looking for things that need to be cleaned up. Most issues I've found have trivial fixes, but here's one that's a little more complicated. Several original content pages dating back to 2006 have duplicate pages. In each case they have their own separate edit histories. See: http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=%28original%29&fulltext=Search . Duplicates for each can be found as both [[XYZ_(original)]] and [[Original:XYZ]]. I'd be glad to merge these articles, if I can get some guidance on the best way to do that. --[[User:Ethan|Ethan]] ([[User talk:Ethan|talk]]) 22:05, 26 September 2015 (PDT)


:I've just been reading these project pages on Wikipedia: [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Open proxies|Open proxies]] & [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Advice to users using Tor to bypass the Great Firewall|Advice to users using Tor to bypass the Great Firewall]] - found them helpful in understanding the issue & how Wikipedia deals with them. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 21:39, 16 July 2011 (PDT)
== Proposal for mass deletion ==
::I will set it up on the Dev wiki and then we can move it to live if all goes well? --10:56, 20 July 2011 (PDT)
:::Good plan.
:::I like it when we get extensions working that are used by the Wikimedia sites - proven in action, and we can expect them to work. Appreciate your work, Tahnok! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 20:35, 20 July 2011 (PDT)
::::I installed TorBlock and checked that it worked, but I've disabled it for now. By default anonymous editing and account creation are blocked when using Tor. --[[User:Tahnok|Tahnok]] 07:41, 24 July 2011 (PDT)


== Cardamom ==
There was a certain user who copied a lot of templates and other content over from Wikipedia about 2 1/2 years ago. Most to all of it seems to be unnecessary to Appropedia, at least at this stage in its development. For example, there are several templates related to news. While Philralph has been adding news to the relevant location pages on CAS pages, there's not multiple news stories coming up every day to make those templates usable. Also there's not a large enough userbase here to update them. Other templates are just outside of the purview of this wiki. Further, they're really cluttering up the category tree. Therefore, I'd like to go through and just get rid of the majority of it. There's probably a few things that might possibly be used in the future which could be shelved in the incubator, and I'm willing to go digging through it all. --[[User:Ethan|Ethan]] ([[User talk:Ethan|talk]]) 05:25, 30 September 2015 (PDT)
:I went ahead with this. There was at least one template that was deleted in error, so if anyone notices something that looks broken please inform me or another admin. I changed my mind about a news template (see below). --[[User:Ethan|Ethan]] ([[User talk:Ethan|talk]]) 02:32, 2 December 2015 (PST)


We have [[CARDOMOM]] and [[Cardomom (Practical Action Brief)]], both of which refer to their subject within their article bodies as "card'''''a'''''mom" rather than "card'''''o'''''mom". Wikipedia has a [[wikipedia:Cardamom|Cardamom]] article but no Cardomom article. I suggest [[wikipedia:WP:MOVE|moving]] the articles to what seems to be the correct spelling, but I'm asking here first in case I'm not seeing something, and since I wasn't previously familiar with the subject. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 13:57, 21 July 2011 (PDT)
== Porting from PermaWiki ==
:Ah, I love cardamom. Looks like ''cardomom'' is either a misspelling, a much rarer spelling, or correct in another language. Fair question, but I've gone ahead & moved it. The redirects can stay in case anyone uses the other spelling. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 00:37, 22 July 2011 (PDT)


== New anti-spam tool ==
I received Graham Burnett's blessing to port [[PermaWiki]]'s content here. He was actually surprised it hadn't been done already. Because of long-term interest in PermaWiki here, and both sites using [[CC-BY-SA]] I anticipate no roadblocks. I set up the infrastructure already; ported pages can be appended with '''<nowiki>{{attrib permawiki}}</nowiki>''', which will automatically place them in the PermaWiki category. The full list of mainspace pages can be found [http://permaculture.wikia.com/wiki/Special:AllPages here]. I'll get started on this in earnest once I finish porting the [[Permaculture.info]] content (shouldn't be long, once I resolve access issues). --[[User:Ethan|Ethan]] ([[User talk:Ethan|talk]]) 09:44, 5 October 2015 (PDT)


[[User:Tahnok]] and [[User:Lonny]] have installed a tool called AbuseFilter - thanks guys! That's a very flexible tool to let us match spam patterns in added text, and either flag them or stop them from being saved. (It's similar to our spam blacklist, but it matches anywhere in the text, not just the url.)
:Excellent, thank you! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] ([[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]) 18:12, 27 November 2015 (PST)


We don't have any filters yet, but we'll get to work in the next week, and then see if there are other spam patterns that need filtering. I'm hopefully the spam will drop off a fair bit after that.
== OpenStreetMap ==


Only admins can edit the filters, but anyone can [[Special:AbuseFilter|view them]] and their logs, and anyone can propose a new filter or changes to existing filters.
I'd like to propose a new feature: compatibility with OpenStreetMap. First, it's collaborative and open-licensed ([[CC-BY-SA]]), consistent with Appropedia. Second, (in my opinion) the map quality is often better than proprietary map services. More info here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/MediaWiki_extension
--[[User:Ethan|Ethan]] ([[User talk:Ethan|talk]]) 20:19, 25 October 2015 (PDT)


'''Notes for admins''':  
:Hi Ethan,
* let's start by [[mw:Extension:AbuseFilter#Abuse filter management|importing filters from Wikipedia]] - there are 426 there, so I suggest:
:We are working on a site upgrade as we speak. Once we are up to date, I would love to explore this extension. I love OpenStreetMap. Thanks, --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] ([[User talk:Lonny|talk]]) 20:01, 2 December 2015 (PST)
** we start with any that have more than 50,000 hits
** if in any doubt, set it to log but not prevent the edit.
--[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 21:15, 27 July 2011 (PDT)


== Original content policy ==
: [https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Wikivoyage:Mapmaking_Expedition Wikivoyage] has two types of map,  both derived from OSM. A "dynamic map" has OSM data overlaid with any WV listings (hotels, etc.) that include lat/long co-ords; almost every destination has one of these & there's a template to make inserting one easy. Some also have a "static map", user-created. [[User:Pashley|Pashley]] ([[User talk:Pashley|talk]]) 15:46, 17 February 2017 (PST)


Input requested from wiki geeks :-). (From anyone, really, but everyone else will probably be bored...)
== Felicity Tepper for admin ==


We have this page, addressing how we handle original pages that we have permission to use: [[Appropedia:Original content]]. We seem to be a bit stuck, and there are some details to be worked out. It would be great to have other perspectives.
I nominate {{user|Felicity Tepper}} for an [[A:admins|admin]] role. Felicity has been making many valuable contributions and also tagging spam pages for deletion.  


Now I'm wondering whether we even want the original versions... if they original exists somewhere already, should we link to that, or is there an advantage of having it here on Appropedia? Another possibility is to open all pages up to editing, and link to the permalink of an earlier version, when it was still "original." 
Felicity, do you accept? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] ([[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]])


In practice, I look at a category like {{cl|Beyond dams}} and it's a mess, with 2 versions of each original -  I think that's due to some half-executed plan that I can't remember, where we got stuck on a policy question half-way through. (Re naming... we made a separate namespace called "Original:", so if we do keep separate original pages, it makes sense to use that namespace. The pages ending in "(original)" need to be fixed.)
:I've been reading through the admin materials and links, to be sure of the responsibilities involved. If everyone else is happy for me to facilitate in this way, then I'd be happy to accept. [[User:Felicity Tepper|Felicity]] ([[User talk:Felicity Tepper|talk]]) 13:20, 28 November 2015 (PST)


Would be great to have a clear policy, so we can start cleaning these pages up. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 10:00, 28 July 2011 (PDT)
Any words of support, any questions or concerns? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] ([[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]) 18:09, 27 November 2015 (PST)
:I support! --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] ([[User talk:Lonny|talk]]) 18:24, 27 November 2015 (PST)


== Adminship nomination: Tahnok ==
:Me too! [[User:Philralph|Philralph]] ([[User talk:Philralph|talk]]) 02:42, 28 November 2015 (PST)


I nominate Tahnok for [[A:Administrators|adminship]].
:Support. Felicity has been adding a lot of great content and tagging spam. --[[User:Ethan|Ethan]] ([[User talk:Ethan|talk]]) 17:31, 28 November 2015 (PST)


Tahnok (aka Wesley) has proven to be level-headed and competent as our [[A:tech intern]],  making good progress on a number of tasks such as getting the dev site active, testing extensions, getting spam-fighting tools installed, and making a mobile skin which is nearly ready. He's also been marking spam, and if he were an admin he could delete it directly (as well as work directly with the AbuseFilter filters).
::Woohoo. Thank you [[User:Felicity Tepper|Felicity]], you are now an [[A:admins|admin]]! --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] ([[User talk:Lonny|talk]]) 19:41, 1 December 2015 (PST)


Wesley - I'm assuming here that you'll accept the nomination :-).
Thanks everyone, looking forward to helping out and continuing to learn. Cheers. [[User:Felicity Tepper|Felicity]] ([[User talk:Felicity Tepper|talk]]) 23:03, 1 December 2015 (PST)


(Note: I'm not following the exact [[A:Administrators/Process|process]] as for now, the Village Pump is the one place I know people will see this and comment.)
== Main page redesign proposal ==
 
Please place your endorsement or disagreement, and/or comment, below. We can close the vote in a week (or earlier if we're clearly going to have strong consensus). --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 10:22, 28 July 2011 (PDT)


* Strong support! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 10:22, 28 July 2011 (PDT)
I'd like to suggest some design changes for the front page. My draft redesign is [[User:Ethan/Main|here]]. There's two main things I'd like to see:  
* I support Tahnok for admin. --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] 10:52, 28 July 2011 (PDT)


1) Reduce size of header and announcements. Right now when I load the main page these two items take up all of the space that isn't dedicated to the top & side bars. I'm not very experienced in graphic design, but to my mind that's a waste of some valuable real estate.


:I would be more than honoured! --[[User:Tahnok|Tahnok]] 07:23, 31 July 2011 (PDT)
2) Add a news section. Phil has been adding news items to [[Community action for sustainability]] on a daily basis. I think bringing them to the front page, and putting them next to the more static content on the front page offers a nice balance. It would do a better job of highlighting the breadth and depth of material covered on Appropedia.


::Very good.
I think both of these would spur more interest and participation from visitors to the site. Note that my draft has some issues: the left and right columns can become unaligned depending on what which random selections load. The Highlighted Projects section would also need to be edited to fit the left column. --[[User:Ethan|Ethan]] ([[User talk:Ethan|talk]]) 21:34, 29 November 2015 (PST)
::I should explain how I see this nomination process. We're aiming for consensus, and if no one objects, we have consensus even if only three people endorse the candidate. (Here we have Lonny & me, plus [[User:Curtbeckmann]] mentioned his support to me in an email.) Since you've mainly worked with Lonny & I on tech stuff, some people won't be aware of your work yet. That's no problem... but if anyone else wants to show support by adding their name to the list above, that would be nice too. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 09:06, 31 July 2011 (PDT)
:::Thanks all. It is done. Wesley, welcome to adminship. See [[User_talk:Tahnok#Adminship]] for more. --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] 17:26, 16 August 2011 (PDT)


== Importing content from another wiki ==
:I'd love to see a redesign. I'll have a closer look at your draft later (getting to work now) but:
:* The part of the header that lists all the topic areas ("Appropriate technology • Construction • " etc) was an experiment, I think, and it isn't necessary as we have sidebar navigation and a search bar. We can remove it and see how that goes. In fact... {{done}}! (If that turns out to be unpopular, any admin can revert, here: [[MediaWiki:Sitenotice]].)
:* News section would be excellent - the continual activity that's been happening on Appropedia means that we can keep that fresh.
:Thanks! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] ([[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]) 14:42, 30 November 2015 (PST)


Hello everybody! I am a newb and I am so sorry if this question has already been answered. I looked around but could not see it, so here goes....
:This is looking good. Is there any way to bring the highlighted project higher. I feel like projects are the core of Appropedia and it would be cool to have it above the fold. Either way, I think it looks better as you have it and would be happy have you implement it. Eventually we will have staff for some awesome UX. In the mean time, I am glad that we can all make it better. While you are at it, can you:
*get rid of the links to friendfeed, identi.ca, and delicious at the bottom.
*add Pinterest - https://www.pinterest.com/appropedia/.
**{{done}} --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] ([[User talk:RichardF|talk]]) 07:06, 2 December 2015 (PST)
:Thanks! --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] ([[User talk:Lonny|talk]]) 18:24, 30 November 2015 (PST)


Is there a way to easily import the entire contents (or selected pages) from another wiki? We went and created www.bottleschools.com/wiki - and then we heard about Appropedia! I wouldn't mind copy-and-pasting all the pages one-by-one, but reuploading all the images too would be a pain!
I don't see a big conceptual difference between "Community action news" and "Hot topics / In the news." Perhaps the items can be combined into one section or one section with two parts. I put together a sample layout --> [[User:RichardF/Sandbox|here]] <-- to show how "Community action news" could be incorporated into the Main Page, while still keeping the "Highlighted project" near the top. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] ([[User talk:RichardF|talk]]) 06:43, 2 December 2015 (PST)


Can somebody help me? I have SSH access to the wiki's server so I can execute scripts or run MySQL queries to pull things out of the database, if that helps... Thank you all in advance for your help and patience! --[[User:Heenal|Heenal]] 16:57, 1 August 2011 (PDT)
:Hot Topics/In The News is more focused on the work of Appropedians, while Community Action News focuses on the work people are doing in communities around the world. Hot Topics/In The News is closer in content to the Appropedia blog. --[[User:Ethan|Ethan]] ([[User talk:Ethan|talk]]) 01:02, 4 December 2015 (PST)


: Hello! You can bulk export all your pages with Special:Export on your wiki, but it doesn't that you can do the same for Files... looks like you might have to do it by hand. This might be a great time for me to try and get Bulk Upload working... --[[User:Tahnok|Tahnok]] 19:19, 1 August 2011 (PDT)
::That sounds like a reason to keep them distinct but not necessarily separate in general locations on the page. If you all need any more help with page layouts, let me know. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] ([[User talk:RichardF|talk]]) 06:41, 4 December 2015 (PST)


:: Thankyou! I got [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:SpecialUploadLocal this extension] working on the Bottle Schools Wiki without too much trouble. Have you tried that one?  I was thinking that, alternatively, I could just put one page on Appropedia linking to the Bottle Schools Wiki in its current location.... But that wouldn't be the best solution, would it, to encourage participation? --[[User:Heenal|Heenal]] 02:42, 2 August 2011 (PDT)
Hi all, it'd be good to take up [[User:Ethan|Ethan]]'s suggestion of getting some Community Action News into the main page. [[User:RichardF|RichardF]]'s general locations on the page looks good to me, but there seemed too much text on one band (row). A way round this might be to incorporate Selected Quote into one of the columns (for me adds to readability) example [[User:Philralph/sandbox|here]]. What do you all think? [[User:Philralph|Philralph]] ([[User talk:Philralph|talk]]) 10:52, 7 January 2016 (PST)
*{{done}} --[[User:Philralph|Philralph]] ([[User talk:Philralph|talk]]) 08:26, 20 January 2016 (PST)


:::Hi Heenal, glad you found us - great to have you here.
== Nominating Philralph for admin ==
:::You're very welcome to either import your wiki or link to it. There are some advantages to importing it: more participation, as you say; more visibility; more interaction with a community that shares an interest in appropriate technology, development and education. In terms of workload - importing (with files) will be more work upfront, but will free you from managing the wiki in future, and allow you to focus on your project. (Or, if you want to check our [https://secure.bettermeans.com/projects/181/dashboard tech work] and lend a hand, that's an opportunity for team work, building a single excellent wiki together.)
:::Note you can still allow editing from your own site, of particular pages in Appropedia, by using our API. (Not sure of the details, but it's definitely possible.) Don't worry about that now, though - I'm getting ahead of myself.
:::Re how to import... we've merged wikis several times, but I didn't do any of the tech side, and we haven't documented the whole process (tsk tsk...). There is a way to import files via the server, and the the SpecialUploadLocal might help with that.
:::For the text, we have this instruction page: [[Appropedia:Importing wiki pages]] - that explains a process which very carefully avoids misattribution (i.e. if different people have the same username on each wiki). If someone has the same username on each wiki, no problem - otherwise, the xml file should be edited (quick search-and-replace) before importing.
:::One final thing - the license on your wiki is a non-commercial license, which is incompatible. Would it be possible to ask all the contributors to your wiki to make a note somewhere (here, on a new wiki page, or by email) that they're happy for their contributions to be relicensed under Appropedia's [[CC-by-sa]] license? The same applies to images, if they have a different source.
:::I hope I'm not being too pedantic :-). It's actually not that much work, and we can work together to get it done.
:::Thanks --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 10:15, 2 August 2011 (PDT)


== Organizations and usernames ==
I nominate {{user|Philralph}} for an [[A:admins|admin]] role. Philralph has been very active, especially in building the many, many pages on sustainable community action..


I just noticed that Wikipedia has a [[Wikipedia:Project:Username policy#Company/group names|policy of not allowing organization names as usernames]]. I think this makes sense - it avoids any potential problems of an individual seeming to represent an organization, and it later turning out that they didn't represent an official position of the organization.
Philralph, do you accept? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] ([[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]])
Using an individual username might also help people to relate to Appropedia as individuals, and feel a part of the community.


What say we all...? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 12:28, 5 August 2011 (PDT)
::Yes, thank you --[[User:Philralph|Philralph]] ([[User talk:Philralph|talk]]) 07:16, 2 December 2015 (PST)


== Nice easy help pages ==
:I second that nomination! --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] ([[User talk:Lonny|talk]]) 19:46, 1 December 2015 (PST)
:Absolutely! I thought he was already! [[User:Felicity Tepper|Felicity]] ([[User talk:Felicity Tepper|talk]]) 23:04, 1 December 2015 (PST)
::I, too, was surprised when I realized he wasn't. I '''support''', of course. --[[User:Ethan|Ethan]] ([[User talk:Ethan|talk]]) 02:16, 2 December 2015 (PST)


I'm running a workshop with a few lecturers at the University of Indonesia in 4 days time, about using wikis in education. At least a couple from the sociology department are interested in using Appropedia for sustainability-related student projects, but they haven't used wikis before. It's a good opportunity - to have students working with Appropedia, and to work on my explanations.
:::Hi Phil,
:::Congratulations and thank you! You are now an [[A:admins|admin]]. Please see the fledgling [[Appropedia:Guidelines for administrators]] for more info. There should be more tools available to all the admins at [[Special:SpecialPages]] as well. --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] ([[User talk:Lonny|talk]]) 19:56, 2 December 2015 (PST)


From working with one of the lecturers, I've realized how important it is to have the answers to basic questions easily accessible. Any improvements to our help pages will help new editors to feel confident, and stick around- would really appreciate any help working on this.
::::Thanks all --[[User:Philralph|Philralph]] ([[User talk:Philralph|talk]]) 23:53, 2 December 2015 (PST)


For a start, I just worked out how to make a search box for help pages, so I've added that to the top of [[Help:Editing]]. (That little bit of wiki markup can be adapted for any namespace or set of namespaces.)  
== Feedback on support page please. (New recurring donation option.) ==


Of course, we can give very brief explanations, and link to a more detailed page elsewhere. Wikipedia has detail (sometimes a mind-numbing amount of detail, but it's a great resource) and [[WikiEducator:|WikiEducator]] has some nice tutorials. (For the workshop I'm doing, I'll point them to the Indonesian Wikipedia's help pages, in their native tongue, but they speak English as well.)  
Please check our donate page, clicking from the left sidebar: Support -> Donate. (I'm not linking it here - too easy for someone to insert scam or phishing links in a wiki page.)


I've added a recurring donation option. The page now needs a couple of things, and I'd love suggestions:
* A small number of engaging images from the wiki, illustrating a range of what we do - e.g. energy, water, building.
* More engaging text, for a diversity of potential donors.


''Technical note 1'': I've changed the [[MediaWiki:Helppage|system default helppage]] from [[Help:Contents]] to [[Help:Editing]]. The Contents page redirected there anyway - if it becomes an actual page, the default can be changed back.)  
Thanks! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] ([[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]) 14:56, 6 December 2015 (PST)


''Technical note 2'': A small confusing detail with the search engine at [[Help:Editing]] is that I've added the "Appropedia" namespace as an option, but to a newbie it'll look like it's an option to search Appropedia's mainspace articles. I tried the aliases for the namespace (A: and Project:) but they don't work with inputbox. Something needs to change - remove it? Make it checked by default? Spend days rewriting the code for inputbox? ;-) --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 03:30, 7 August 2011 (PDT)
:Hi Chris, some pics from CASwiki, which could be balanced by pics of other stuff e.g. energy, water, building, etc:
<gallery>
File:Vélo parade - Vélorution - bike critical mass.JPG
File:2009 BrooksPark SanFrancisco 3899032980.jpg
File:KOCIS Korea Jongno Tree 09 (8633200009).jpg
File:South Carolina 1.jpg
File:Maza Wanawake Kwanza Growers Association (1).jpg
</gallery>


:Personally, I would totally eliminate that section and the search box anywhere it's located, e.g., the help page and the category page. I would create a "See also" section at the bottom of the page and add a link to [[:Category:Appropedia help]].  The entire category has only 43 pages.  The odds of a newbie guessing the name of a useful help page are slim to none.  I would strengthen Appropedia's content browsing features before I worry too much about its content searching capabilities. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 12:01, 7 August 2011 (PDT)
:[[User:Philralph|Philralph]] ([[User talk:Philralph|talk]]) 09:31, 11 December 2015 (PST)


::Improving the "See also" sections is good. But I don't see the reasoning for dropping the search box. Some people tend to navigate by available structure (categories, links) and others tend to navigate by search. Guessing a pagename isn't required - they just have to narrow down the pages by a keyword or two. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 13:43, 7 August 2011 (PDT)
::Thanks Phil.  
:::Do we have any actual data on the search keywords guessed by new users when they need to find a help page? Search boxes seem to be a near-universal Web site feature these days, so presumably they benefit enough people to justify the space they take up. If we adopt the [[wikipedia:First, do no harm|First, do no harm]] principle, we would not remove the search box merely because it is useless for some users. We would need some evidence that it is harming them. If a user cannot find what they are looking for, that only wastes a little of the user's time. For harm to result, the user would have to stumble on a search result that actually harmed them, for example by causing them to get the really wrong idea about what they should do. I.e. they would have to be incapable of recognizing and ignoring irrelevant search results.
::Since I posted, I had the thought that I should use images that are public domain or that we have copyright for, so we can just have the images, without attribution links. Donation pages shouldn't have unneeded links, which are opportunities for the reader to get distracted before donating :-). Anyway, I'll look for public domain images - but we could use these images elsewhere. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] ([[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]) 16:53, 12 December 2015 (PST)
:::A related digression: one problem with editing on wikis is that a new user needs to master a large-ish set of concepts that are different than what most people have seen before. The possible approaches to learning include:
:::* Dive directly into editing, and try to learn each new concept as the need for it becomes apparent. That is basically the wiki way.
:::** Pros: users might quickly see some preliminary, personally relevant results, thus providing a psychological reward.
:::** Cons: easy to get frustrated by the large number of "[[wikipedia:There are known knowns|known unknowns]]" (things the new user does not know and realizes he or she needs to know them) and (even worse) the "unknown unknowns" (things the new user needs to know and is not aware of needing to know them). Only a small percentage of the population is cognitively equipped to self-educate; the people who are best at coping with unstructured, unfamiliar complexity tend to have high IQs.
:::* March through a structured education course, learning most of the fundamentals before attempting to edit independently at length. For example by listening to an instructor teaching from a book such as [[wikipedia:WP:TMM]].
:::** Pros: has the potential to work better for a much larger percentage of the population; this is why we pay for formal schooling instead of expecting most people to figure everything out on their own. Could yield editors who are more likely to at least be aware of what all the important points and gotchas are, without having to learn everything by trial and error.
:::** Cons: slower than just diving in and trying stuff. New editor must plow through material seeming to have no immediately obvious personal relevance, before getting to do whatever motivated them to look at wikis in the first place. Potentially expensive if live human instructors are used. Not the wiki way as we have come to know it, although that's merely an [[wikipedia:Appeal to tradition|appeal to tradition]].
:::Educating new users is a problem on all wikis. Wikipedia (perhaps inadvertently) solves the problem by "skimming" the tiny minority of people who are cognitively equipped to self-educate by reading manuals on their own. By having such a large potential number of editors, due to its extremely broad topic coverage, Wikipedia only needs to recruit a tiny percentage of people to edit. Smaller wikis having limited topical or geographical focus have to be editable by a larger percentage of their smaller pools of potential editors, if they are to recruit sufficiently large editing communities to be viable. This is a very hard problem; it means Appropedia ideally needs to be better at educating new users than Wikipedia is. That may be possible, but I don't know how. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 13:22, 15 August 2011 (PDT)


::::"Do we have any actual data on the search keywords guessed by new users when they need to find a help page?" - excellent suggestion. Turns out that Google Analytics gives us some data on searches, but not specifically for help pages, and it "does not include searches that find a page immediately." We could share that data (I could dig it out if it's a priority) but I think it might be much more useful to get an extension that lets us [http://bettermeans.com/issues/8077 check records of searches made by site visitors].
== CC-BY-SA logo links to GNU FDL license ==
::::Comments on learning to wiki - (can we make that a verb ? :-) )...
::::* The structured approach is excellent where a there's a place that a structure can be implemented, e.g. in [[A:service learning]], where students learn the basics, and continue to learn during their course.
::::* Either with structure or diving in, some persistence (and/or inclination/geekiness) is required. Motivation is critical to whether people stick around long enough to learn. Feeling connected to the community and interested in what's happening on the site makes a big difference. I'm keen to see a few things happening to help people stay connected, including a newsletter and (as discussed in the past) a forum within the wiki. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 03:16, 18 August 2011 (PDT)


:::::The [http://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Bookshelf Wikimedia Bookshelf] is a project to create teaching and promotion materials for their projects. I think they are all CC-BY-SA licensed so we should be able to adapt them to suit our needs. Indonesian Wikipedia is quite active so it might be possible to find someone there who would help with some training. --[[User:Joe Raftery|Joe Raftery]] 14:42, 2 September 2011 (PDT)
Just thought I'd point out that the CC-BY-SA logo at the bottom right corner of each page links to the GNU FDL license instead of the CC license. --[[User:Hairless Wookie|Hairless Wookie]] ([[User talk:Hairless Wookie|talk]]) 01:00, 7 January 2016 (PST)


::::::Thanks Joe - a fantastic resource, that I was unaware of. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 11:04, 3 September 2011 (PDT)
:Woops – thanks!


== Solar Bottle Light ==
:Note for a tech admin: The guide to editing the footer is at [[mw:Manual:Footer]]. I guess we're still on [http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/ CC Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported], but just FYI there is now [http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/ CC Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International] (but I haven't read up on the significance of the update). --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] ([[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]) 03:45, 7 January 2016 (PST)


I have stumbled over this nice project a couple of times, but still not figure out how to write the article or how to categorize it on Appropedia. Maybe someone could help and do it?
== Tool for converting formatted text to wiki markup ==


http://isanglitrongliwanag.org/
For those that aren't aware, we have a tool here which is useful if you have a document or web page that you are converting to a wiki page. (Of course, be sure that you have permission, and give attribution as appropriate).  


It is non-electric, but a solar project.
The tool: [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=Appropedia:Wikedbox&action=edit Wikedbox]. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] ([[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]) 04:32, 8 January 2016 (PST)
It is actually named Solar Bottle Bulb, and the technology were developed at MIT


And I see there is a bottle LED light project here, so I guess there is a need to include more of these smart low-technology descriptions.
== A few things noticed since the update ==


--[[User:Yeahvle|Yeahvle]] 23:16, 8 August 2011 (PDT)
I wanted to mention a few things this non-techie editor has noticed since the site was updated:


== Portal views and Template:Bar box ==
*I often see what I think are the announcements at the bottom of the front page, misaligned and where they shouldn’t be. I can upload a screenshot if nobody else is seeing this.
*The blog section on the front page appears to be blank.
*I can’t access Special Pages at all. When I go to http://www.appropedia.org/Special:SpecialPages and click on any of these pages, the response I get is this: The following data is cached and may not be up to date. A maximum of 1,000 results are available in the cache.  There are no results for this report.
*As I add categories to uncategorised articles, the total article count seems to be going backwards. I am not sure why this is happening.


<div style="float:right">{{Appropedia:Portals/Views}}</div>
I thought I’d best pass these things on. Thanks for considering them. [[User:Felicity Tepper|Felicity]] ([[User talk:Felicity Tepper|talk]]) 02:02, 12 January 2016 (PST)


The <s>following</s> chart to the right shows the numbers of views for many Appropedia portals, those listed on {{tl|Portals navbar}}. It was added to [[Appropedia:Portals#Portal views]].
:Whoa – thank you for noticing those changes, and letting us know. I'm not in charge of tech things, but we do have a developer doing a few things. Let's see what Lonny says. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] ([[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]) 05:58, 12 January 2016 (PST)


The chart was created using {{tl|Bar box}} added by {{user|Teratornis}}. This template could come in handy for articles ''and'' Appropedia usage summaries. Thanks! --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 20:14, 13 August 2011 (PDT)
:Thanks Chris, happy that it's on the radar. [[User:Felicity Tepper|Felicity]] ([[User talk:Felicity Tepper|talk]]) 00:40, 13 January 2016 (PST)


To see how they played out, I added all portals to the chart. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 14:26, 14 August 2011 (PDT)
:: Felicity's points 1&2 are the same bug. The blog section list doesn't conform to proper formatting. I'm guessing it's a conflict of the new CSS with JS. The weird thing is sometimes if you reload it *does* format correctly. --[[User:Ethan|Ethan]] ([[User talk:Ethan|talk]]) 21:27, 21 February 2016 (PST)
:: This falls under "feature, not a bug": since the update any page you edit will have the watch box checked (ticked) by default. Can we turn that off? --[[User:Ethan|Ethan]] ([[User talk:Ethan|talk]]) 19:43, 25 February 2016 (PST)


:That's a very cool graphic - thanks to everyone involved! (KVDP for suggesting the Bar box, Teratornis for importing it, & RichardF for all the work on portals and sharing this graphic here.) --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 22:32, 14 August 2011 (PDT)
== Appropedia in Google's definitions boxes! Conventional farming needs work ==


I updated the chart to show the most recent [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=Appropedia:Portals/Views&oldid=180655 portal page views for a week]. [[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 07:16, 21 August 2011 (PDT)
If you search for ''how to measure stream flow'' or ''conventional farming'' on Google, the definition box now comes from Appropedia. Confirmed in multiple countries. Great stuff... except that our [[conventional farming]] isn't as good as it could be.


== Spam patterns ==
(Thanks to [[User:Lonny|Lonny]] for discovering this!) --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] ([[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]) 14:47, 31 January 2016 (PST)


I wanted to make notes somewhere about spam patterns, so I started [[Appropedia:Anti-spam and anti-vandalism/patterns]]. I haven't figured out [[Special:AbuseFilter]] yet, but when Tahnok has some time I'm looking forward to getting his help and clamping down on the recent spam. If anyone else wants to lend a hand with the filters, please LMK.
: Nice to learn this, thanks for the update. It's great to learn about increasing traction and responsiveness, keep up the great work everyone. :) [[User:Felicity Tepper|Felicity]] ([[User talk:Felicity Tepper|talk]]) 02:37, 2 February 2016 (PST)


Admins - if you notice anything like a pattern in spam when you delete it, please note it on the patterns page linked above. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 02:36, 18 August 2011 (PDT)
== permaculture content ready for "prime time"? ==


:I am finally done my exam and my other project, so I will have to some time work on AbuseFilters now! --[[User:Tahnok|Tahnok]] 17:16, 21 August 2011 (PDT)
I was going to wait until I finished porting content from [[PermaWiki]] to do this, but there was a recent [https://www.reddit.com/r/Permaculture/comments/46473m/if_you_dont_want_open_source_permaculture_fuck_you/ heated conversation] about open-source permaculture. I was a little disappointed that our broadest permaculture pages didn't get mentioned, though some other sections of Appropedia were referenced. So I went ahead and added permaculture to the main page header, the sidebar and the main page selected portals (which may need to wait for a cronjob or cache refresh to appear?). I hope to raise the profile of Appropedia as permaculture wiki, because it is the only active one out there (also the Appropedia Foundation is a more trustworthy steward of this information than Wikia). If anyone objects, we can reverse these changes. --[[User:Ethan|Ethan]] ([[User talk:Ethan|talk]]) 21:38, 27 February 2016 (PST)
::Congratulations! Thanks, --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] 09:55, 22 August 2011 (PDT)


:::Glad to have you back! Hope your exam and project went well. I'm back myself, from a couple of distractions, so I'll also have a bit more time for Appropedia. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 12:22, 24 August 2011 (PDT)
:Thanks Ethan, looks good.
:We have a number of great content areas, so I'm wondering how best dto display it all... might be something to ask a MediaWiki-friendly web designer. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] ([[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]) 06:16, 12 March 2016 (PST)


:::For interested parties, the AbuseFilter currently logs edits that match one of the rules. You can find that log at [[Special:AbuseLog]] --[[User:Tahnok|Tahnok]] 13:06, 26 August 2011 (PDT)
== Support needed to keep Appropedia alive and kicking goals ==


::::Looking good - I think the hidden link filter for new users could go live. (A well-established user might very rarely have a reason - I put a hidden in [[MediaWiki:Copyright]] - that might be the only non-spam use of a hidden link on the wiki though.)
I've worked out how to let people make a recurring monthly donation to the Appropedia Foundation, to keep Appropedia growing and doing awesome things. If you're in a position to support us, please click "[http://blogs.appropedia.org/support-appropedia Donate]" in the sidebar. Thanks! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] ([[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]) 18:29, 16 March 2016 (PDT)


== Biofuel Content Initiative ==
:Are Appropedia Foundation accounts available somewhere? Would it be possible to have a direct link to them from the "[http://blogs.appropedia.org/support-appropedia Donate]" page? [[User:Philralph|Philralph]] ([[User talk:Philralph|talk]]) 02:20, 18 March 2016 (PDT)


The [[Appropedia:Content Initiatives/Biofuel|Biofuel Content Initiative]] is about to take a step forward. I've just been chatting with Shahid, aka [[User:ShaMod]], who is interested in working on this Initiative, focusing on microbial biofuel. He found it (and Appropedia) by Googling for ''volunteer biofuel''. Welcome Shahid!
::No, but I'd support making them available. Maybe we need to look at equivalent organisations (e.g. the Wikimedia Foundation) to help us with out whether there are particular things we need to keep confidential. I'm neither a lawyer nor an accountant.
:::I'll pass this suggestion on to the board. Thanks. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] ([[User talk:Chriswaterguy|talk]]) 04:34, 18 March 2016 (PDT)
::::'''Donation error''' PayPal has told me twice:
<code>Sorry — your last action could not be completed
Error Message


Let's see if we can find some more people interested in this area, to get some real activity and teamwork on this important area. I'll do some tweeting, blogging, etc, and invite others too, as well.
Your request failed due to technical difficulties.Please try again after some time.</code>
::::Just so you know. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 16:20, 3 July 2016 (PDT)


Btw, I have a habit of choosing pagenames then deciding later that they suck, and moving them... then sometimes even changing my mind yet agoin... the great thing about a wiki is that this hardly matters at all! Speaking of that [[Appropedia:Content Initiatives/Biofuel]] now strikes me as clunky, even though it's a natural structure for those pages... so I'm thinking [[Appropedia:Biofuel Content Initiative]] is a better form for such pages, and it'll look nicer when we're drumming up publicity for these initiatives. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 07:47, 25 August 2011 (PDT)
Following on from my earlier comments: could Appropedia make use of [https://opencollective.com/ open collective]? - "A group of people with a shared mission that operates in full transparency"? Might this sort of thing be useful even if used to meet some, not necessarily all, of Appropedia's objectives, at first? [[User:Philralph|Philralph]] ([[User talk:Philralph|talk]]) 10:49, 19 April 2017 (PDT)


== Copyediting class at work ==
:for more see eg: Open Collectives: transforming our cities from the bottom-up, Apr 11: [http://magazine.ouishare.net/2017/04/open-collectives-transforming-our-cities-from-the-bottom-up/ @OuiShare] and [http://brusselstogether.org/ BrusselsTogether], "lets you create a virtual association so that you can get started in no time and focus on what you want to do to improve Brussels" - though there may be better examples in the context of Appropedia, [[User:Philralph|Philralph]] ([[User talk:Philralph|talk]]) 11:10, 19 April 2017 (PDT)


Just a heads-up - there's a copyediting class working on Appropedia at the moment, led by [[User:Prstn]], going through {{cl|Articles in need of copyediting}} (i.e. pages marked with {{tl|copyedit}}).
== New related wiki ==


If you know of pages that need copyediting - tag 'em now! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 09:36, 30 August 2011 (PDT)
'''Waterpedia''' See https://waterpedia.wiki/wpw/index.php/Waterpedia:About I figured this community and that one can work together. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 16:15, 3 July 2016 (PDT)


== Ekopedia down ==


== CAT - Center for Alternative Technology in Wales ==
'''See [http://ekopedia.org/ here]''' I get a 404 message:
<code>


this organisation has been running since the 70's ( when appropriate still meant very alternative) and runs courses for school visits to full Graduate programs
Page not found (404)
http://content.cat.org.uk/index.php/about-cat-what-do-we-do
Request Method: GET
Request URL: http://ekopedia.org/


you may wish to contact them as there are course spots avaliable for start still I think in September (12th) for a one year Msc where accom and food is provided within the program
Using the URLconf defined in odc.urls, Django tried these URL patterns, in this order:


http://info.cat.org.uk/contact
    ^admin/
    ^odc/(?P<url>.*)/$ [name='odc']
    ^_odc/(?P<url>.*)/$ [name='odc']
    ^__odc/(?P<url>.*)/$ [name='odc']
    ^bloquery_post/ [name='bloquery_post']
    ^fiches/$
    ^vol/(?P<ht>.+)/$ [name='vol']
    ^vol2/$ [name='vol2']
    ^show/(?P<mo>.+)/$ [name='show']
    ^show_all/(?P<mo>.+)/$ [name='show_all']
    ^templ/(?P<mo>.+)/$ [name='templ']
    ^mod/(w{0,50}) [name='mod']
    ^web_editor/attachment/add/$ [name='docs']
    ^web/dataset/call_kwx$ [name='docs']
    ^website/
    ^theme_enark/
    ^web/
    ^web_editor/
    ^builder/
    ^theme_common/
    ^docs_list/$ [name='docs_list']
    ^docs_upload/$ [name='doc_add_form']
    ^doc_erase/(?P<name>.*)/$ [name='doc_erase']
    ^static/website/translations/$ [name='noslash']
    ^(?P<url>.*)/$ [name='url']
    ^media\/(?P<path>.*)$


they have for the first time appointed someone to do some marketing for them (not me) and they might be willing to add a page or two to your site.
The current URL, , didn't match any of these.


As this is the oldest dedicated renewable and sustainable community in the Uk and has been running courses in this area for some decades now you may wish to spread the word.
You're seeing this error because you have DEBUG = True in your Django settings file. Change that to False, and Django will display a standard 404 page.
cheers {{unsigned|Ecofitter|30 August 2011}}
</code>
Does anyone know what's up? The same thing happens at en.ekopedia. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 20:42, 10 July 2016 (PDT)
: The Ekopedia and Appropedia teams are working together on the problem, but could use more help from people experienced in database and wiki management. --[[User:Ethan|Ethan]] ([[User talk:Ethan|talk]]) 23:06, 21 July 2016 (PDT)


:Hi Ecofitter. I'd been in touch with them before and they seemed to be in transition (or their site was) but sounds like a good time to get back in touch with them. Thanks! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 20:00, 30 August 2011 (PDT)
== Spam and Captchas ==


::Here's a link to a page for these guys [[Centre for Alternative Technology]] that I created last December. I have visited a couple of times and I can confirm it is great place and well worth a visit just to see all the cool stuff they have put into operation there. --[[User:Joe Raftery|Joe Raftery]] 14:24, 2 September 2011 (PDT)
Hello Intrepid Appropedians!


:::Cool Joe, thanks.  
Thank you for your patience with our Captchas recently. We know that they had become too arduous and buggy. We have upgraded our captcha based spam abatement significantly. We hope your experience is also significantly enhanced! Please let us know if you have any problems editing, joining, posting, etc.
:::If anyone from the Appropedia community is going there soon - Joe, James Gourlay, Ecofitter? - I wonder if you could have a talk with the good people of CAT about Appropedia and the possibility of sharing their work here? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 05:37, 6 September 2011 (PDT)


== Galleries ==
Thanks again, --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] ([[User talk:Lonny|talk]]) 15:05, 21 September 2016 (PDT)
:Great job! Very minimal spam is making it through now. --[[User:Ethan|Ethan]] ([[User talk:Ethan|talk]]) 22:48, 25 February 2017 (PST)


Trying to work out how to have good-looking galleries on Appropedia...
== Saying Hi ==


Using the <nowiki><gallery></nowiki> tag (see [[Help:Images#Galleries]]) is easy and elegant, but it creates small images - smaller than a standalone "thumb" image - surrounded by a lot of padding in each cell.
Hi just introducing myself. I have some years experience on Wikipedia, here I'm interested in studying and working on many topics related to off grid + self sufficient homesteading. If anyone wants to collaborate on such topics let me know. Peace. [[User:Moribund|Moribund]] ([[User talk:Moribund|talk]]) 10:14, 17 February 2017 (PST)


On the [[Bowline knot]] page, the [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=Bowline_knot&oldid=32399 old version with gallery tag] made images too small to see the knots clearly, so I replaced it with a simple table of thumb-sized images, [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=Bowline_knot&oldid=182261 here].  
:Hi Moribund,
:Here's the page in [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=Bowline_knot&oldid=182878 Gallery template version (0 lines)]. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 14:09, 10 September 2011 (PDT)
:Great to meet you. Thanks for your contributions!
::I added a [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=Template:Gallery/aux&curid=36296&diff=182963&oldid=182917 Gallery/aux test] to check for "lines=0" so that images galleries without text look a little cleaner, such as at this [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=Bowline_knot&oldid=182878 Bowline knot] example. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 09:24, 11 September 2011 (PDT)
:--[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] ([[User talk:Lonny|talk]]) 11:24, 17 February 2017 (PST)


Questions:
::Welcome Moribund. Please do share your knowledge and let us know if you've any questions. Your interests are perfect for here. [[User:Felicity Tepper|Felicity]] ([[User talk:Felicity Tepper|talk]]) 15:13, 17 February 2017 (PST)
* What's the best look for an image? One of the above [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=Bowline_knot&oldid=32399 old version with gallery tag], or [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=Bowline_knot&oldid=182261 simple table]), somewhere in between the two, or something different again?
* Once we've decided exactly what we want, if we do want something different from the gallery we have now... is it possible to adjust or hack the gallery tag defaults somehow to give us what we want? Note that the available settings are very limited - e.g. we can make bigger images, but they still have a lot of padding - see the [[wikipedia:Wikipedia:Gallery tag#Syntax|gallery tag syntax guide on Wikipedia]]. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 05:31, 6 September 2011 (PDT)


:If you wanted to have more flexibility with an image gallery, wouldn't it be easier to port over [[Wikipedia:Template:Gallery]] and parameterize things like padding in that template?  [[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 17:23, 9 September 2011 (PDT)
::Welcome! Good contributions so far. Nice to have someone who's experienced with natural construction. --[[User:Ethan|Ethan]] ([[User talk:Ethan|talk]]) 00:24, 20 February 2017 (PST)
:::Hi all and thanks for welcome. Unfortunately no practical experience of natural construction, but this should change soon =)
:::Let me know if anyone wants to collaborate on any topics. [[User:Moribund|Moribund]] ([[User talk:Moribund|talk]]) 14:53, 22 February 2017 (PST)


::Here's a quick look at the gallery tag changed to the gallery template from the projects portal.
== Appropriateness ==
::[http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=Portal:Projects/Gallery&oldid=179871 gallery tag] --> [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=User:RichardF/Sandbox&oldid=182821 gallery template] --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 18:04, 9 September 2011 (PDT)


:::What the heck?  I just went ahead and added it. {{tl|Gallery}} :-)  --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 18:58, 9 September 2011 (PDT)
One area on this wiki that could really use some development is [[appropriate]]ness. I don't fault Appropedia for not elaborating it clearly, since this is a wider issue in the permaculture, alternative building and possibly also the appropriate tech communities. I'm sure we can all think of instances of people becoming enamored with a certain technique or technology without giving due consideration to how well it would fit into the specific contexts. What I propose we do:  
# Further develop the general notion of appropriateness across all sustainability disciplines. The [[context]] article is a good start.
# Note the in/appropriateness of specific techs in various contexts, including possible modifications. Perhaps we should add a recurring section for context considerations to specific tech articles.
--[[User:Ethan|Ethan]] ([[User talk:Ethan|talk]]) 20:01, 25 February 2017 (PST)
I should add that this information/ approach permeates Appropedia. What I'd like to do it bring it to the fore. --[[User:Ethan|Ethan]] ([[User talk:Ethan|talk]]) 20:10, 25 February 2017 (PST)


::::Nice, thanks! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 02:21, 10 September 2011 (PDT)
:Thank you Ethan. I appreciate your points and vision. I think that it is a common problem, at least for me, to forget to bring to the forefront the water in which we swim. I am excited to see your efforts in this direction!
:PS Some day, I would like to build some Human Centered Design content and make the connection between empathy and appropriateness.
:Thanks again, --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] ([[User talk:Lonny|talk]]) 22:05, 25 February 2017 (PST)


:::::Also, something I like about {{tl|Gallery}} is that it's really just one long row of pictures, so big galleries always fit the available screen width, which is not the case for the version of the <nowiki><gallery></nowiki> tag here.  Chris, do you still want the template's padding, and/or anything else, to be converted to a parameter? --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 09:37, 10 September 2011 (PDT)
== Fab labs ==


I parameterized the image padding at a default 5px, the same as the text padding.  The example shows all the currently available parameters, with the padding at the default setting.
An intriguing new model of production. Anyone encountered one of these yet?


<pre>{{Gallery
https://www.reddit.com/r/Permaculture/comments/6eb8hy/i_want_to_introduce_you_all_to_an_emerging_idea/
|title=Projects gallery
<small>—The preceding [[Help:Signatures|comment]] was added by [[User:Ethan|Ethan]] ([[User talk:Ethan|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Ethan|contribs]])  04:57, 1 June 2017‎ </small>
|width=180
|height=135
|padding=5
|lines=4
|align=center
|File:AEFfill.jpg| [[AEF greywater]]: Recreating a failing greywater marsh at the Arcata Educational Farm.
|File:Aleiha_dish.jpg| [[Aleiha's parabolic solar cooker]]: A very hot parabolic solar cooker.
|File:IMG_6743.JPG| [[Argentina photovoltaic]]: A small photovoltaic system for a [[natural building]]/permaculture institute in Central Argentina.
}}</pre>


{{Gallery
:Hi Ethan, I love fab labs and have contacts with a few engaged fab lab'ers over the past decade. Definitely cool. --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] ([[User talk:Lonny|talk]]) 12:01, 16 June 2017 (PDT)
|title=Projects gallery
|width=180
|height=135
|padding=5
|lines=4
|align=center
|File:AEFfill.jpg| [[AEF greywater]]: Recreating a failing greywater marsh at the Arcata Educational Farm.
|File:Aleiha_dish.jpg| [[Aleiha's parabolic solar cooker]]: A very hot parabolic solar cooker.
|File:IMG_6743.JPG| [[Argentina photovoltaic]]: A small photovoltaic system for a [[natural building]]/permaculture institute in Central Argentina.
}}


--[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 18:04, 10 September 2011 (PDT)
== RAIN archive ==


:It looks like "padding=5" can be left out, unless the user wants a different padding. Nice - keeps it simple.  
A digital archive of back issues of RAIN magazine is now available here: http://pdxscholar.library.pdx.edu/rain_japt/
:I really like the look of this new gallery style - what do others think? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 11:09, 14 September 2011 (PDT)
--[[User:Ethan|Ethan]] ([[User talk:Ethan|talk]]) 22:52, 13 June 2017 (PDT)


::Yes, because it's the default value, "|padding=5" gets the same results as leaving that line out.  I simply wanted to show all the available parameters. ;-)  [[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 11:56, 14 September 2011 (PDT)
:So cool! --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] ([[User talk:Lonny|talk]]) 12:02, 16 June 2017 (PDT)


== Need a new loo ==
== Quote and Cite templates ==


That's a lovely toilet on the front page. But it's been there a long while, and we need a new highlighted project, whether toilet-related or not. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 11:56, 8 September 2011 (PDT)
I think it would be useful to have these ''same'' templates:


== CAD files? ==
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Quote
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Cite_web
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Cite_book
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Cite_journal


The <s>[[Share CAD files]]</s> page just asks:
How to transfer:
:can CAD files be uploaded here?
:what about .blend files?
Anyone want to address that? (Of course, this page is a better place for such questions...)


''Update"'': Don't worry about that specific wiki page - I checked the history, and found there was more interesting content there on a different subject that was deleted for some reason, so I restored and moved it. I'm sure our [[open hardware]]/[[maker]] community would be interested in uploading CAD and .blend files, though. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 13:40, 9 September 2011 (PDT)
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Templates#Copying_from_one_wiki_to_another


== Abuse Filter ==
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Export


I've updated abuse filter again because we seem to get a lot of spam links that end in .pl. Edits from anonymous or new (less than 2 days) will be flagged in the [[Special:AbuseLog]] page.  
In testing it took a minute or two for wikipedia to prepare the Template:Quote.
It's 22.8 mb with all the history.


Just a note, there are other actions that can be taken by abuse filter (warning, blocking, throttling) if anyone thinks they could be useful let me know and I will set it up --[[User:Tahnok|Tahnok]] 20:34, 12 September 2011 (PDT)
[[User:Facilitator|Facilitator]] ([[User talk:Facilitator|talk]]) 14:45, 18 September 2017 (PDT)


-- There is a pattern in all the recent spam -- some words and then a number -- this seems like an easy thing to block - does anyone know of a good tool? --[[User:Fixer|Fixer]] 13:54, 18 September 2011 (PDT)
:Hi Facilitator, My apologies on the slow reply. Is this something you are still looking into? --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] ([[User talk:Lonny|talk]]) 11:45, 1 November 2017 (PDT)


:That's something that AbuseFilter could block, but I haven't noticed the particular pattern. Fixer, do you remember the exact pattern? Or, if you see it again, could you please post it here, or let Tahnok know? Thanks. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 02:39, 1 October 2011 (PDT)
== Database Dumps are Empty ==


== The "How to" template ==
[[Appropedia:Current_dump]] hosts [http://www.appropedia.org/approbackups/currentdump.xml.gz currentdump.xml.gz]. This file is supposed to be a complete dump of the text of Appropedia, which is useful for offline browsing. For weeks (and maybe longer), the file has been just 20 bytes - an empty archive file with no content. Can somebody look into fixing this?


The '''{{tl|How to}}''' template is up and running. This template shows up to 25 '''[[:Category:How tos|How to]]''' steps in a table. See '''[[Barrel O' Fun Worm Bin Instructions]]''' for a working example.
:We would love help on this. --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] ([[User talk:Lonny|talk]]) 12:33, 13 March 2018 (PDT)


;Basic layout
== Vandalism: image uploaded revert fails, etc. ==


<pre>
A new version of <nowiki>[[File:Thames sunset.jpg]]</nowiki> was uploaded yesterday. Revert failed. Deleting and re-uploading also failed to revert. This file currently used on 14 pages including (often on) [[Welcome to Appropedia/CAnews]]. Have blocked [[User:Xerou012]]. Advice appreciated on how best to get back to the intended image? [[User:Philralph|Philralph]] ([[User talk:Philralph|talk]]) 03:11, 1 November 2017 (PDT)
{{How to
:Thank you. Sorry for the issues. The issue is that it can take more than a few minutes for a newly updated image to propagate through the system. It should be good on all of the pages now... it is for me. If it is not for you, please try doing a hard refresh of your browser. Thanks again, --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] ([[User talk:Lonny|talk]]) 11:41, 1 November 2017 (PDT)
|title= Title
::Thanks, [[User:Lonny|Lonny]], [[User:Philralph|Philralph]] ([[User talk:Philralph|talk]]) 11:46, 1 November 2017 (PDT)
|header1=
:::Thank you [[User:Philralph|Philralph]]! --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] ([[User talk:Lonny|talk]]) 22:25, 1 November 2017 (PDT)
|header2=
|pics=
|size=
|File:Default.png |Caption |1 |Do something.
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
|footer= Footer
}}
</pre>


;Produces:
== offer of  "help to ignite" / invite to collaboration to A People's Food Policy (UK) ==


{{How to
Have emailed an offer of  "help to ignite" / invite to collaboration to A People's Food Policy (UK) - copy of email on http://www.appropedia.org/Talk:Food_UK [[User:Philralph|Philralph]] ([[User talk:Philralph|talk]]) 09:23, 10 January 2018 (PST)
|title= Title
|header1=
|header2=
|pics=
|size=
|File:Default.png |Caption |1 |Do something.
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
|footer= Footer
}}


;Examples
:Excellent. Thanks. --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] ([[User talk:Lonny|talk]]) 13:40, 10 January 2018 (PST)


<pre>
== Why are you non-profit? ==
{{How to
|title=How to Do Something
|File:Bpack bike trailer - demo 1.jpg |1 |Backpack frame bike trailer |Do something.
|File:Aleiha dish.jpg |Aleiha's parabolic solar cooker |2 |Do something really complicated that really isn't.
|||3 |Do something really complicated that really isn't that takes up lots of space and goes all the way across the page...
}}
</pre>


{{How to
Why are you non-profit, when you can be for-profit, and use said profit to solve the problems of the world?
|title=How to Do Something
Like, document things by making youtube videos, to also get people to watch you helping people, maybe sell merchandise like any good youtube channel does, maybe even sell toy-versions of technologies useful for appropriation, maybe even some tiny e-book of only a few dozen pages, half or more being with only images (i.e. left page text and right page image to go with the text), maybe print some books to give to developing settlements, and make sure to include links or search terms for people who have internet access, and then you can go ahead and accept volunteers to help you out, eventually for the chance of being on youtube, being seen working. The whole point would be to be quite transparent in regards with what you're helping people with, and advertise your merchandise online with lines like "every 100 plushies helps us build one treadle pump well for a settlement, and you can watch us on youtube so you can see for yourself and show others that things ''can'' change for the better, if you invest in the right groups of people.
|File:Bpack bike trailer - demo 1.jpg |Backpack frame bike trailer |1 |Do something.
|File:Aleiha dish.jpg |Aleiha's parabolic solar cooker |2 |Do something really complicated that really isn't.
|||3 |Do something really complicated that really isn't that takes up lots of space and goes all the way across the page without even needing to have a picture to go with it because that's why it needs lots of words!
}}


<pre>
So let's do a recap:
{{How to
|title=How to Do a Little Something
|size=100
|File:Fin2.jpg |CCAT's Vermicomposting Bin |1 |Do something with little pictures.
|footer=Oh, by the way...
}}
</pre>


{{How to
* Youtube videos of you doing actual work to help people, posted on your very own Youtube channel
|title=How to Do a Little Something
* merchandise related to you doing some of that work, eventually also some e-books (PDFs) and possibly even physical books (i.e. through Amazon), and even selling the very tools and tech you're helping people with, with a plain cheap version for those in need, and a fancy version for those who can afford and want to support the cause.
|size=100
* allow volunteers to help you out, in exchange for appearing in a video on Youtube, while they work.
|File:Fin2.jpg |CCAT's Vermicomposting Bin |1 |Do something with little pictures.
* be for-profit instead of non-profit, so you can use the profit to help change the world for the better, one problem at a time.
|footer=Oh, by the way...
* possibly also build a bikecar/velocar, which is a pedal powered 3-wheeler 4-wheeler (2 wheels in the front), and the frame can just be some painted textile (shell) resting on an skeleton (out of wood or metal, or even plastic). Preferably make it so it can change gears up to easily going 50 km/h (30 mph), or even faster (to be road-safe).
}}


<pre>
[https://imgur.com/a/hF3LuuJ Here's a logo I've made for fun.] If you want to use it, I can give you the source files.
{{How to
|pics=no
||||Do something with no pictures!
|footer=Don't forget!  :-)
}}
</pre>


{{How to
|pics=no
||||Do something with no pictures!
|footer=Don't forget!  :-)
}}


--[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 12:46, 17 September 2011 (PDT)
Good luck!


;Combining the "How to" and "Gallery" templates
- Sapioit
:Non-profits can make a profit; it's just that this one doesn't. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 20:45, 20 September 2018 (PDT)


Of course, the ''very'' next page I came across with images and steps ('''[[How to clean refrigerator coils]]'''), didn't nicely fit into the one-pic-one-step layout!  Fortunately, combining this How to template with the {{tl|Gallery}} template worked pretty well.  :-)  Here's a layout example.
::I understand. My point is, by being for-profit, it can become competitive enough to actually change the world fast enough to make a difference in more than just a very few remote places.


<pre>
::- Sapioit
{{How to
|pics=no
||||Remove both (or just the kick plate, in built-in models) cover plates to expose the condenser coils.  ...
{{gallery
|lines=0
|width=180
|height=135
|Image:Kick_plate.jpg|
|Image:Remove_kickplate.jpg|
|Image:Back_coils.jpg|
}}
}}
</pre>


{{How to
::Thank you both. It is true that non-profits can sell products, advertising, etc. It is also true that for the most part, Appropedia does not do those things. We also agree that it is time to change that. The book [[To Catch the Rain]] is one of our first strong attempts at having a revenue stream to accelerate the impact of Appropedia. Indeed we need a lot of IT help (e.g. with spam abatement, updates, modernization, etc.) and server support (it costs hundreds of dollars a month to run servers that can keep up with our amount of traffic). Therefore, we need to bring in money just for those things... and then to thrive! Thanks again, --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] ([[User talk:Lonny|talk]]) 16:10, 23 September 2018 (PDT)
|pics=no
||||Remove both (or just the kick plate, in built-in models) cover plates to expose the condenser coils. Most plates come off without any disassembly of fasteners; others are screwed on, especially the back plate.
{{gallery
|lines=0
|width=180
|height=135
|Image:Kick_plate.jpg|
|Image:Remove_kickplate.jpg|
|Image:Back_coils.jpg|
}}
}}


--[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 16:31, 17 September 2011 (PDT)
== Ideas to increase participation in Appropedia ==


Here's another example that uses {{tl|How to}} and {{tl|Gallery}} - [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=A_Hand_Powered_Hay_and_Leaf_Baler&oldid=183718 A Hand Powered Hay and Leaf Bale] --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 08:47, 18 September 2011 (PDT)
Hi all, not logged on here in a while although I have periodically browsed articles without logging on or editting.  
 
;Step numbers automatic or optional?
 
Okay, here's a design question. I've seen cases like the gallery above and '''[[How to make awesome thermal curtains‎]]''', where every table row with an image does not necessarily have a step number. (I renumbered the curtain steps in order to use the template.)  The original how to template design automatically numbers every row text cell. The insertion of a '''Step x:''' just as well could be optional. That would require another parameter for each step, but it also would make the template more flexible.  If I'm going to make the change, I rather would do it sooner than later (fewer fix-it edits). Unless I hear otherwise, I'll make the change tomorrow. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 19:10, 17 September 2011 (PDT)
 
:I made the step numbers optional, such as at [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=How_to_make_awesome_thermal_curtains&oldid=183688 How to make awesome thermal curtains]. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 05:38, 18 September 2011 (PDT)
 
;Parameterized headers
 
The table's headers now are parameterized, such as at [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=Gallium_arsenide_solar_cells&oldid=183771 Gallium arsenide solar cells].
 
<pre>
{{How to
|header1=Figure
|header2=Caption
|Image:EfieldSolarCell.jpg|||Fig 1: is a diagram that shows the workings of a solar cell's electric field.  ...
}}
</pre>
 
{{How to
|header1=Figure
|header2=Caption
|Image:EfieldSolarCell.jpg|||Fig 1: is a diagram that shows the workings of a solar cell's electric field.  Note that the section labeled "A" is the n-type junction while the section labeled "B" is the p-type junction.  The black arrows in the diagram note the electric field in between the two junctions when external energy is introduced to the system. 
}}
 
--[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 15:02, 18 September 2011 (PDT)
 
;Adding an extra column
 
Even though it is not explicitly a part of the template, an extra column can be added by using the html "<td>" code. A working example of an extra column, plus an embedded gallery, is at [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=Charcoal_Cooler&oldid=184118 Charcoal Cooler].
 
<pre>
{{How to
|header1=Schematic
|header2=Image<td>Instructions
|image:CC_step7_schem.JPG|Apply to U-1 frames ONLY||[[image:CC_step7_pic.JPG|160px]]<td><b>Step 7:</b> ...
 
Now there should be:
{{Gallery
|lines=0
|height=174
|image:CC_mid_1.JPG|
|image:CC_mid_2.JPG|
}}
}}
</pre>
 
{{How to
|header1=Schematic
|header2=Image<td>Instructions
|image:CC_step7_schem.JPG|Apply to U-1 frames ONLY||[[image:CC_step7_pic.JPG|160px]]<td><b>Step 7:</b> On each of the U-1 frames, fasten both the jute and finishing wire to the other side.
 
Now there should be:
{{Gallery
|lines=0
|height=174
|image:CC_mid_1.JPG|
|image:CC_mid_2.JPG|
}}
}}
 
--[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 19:09, 20 September 2011 (PDT)
 
== Proposal to update the wikitable class palette and establish site-wide palette guidelines ==
 
;Update wikitable class palette
 
Cutting to the chase, this is a proposal to change the wikitable class color palette for the border, background and header background to be as shown below.
 
<pre>
/* wikitable/prettytable class for skinning normal tables */
table.wikitable,
table.prettytable {
    margin: 1em 1em 1em 0;
    background: #F5FFF5;
    border: 1px #A3BFA3 solid;
    border-collapse: collapse;
}
   
   
table.wikitable th, table.wikitable td,
I am sad to see that this wiki is not that busy (at least as far as I can see). I propose a few suggestions about how to increase participation (disclaimer, I do not know if any of these measures are already in place)
table.prettytable th, table.prettytable td {
    border: 1px #A3BFA3 solid;
    padding: 0.2em;
}
table.wikitable th,
table.prettytable th {
    background: #CEF2CE;
    text-align: center;
}
table.wikitable caption,
table.prettytable caption {
    margin-left: inherit;
    margin-right: inherit;
    font-weight: bold;
}
table.prettytable code,
table.wikitable code {
    background-color: transparent;
}
</pre>
 
To illustrate with wider borders, such a palette would look like this.
 
{| class="wikitable" Style="border:5px #A3BFA3 solid; background:#F5FFF5;"
|- align="center" Style="font-weight:bold; background:#CEF2CE;"
| Style="border:5px #A3BFA3 solid;"|One
| Style="border:5px #A3BFA3 solid;"|Two
|-
| Style="border:5px #A3BFA3 solid;"|Three
| Style="border:5px #A3BFA3 solid;"|Four
|-
| Style="border:5px #A3BFA3 solid;"|Five
| Style="border:5px #A3BFA3 solid;"|Six
|}
 
This palette already can be seen on a number of Appropedia pages, such as the boxes at [[Portal:Green living]], [[Portal:Food and agriculture]] and [[Portal:Transport]]; [[Template:How to]]; and several "approtable" tables used in conjunction with the how to template, such as at [[How to Build a Mechanically Powered Battery Charger for LED Lighting]].
 
;Establish site-wide palette guidelines
 
Regardless of whether the particular palette proposed above is used to update the wikitable class, the style eventually should be updated, based on an estasblished set of site-wide palette guidelines.  Several Wikipedia top-level pages use palette style guidelings.  Many of these pages and their palettes are shown at [[Wikipedia:User:RichardF/Palettes]].  More examples of Wikipedia color palette templates are shown at [[Wikipedia:Template:Box-header#Box-header color palettes]].
 
Color palette styles along these lines and based on the Appropedia logo are shown at [[User:RichardF#Tables]] and [[User:RichardF#Palettes]].  Using this approach, it should be possible to establish a set of visually compatible palette styles that help tie together Appropedia pages and themes in a consistent and pleasing manner. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 11:32, 25 September 2011 (PDT)
 
:Thanks Richard.  
 
:Just to clarify, you don't need to understand the code to give an opinion here. This is a suggestion to change our boring standard table style:
:{| class="wikitable"
|- align="center"
! One
! Two
|-
| Three
| Four
|-
| Five
| Six
|}
:so it displays either like this:
:{| class="wikitable" Style="border:1px #A3BFA3 solid; background:#F5FFF5;"
|- align="center" Style="font-weight:bold; background:#CEF2CE;"
| Style="border:1px #A3BFA3 solid;"|One
| Style="border:1px #A3BFA3 solid;"|Two
|-
| Style="border:1px #A3BFA3 solid;"|Three
| Style="border:1px #A3BFA3 solid;"|Four
|-
| Style="border:1px #A3BFA3 solid;"|Five
| Style="border:1px #A3BFA3 solid;"|Six
|}
 
:or perhaps like this (thick borders, 5px):
:{| class="wikitable" Style="border:5px #A3BFA3 solid; background:#F5FFF5;"
|- align="center" Style="font-weight:bold; background:#CEF2CE;"
| Style="border:5px #A3BFA3 solid;"|One
| Style="border:5px #A3BFA3 solid;"|Two
|-
| Style="border:5px #A3BFA3 solid;"|Three
| Style="border:5px #A3BFA3 solid;"|Four
|-
| Style="border:5px #A3BFA3 solid;"|Five
| Style="border:5px #A3BFA3 solid;"|Six
|}
 
:...or somewhere in between (like this 2px example below). Is that right?
:or perhaps like this (thick borders, 5px):
:{| class="wikitable" Style="border:2px #A3BFA3 solid; background:#F5FFF5;"
|- align="center" Style="font-weight:bold; background:#CEF2CE;"
| Style="border:2px #A3BFA3 solid;"|One
| Style="border:2px #A3BFA3 solid;"|Two
|-
| Style="border:2px #A3BFA3 solid;"|Three
| Style="border:2px #A3BFA3 solid;"|Four
|-
| Style="border:2px #A3BFA3 solid;"|Five
| Style="border:2px #A3BFA3 solid;"|Six
|}
 
:Note that it won't be any harder to make a table - all this code will be behind the scenes. We just need to decide what we want the tables to look like.
 
:As for me, I like the change - looks much nicer on the site. I'd probably go for a 2px border, if I had to choose.
 
:Other feedback? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 02:58, 27 September 2011 (PDT)
 
Chris, et al. - To clarify your clarification, the proposal is to change "class=wikitable" to make basic table colors go from this:
 
{| class="wikitable"
|- align="center"
! One
! Two
|-
| Three
| Four
|-
| Five
| Six
|}


to this:
* It took me several mins to locate this page again, I feel since this page is the main forum for the whole site (?) it should be much more prominently signposted at the top of all of the major central pages (i.e. main page, "about" page, perhaps even a header on each individual talk page?
{| class="wikitable" Style="border:1px #A3BFA3 solid; background:#F5FFF5;"
|- align="center" Style="font-weight:bold; background:#CEF2CE;"
| Style="border:1px #A3BFA3 solid;"|One
| Style="border:1px #A3BFA3 solid;"|Two
|-
| Style="border:1px #A3BFA3 solid;"|Three
| Style="border:1px #A3BFA3 solid;"|Four
|-
| Style="border:1px #A3BFA3 solid;"|Five
| Style="border:1px #A3BFA3 solid;"|Six
|}


Nothing else would change. The only reason I made the borders wider in my first example was to make it easier to see the proposed border color, in case someone ''did'' make it wider in a customized table later on. :-)  --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 05:20, 27 September 2011 (PDT)
* I see that permies.com is listed as a collaborator. How about starting a group on that site for appropedia editors to raise awareness.


:Thanks for clarifying. (I do like the 2px border, though.) --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 07:43, 27 September 2011 (PDT)
* In a similar vein, how about forming a group on wikipedia, indeed this is where many new editors could easily be attracted.


::I like the 2px border width too.  It adds a little more "style" to the standard table. Just keep in mind that if anyone wants a 1px border with the standard table colors, they'll have to add that feature to their customized tables. This includes any templates that use "class=wikitable" as well. Not necessarily a big deal, but food for thought.  :-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 10:57, 27 September 2011 (PDT)
Anyway, I am very lazy these days but I want to collaborate a lot more. Pls msg me if anyone wishes to collaborate on writing articles. My areas of interest are broadly under the scope of "homesteading" ... natural building (particularly eathbag building, passive solar design, earth sheltering), sustainable + subsistence farming (e.g. forest gardening, small scale fruit and veg production), domestic scale + sustainable + off grid energy systems, aquaponics, etc.


Okay!  The wikitable now has gone green! Thanks Lonny!  :-)  --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 17:57, 17 October 2011 (PDT)
Over the next few weeks I wish to deveolp material on earth tubes (ground coupled heat exchange).


:::Thank you! It looks great. I love how updating it makes the previous conversation look much more confusing. ;) --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] 20:14, 17 October 2011 (PDT)
Best wishes, [[User:Moribund|Moribund]] ([[User talk:Moribund|talk]]) 07:39, 1 January 2019 (PST)


::::Good work, guys! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 02:47, 18 October 2011 (PDT)
:Hi Moribund,
:Thanks for the suggestions. We are always hoping to grow the community. These few weeks around Jan 1st are always the most slow. That said, we were averaging over 100 edits a day for the last few months (and now have 388,398 edits to date!). Currently our efforts are focused on updating Appropedia's infrastructure so that it runs faster for everyone around the world. It will probably take another two months to finish the updates and migration (especially given our limited financial resources). Until then, maybe you could try forming the group on wikipedia (I am not sure how that works)?
:Thanks again, great to see you, --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] ([[User talk:Lonny|talk]]) 00:31, 2 January 2019 (PST)
::I see there are threads on Permies.com already related to this wiki. On wikipedia it might be harder to create a group since they have to be very strict about having all community activity directly related to editing the encyclopedia. However one approach might be to post on talk pages for wikiprojects that might be interested in appropedia. The message would have to be carefully phrased to be relevant to the encyclpedia. For example, some content on appropedia might be useful in wikipedia articles. I also know that they do not allow for "how to manual" type content, and so appropedia pages might therefore be good to link to from encyclopedia articles. Regards, [[User:Moribund|Moribund]] ([[User talk:Moribund|talk]]) 04:54, 4 January 2019 (PST)


:::::Btw, after a chat with an old friend who is now a web developer, I'm now a fan of subtle use of 3D effects such as shading on web pages, including objects such as tables. I've set up a task on BetterMeans for the 3D effects suggestion: [http://secure.bettermeans.com/issues/11487 3D effects in skin to create clearer sense of space].
== Article about [[Earth tubes]] on Ekopedia ==


:::::I also like "responsive web design" ([[google:responsive web design|Google it]]). --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 19:33, 21 December 2011 (PST)
I've started the [[Earth tubes]] article on appropedia. I could not see it exactly covered when searching here, the nearest was [[Ground source heat pumps]].


::::::{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" style="background:#F5FFF5; border: 2px #A3BFA3 outset;"
Anyway, I can see there is a lot of good info on the Ekopedia article about the same topic [https://www.ekopedia.fr/wiki/Puits_canadien]
|-
! style="background:#CEF2CE;" | My reply
|-
| valign="top" padding="2" |
A similar approach to having color gradients might be to adopt the MediaWiki Vector skin and then adapt the color scheme to be more Appropedia green. The steps outlined at [[mw:Manual:Skinning/Vector]] seem to be relatively straightforward. Simple 3-D shadow effects in tables are easy enough, but I haven't figured out how to get any gradient shadow effect examples I've seen to work yet. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 16:38, 23 December 2011 (PST)
|}


:::::::I added "box-shadow: 2px 2px 1px #888888;" to [[Mediawiki:Common.css]] at the wikitable style to test it out for the shadow effect on tables. Another 3-D effect for review. :-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 21:10, 1 January 2012 (PST)
I've used the google translate feature to try and read the article with limited success.  


I tried a few [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=User:RichardF/Sandbox&oldid=196618 Appropedia green Vector skin test samples] at my sandbox. They use the same hue of green as the wikitable and Main Page box header lines. The test samples use the same brightness as the standard Vector skin. They differ in four levels of saturation. The standard Vector skin uses zero saturation, so any changes to hue alone would all just turn out to be the same shades of grey.  
It would be good to merge the content with the appropedia article.  


I think it would be interesting to test out an Appropedia green Vector skin. According to [[mw:Manual:Skinning/Vector]], it seems to take only a few changes to the standard settings, such as changing a background color in ./skins/vector/screen.css and replacing three color images at ./skins/vector/images/. The Vector skin also would look a little cleaner, regardless of the shade, if the Appropedia logo's background color were changed from white to transparent. That should work regardless of the skin anyone uses as well.
I note that Ekopedia content is being merged with appropedia? Has translation already been done somewhere? Regards, [[User:Moribund|Moribund]] ([[User talk:Moribund|talk]]) 15:11, 5 January 2019 (PST)
:Sounds great! Eventually we hope to merge completely...but that is not currently happening. --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] ([[User talk:Lonny|talk]]) 10:51, 6 January 2019 (PST)


If the Appropedia green Vector skin turns out to be a worthy improvement, I believe it would give a more contemporary and Appropedic feel to the site, similar to adding gradient 3-D effects. At that point, maybe it even could become the default skin. ;-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 05:02, 24 December 2011 (PST)
== Reporting spam ==


:I agree that it is time to switch to the Vector skin. Of the suggestions RichardF posted, I like a hybrid of ''Vector page-fade color: #FEFEFD (H0/S0/V98) and Vector sidebar color: #EFF2EF (H120/S1/V95)''. As a second preference, Appropedia green ''Vector skin test shade gradients: H120/S1/V98 & H120/S1/V95'' looks good to me as well. Please weigh in on final preferences (which, of course, can be changed).
Not sure of normal procedure you have on this wiki, but I suspect these accounts represent paid editor(s) who are posting spam links. Also I would take this moment to point out large volume of new user accounts each day, and only a tiny handful are used to edit. Suspect the new accounts are being started by a bot. Is there a way to make the process of starting an account more robust? Regards, [[User:Moribund|Moribund]] ([[User talk:Moribund|talk]]) 11:36, 21 January 2019 (PST)
:I am asking [[User:Jthiller|Joey]] if he can make the logo transparent (note that the white swath through the center of the orb is the same white as the background, but should not be made transparent).
* [http://www.appropedia.org/User:Appsng]
::Logo is now transparent and the CSS for Monobook has been modified to nicely align the logo. Some care should be taken if putting the logo against a dark background. --[[User:Jthiller|-- Joey]] 22:34, 25 December 2011 (PST)
* [http://www.appropedia.org/User:Elissasmart]
:I am asking [[User:Jason_Michael_Smithson|Jason]] if he can add the social media buttons (can we try out having a facebook share button as well), Google Translate, and Google Analytics to the vector skin.  
* [http://www.appropedia.org/User:Labelle]
:RichardF, can tell us exactly what colors should be added where and what images should be added where?
:Additional thoughts? Thanks, --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] 17:23, 25 December 2011 (PST)


Here's my understand of the basic Vector skin color options (YMMV ;-).
:Hi Moribund,
;Page & file locations
:Thanks for pointing those out. We recently have made the process of starting an account more robust. It helped substantially, but there is still much more to do. Our next steps are upgrading the servers and implementing some other spam prevention tools, that hopefully will not increase the difficulty of creating an account and making edits for real users.
* The [[mw:Manual:Skinning/Vector#colors|MediaWiki Vector Skinning Manual - colors]]: shows what to change and where.
:I deleted the offending pages. You can always edit a spam page and replace it with <nowiki>{{delete|spam}}</nowiki>. Or, if you are interested, we could provide you spam deletion privileges as an admin.
* The [http://www.appropedia.org/skins/vector/screen.css Appropedia vector screen css page]: The Appropedia page to change.
:Thanks again, --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] ([[User talk:Lonny|talk]]) 14:03, 21 January 2019 (PST)
* The [http://www.appropedia.org/skins/vector/images/ Appropedia vector images folder]: The Appropedia folder of color images to change.


;Color palette sections & options
::If you feel that admins are needed then ok, I will need instruction on that though. Otherwise I will pages I see as directed above.  
<pre>
::On the topic, this user ([[Special:Contributions/Andromeda]]) is pasting the same link on many user pages. Regards, [[User:Moribund|Moribund]] ([[User talk:Moribund|talk]]) 14:34, 24 January 2019 (PST)
body {
background-color: #f3f3f3;
/* @embed */
background-image: url(images/page-base.png);
}
</pre>
* Sidebar: The color of the left sidebar, image ("background-image: url(images/page-base.png);" - 1x1) is the bottom of the top of page color gradient (standard is #f3f3f3) - change to selected option.


<pre>
:::Thank you. I have nominated you and I will follow up soon. I also posted a request to Andromeda. Thanks for pointing that out. --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] ([[User talk:Lonny|talk]]) 18:39, 24 January 2019 (PST)
/* Content */
* Another user page + user talk page that is being used for spam, would appreciate an admin taking a look [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=User:Phen375&oldid=382858] + [http://www.appropedia.org/User_talk:Phen375]. Kind regards, [[User:Moribund|Moribund]] ([[User talk:Moribund|talk]]) 06:55, 17 February 2019 (PST)
div#content {
:::: I'm pleased with the recent tuning of the spam filters. The frequency of spam has dropped considerably. Of the 10 pages I just deleted 9 of them were user pages, so that's probably the area we should focus on next. Thanks for the vigilance Moribund. --[[User:Ethan|Ethan]] ([[User talk:Ethan|talk]]) 18:41, 22 February 2019 (PST)
margin-left: 10em;
::::::I get the feeling since it is exactly the same pattern of spam each now that it is the same individual / bot doing it. [[User:Moribund|Moribund]] ([[User talk:Moribund|talk]]) 12:01, 23 February 2019 (PST)
padding: 1em;
:::::::Thank you Moribund for accepting the responsibilities of being an [[Appropedia:Administrators|admin]]! --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] ([[User talk:Lonny|talk]]) 19:45, 11 March 2019 (PDT)
/* @embed */
Congrats, welcome to the team! --[[User:Ethan|Ethan]] ([[User talk:Ethan|talk]]) 02:08, 12 March 2019 (PDT)
background-image: url(images/border.png);
::OK Thanks, I'll do my best. [[User:Moribund|Moribund]] ([[User talk:Moribund|talk]]) 11:32, 12 March 2019 (PDT)
background-position: top left;
background-repeat: repeat-y;
background-color: white;
color: black;
direction: ltr;
}
</pre>
* Content: The main content of a page (standard is white) - no change.
* Border: The line on the left and top of the content, image is bottom of the tabs color gradient. (" background-image: url(images/border.png);" standard is blue) - change to green by replacing images/border.png with a 1x1 image of color #A7F9A7 (H120/S33/V98).


<pre>
==Registration==
/* Head */
On a related note, the page [[Appropedia:About]] states "Registration is encouraged but not required for contributors." As far as I can see this needs to be updated, it is currently necessary to have an account and ot be logged in to edit pages? [[User:Moribund|Moribund]] ([[User talk:Moribund|talk]]) 10:03, 24 February 2019 (PST)
#mw-page-base {
:Thank you for pointing this out. It is now fixed. --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] ([[User talk:Lonny|talk]]) 19:45, 11 March 2019 (PDT)
height: 5em;
background-color: white;
/* @embed */
background-image: url(images/page-fade.png);
background-position: bottom left;
background-repeat: repeat-x;
}
</pre>
* Page-fade: The color at the top of a page (standard is at "background-image: url(images/page-fade.png);" 1x44 #FEFEFD (H0/S0/V98) - change to selected option.


;Vector skin color options
== Should these 2 categories be merged together? ==
I put together a few [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=User:RichardF/Sandbox&oldid=196822 Vector skin color options] in my sandbox. Lonny's preference is OPTION 1. I prefer a little more green in the sidebar (OPTION 2).  Any other preferences? :-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 08:17, 26 December 2011 (PST)


:Okay, so there's more to change than what I originally thought, such as the tabs and any other "fade" images. I started my own Vector css page at [[User:RichardF/vector.css‎]]. I used Option 2 for the colors. You would have to copy the code to your own user page to see how it looks. Just blanking the page gets it back to the default. The tab fades probably could use some tuning, but you can get the idea fairly well, i think. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 23:09, 31 December 2011 (PST)
* Category:Gardening
* Category:Horitulcture and gardening


::Here's a complete makeover at [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=User:RichardF/vector.css&oldid=196997 User:RichardF/vector.css] for the Vector skin using the Option 2 color background and gradient images. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 08:10, 1 January 2012 (PST)
I note also that Category:Agriculture contains many articles which are specifically about cultivation of plants rather than production of other types of food.


For the fun of it, I also changed the Vector.css code for the page and section lines to match those on the Main page (border-bottom: 5px solid #A3BFA3;)
Unless anyone has any objections I was thinking of merging the 2 categories above and moving some plant specific pages from agriculture to the subcategory of Horticulture and gardening. Kind regards, [[User:Moribund|Moribund]] ([[User talk:Moribund|talk]]) 10:37, 20 March 2019 (PDT)
<pre>
/* Structural Elements */
h1,
h2,
h3,
h4,
h5,
h6 {
color: black;
background: none;
font-weight: normal;
margin: 0;
overflow: hidden;
padding-top: .5em;
padding-bottom: .17em;
border-bottom: 5px solid #A3BFA3;
width: auto;
}
</pre>
As it turns out, I think they make a very nice thematic tie-in across pages. Check it out. ;-)
{| width="100%" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="0"
|- 
| style="border-bottom: 5px solid #A3BFA3; font-size: 188%;" | Level 1 (page) heading
|-
|
Stuff goes here.
|-
| style="border-bottom: 5px solid #A3BFA3; font-size: 150%;" | Level 2 (main section) heading
|-
|
More stuff goes here.
|}
--[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 14:22, 1 January 2012 (PST)


== Daydreaming about the future of spam ==
:No objections from me. Thanks! --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] ([[User talk:Lonny|talk]]) 16:17, 20 March 2019 (PDT)


Some longer term thoughts about spam, and what we might be forced to do to deal with it...
== Autoblock triggering for unrelated IPs ==


This battle with spammers isn't going to go away - the spam bots will get smarter and smarter, and they'll be as good as humans at getting through conventional CAPTCHA. I suspect that we'll eventually have to start manually approving accounts, based on questions we ask at registration. That will probably be a good thing for the community, actually - make joining more of a conscious process. But we'll need a good system for approving them, like on Ning. I act as an admin on [http://www.globalswadeshi.net Global Swadeshi], which runs on Ning, and for new members we can require that they answer certain questions. This can be a simple question like "are you a human?" or "what color is the sky?" and (as the spammers get smarter) we can require that they answer more complex or open-ended questions.
I have seen several instances of this happening.  


For people who don't want to create an Appropedia account, I suspect we'll end up having to rely on various forms of external ID, including Facebook, Twitter. Google and maybe something set up through the Diaspora and StatusNet networks, where we piggy-back on other networks' spam-banning efforts. Maybe people could still be anonymous in terms of how Appropedia sees them, if they want, but there'll be some kind of gatekeeper service that verifies that they've been accepted as human on a reliable network. (E.g. if you're a Twitter user in good standing for more than 30 days and have tweeted at least 10 times, you can pass... I suspect the actual parameters will get quite complex to make it hard to game the system.)
# [https://www.appropedia.org/User:CRlightingAudio] when I accidentally edited a spam page without being logged in. Lonny deleted the page, Ethan later blocked the user. I was then prevented from editing, and it was assumed that autoblock triggered because of this. However, I noticed that the block message stated that he intended blockee was 66.33.193.178 ... and this would definately not be any IP I would have used.
# (event copied from log)[https://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=User:Provitazol_Review_tab&action=edit&redlink=1] "21:05, 22 March 2019 Lonny changed block settings for Provitazol Review tab (Talk | Contributions) with an expiry time of indefinite (account creation disabled, autoblock disabled) (Abusing multiple accounts - I changed the IP to not be blocked as somehow it was also my IP??"
# I think the same thing happened? [https://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=User:BecomingLimitless_Review01&action=edit&redlink=1]
# An Appropedia user messaged me saying they had autoblocked, related to this block: [https://www.appropedia.org/User:Mela_Luna_Sleep_Aid_Review]. The user tells me that the block message they received tells them that the indended blockee is 66.33.193.178, user also mentions that this is not their IP.
# Another appropedia user messaged me saying they had been blocked when they tried to edit their user page. They did not give any details so I am waiting for more info.  


Yet another option - build walls between content by established users and content by new users. Anything by new and anonymous users is automatically flagged as "draft" and is not visible to casual visitors to Appropedia. This could let us delay any restrictions to anonymous editing and registration. The "Pending Changes" function on Wikipedia (a.k.a. FlaggedRevisions) would be the natural starting point.
Note that the IP from 2 of these cases is the same (New Dream Network, LLC). I am starting to suspect the intended blockee will be the same in the other cases as well? Sommething seems to be going wrong here. I am concerned that this will discourage legitimate users from contributing. I have provisionally disabled the autoblock on all recent blocks (the blocks I did anyway), as this does not seem to stop the continued creation of user accounts that will post spam anyway. If anyone knows anything about this, please post. Kind regards, [[User:Moribund|Moribund]] ([[User talk:Moribund|talk]]) 01:43, 23 March 2019 (PDT)


In the meantime, thanks to all who do battle - all those who revert spam, those who flag new spam pages and the admins who delete them. Thanks to the tech team for their continued work in building barriers against spam. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 01:32, 1 October 2011 (PDT)
:: Another case of the same today, msg states intended blockee 66.33.193.178. Anyone shed some light on this? It seems the autoblock feature is nonfunctional. [[User:Moribund|Moribund]] ([[User talk:Moribund|talk]]) 13:19, 16 April 2019 (PDT)


:Chiming in by analogy, verifying wikiworthiness by linking to an established and used Wikipedia account is another way to leverage previous wikieditor hoop jumping. ;-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 07:32, 1 October 2011 (PDT)
:::I am messaging [[User:Chriswaterguy]] and Roger about this. It seems to have started happening right after we enabled a new type of caching. --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] ([[User talk:Lonny|talk]]) 18:15, 21 April 2019 (PDT)


::A standard protocol exists for that, [[wikipedia:OpenID]]. See for example:
:::::OK, thanks. [[User:Moribund|Moribund]] ([[User talk:Moribund|talk]]) 23:19, 21 April 2019 (PDT)
::* [http://news.open-bio.org/news/2011/03/introduction-of-openid-logins-for-obf-wikis/ Introduction of OpenID logins for OBF wikis]
::Also see these Google search results:
::* {{google|wikis with manual account approval}}
::[[wikiindex:Category:Wiki Edit Mode]] classifies wikis according to how they choose to allow people to edit. It seems that with the increasing sophistication of spammers, all small public wikis will have to disallow non-logged-in editing, and use some system for manually approving accounts, and/or for inheriting accounts from some other system. See [[wikipedia:Wikipedia:Flagged revisions]] for more about using [[mw:Extension:FlaggedRevs]] to combat spam (good idea, by the way). Presumably if spammers find it impossible to make visible changes on a wiki, they will lose interest. Unless they are simply spambots on a zombie network that don't bother to check whether their spamming is having any effect.
::And it probably gets worse:
::* [http://mashable.com/2011/03/17/centcom-social-media-personalities/ U.S. Military Developing False Online Personalities to Counter “Enemy Propaganda”]
::Incidentally, the existence of spam gives me some doubts about the [[wikipedia:Technological singularity]]. As computers get faster, they also get faster at wasting their power by spamming each other. Computers may end up squandering their power to fight their massive parasite load. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 13:03, 2 October 2011 (PDT)
:::See [[mw:Extension:OpenID]] as one possibility that can work in addition to whatever account approval hoops we might want to add. It seems likely that limiting edits to (somehow) verified users would drastically reduce spam. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 13:09, 2 October 2011 (PDT)


::::I didn't think of OpenID as helping with spam, but I guess we can choose to only accept OpenID from sources that do some work on blocking spammers (which might be almost all of the major ones).
::::::Yep... happened again to some students for IP 66.33.193.178 which was blocked for [[User:Traydugout59]]. Hopefully we will get to the bottom of this soon. I realize the timing corresponds with the new caching and moving to https (from http).--[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] ([[User talk:Lonny|talk]]) 00:24, 22 April 2019 (PDT)
::::Actually - allow me to digress a bit - it would be nice to allow users on green dev wikis (Appropedia, Greenlivingpedia, Akvopedia) to quickly get full privileges on other green wiki sites. If we all set up to provide ''and'' accept OpenID, that would work.
::::One concern I have with OpenID though - isn't it a boon to phishing scams? I'd think it would be easy to set up a fake OpenID login to harvest people's login details for Yahoo, LJ and other OpenID providers.
::::Re the singularity... when Skynet becomes sentient, will it try to blow us up, or will it just be much better at selling us cialis? And able to feel sad when we don't take the bait? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 07:08, 3 October 2011 (PDT)
:::::[[Wikipedia:OpenID#Security and phishing]] describes the risks but doesn't provide enough information for me to guess the probability of risk. I would be surprised if that risk was anything like Appropedia's risk of continuing to get spammed. It looks like the threat is primarily to the user whose cross-platform account might get compromised. Maybe a possible countermeasure might involve something like Wikipedia's [[wikipedia:Template:User committed identity|user committed identity]]. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 12:41, 6 October 2011 (PDT)
{{undent}} I'm looking at some wikis that appear in both [[wikiindex:Category:ByInvitation]] and [[wikiindex:Category:MediaWiki]] (i.e., wikis running on the MediaWiki software that require some sort of human screening of new accounts before they get permission to edit). One example is [[wikiindex:Beachapedia]]. See for example:
* [http://www.beachapedia.org/Help:New_user Help:New user] - "To become a Beachapedia contributor, please 1) register on this site and 2) send an email to us at "beachapedia at surfrider.org" with your username and affiliation. This will allow us to adjust your account so that you can start adding and editing pages."
* [http://www.beachapedia.org/Special:ListGroupRights User group rights] - this page should, I think, reveal the mechanism by which Beachapedia "adjust(s) your account". Perhaps the relevant group is "[http://www.beachapedia.org/index.php?title=Special:ListUsers&limit=500&group=editors editors]".
* [http://www.beachapedia.org/Special:ActiveUsers Active users list] - shows modest activity in the past 30 days.
* [http://www.beachapedia.org/Special:ListUsers User list] - the total number of users is much greater than the number who are editors. This suggests a lot of account creation by people or bots who did not get through the human approval step.
* [http://www.beachapedia.org/Special:RecentChanges Recent Changes] - this shows a lot of account creation, but no spam that I see in a quick glance.
* Compare [http://www.beachapedia.org/Special:BlockList their empty block list] to ours: [[Special:BlockList]]. And weep, as we continue to beat our heads against the wall.
It appears that Beachapedia has more or less eliminated spam, but not the creation of spurious (?) accounts. The main question would be how many constructive contributors are deterred by the need to send an email message, and whether that loss outweighs the gain of a spam-free wiki. My thinking would be, if someone can't be bothered to send an email message to verify their account, they probably aren't going to be a serious contributor. In any case, if Appropedia wanted to do something similar, we would need a way to circulate account request messages (whether transmitted via email, or via some on-wiki mechanism) to all the [[Appropedia:Administrators|administrators]], to minimize the time to approval. (With multiple admins in different time zones checking in daily, we should be able to approve new accounts fairly quickly. [[mw:Manual:$wgAddGroups]] tells how to give admins a limited ability to change user rights; normally only bureaucrats can do this.) We could also let the software grant new accounts immediate access to edit a limited set of pages, such as the [[Appropedia:Sandbox]] so they could practice editing right away. Anyway, this is just something to consider if we get tired of wasting our lives deleting spam. Requiring human approval of new accounts probably eliminates most of the need to install rocket science anti-spam software, which could probably never keep up with the increasingly sophisticated spammers anyway. Except on a state of the art wiki like Wikipedia, which seems to have thousands of users who are happy to specialize in fighting spam. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 13:48, 7 October 2011 (PDT)


:I've acted as an admin on a popular discussion board with thousands of members and virtually no spam. The key there was threefold - requiring an account to edit, admins approving all new account requests with emails, and immediately deleting spam.  Without the first two steps, the third is all that's left.  This isn't Wikipedia. Expecting a commitment to integrity before being given the privilege to edit is not unreasonable. No one has to register to read a page.  That's what most people do. Rising to the next level - editing - should be earned, not stolen. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 18:43, 8 October 2011 (PDT)
:::::::Woohoo! Roger fixed it. For prosperity - it stemmed from not adding our server's own IP to $wgSquidServers. Should be good to go from now on out. --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] ([[User talk:Lonny|talk]]) 15:14, 22 April 2019 (PDT)
::::::::OK, I'll try it again. thanks, [[User:Moribund|Moribund]] ([[User talk:Moribund|talk]]) 10:59, 23 April 2019 (PDT)


== Simple Technologies Can Improve The Lives Of Millions ==
== Is this spam? ==


Interesting article, very relevant to the knowledge shared on Appropedia: [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/27/technology-environment-health-clinton-global-initiative_n_983610.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000003 Simple Technologies Can Improve The Lives Of Millions In Developing World, Say Global Health Leaders].
Any opinions about whether these pages all created by the same user suitable for this wiki? They all appear to be products of the company listed first. I feel they probably should all be deleted. [[User:Moribund|Moribund]] ([[User talk:Moribund|talk]]) 10:59, 29 May 2019 (PDT)


So far Appropedia isn't getting that kind of attention. We do have 1 or 2 projects coming up that will increase the quality and amount of info here on simple technologies - but there's a lot more to do.  
* [[Zhengzhou_Fusmar_Machinery_Co.,Ltd]]
* [[Flat Die Wood Pellet Machine]]
* [[Small Fish Feed Pellet Machine]]
* [[Charcoal briquette production line‎]]
* [[Fish feed pellet production line]]
* [[Ring Die Wood Pellet Machine‎‎]]
:One of those is a red link. Checking only [[Charcoal briquette production line‎]], that doesn't seem to be spam but it is poorly written and unattested. [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 12:25, 29 May 2019 (PDT)


Thinking, thinking... there's a lot of info that we have access to (e.g. Practical Action Technical Briefs) that we're not making use of - there's a lot of semi grunt work there in converting them to wiki pages. It will really boost the quality of our content there - it's fantastic content. I guess we need to promote "Content Internships". --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 08:53, 3 October 2011 (PDT)
::I agree that they are too spammy. I went ahead and deleted them and left a message in the summary and for Amy at [[User_talk:Amyyan]]. Thank you! --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] ([[User talk:Lonny|talk]]) 14:24, 29 May 2019 (PDT)


== Peter Ongele, Kenya ==
== Links to site: "Earthava" ==


(This message was placed on the [[Appropedia:User requests]] page, and someone moved it to [[Appropedia:Stories]]. It didn't really belong there either, so I'm moving it here. It's more than 2 years old, but I didn't want to just delete it. It's an interesting window into the life of one Appropedia visitor. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 23:55, 4 October 2011 (PDT))
Hi, just wanted to raise concerns about the actions of this user: [[Special:Contributions/Samalmaairgy]]


Am Peter Ongele from Kenya, Western region next to Lake Victoria. I am trying to figure out my commitment online and at the sametime distribute my time to the on ground community activities.I dream of changing ideas, horizons, knowledge, and putting ideas viable across on the public domain, organizations and good willed people. To be conversant with values and dream, I'm a rural empowering crusader, I do not believe on rural to urban migrations for employment which is making no difference in life sustaining approaches in food security. There is an electricity grid line passing next to where I do my agricultural activity, I am hoping to connect this with ICT. I also dream to have alternative energy supply which is environment friendly, our skies are shinning with tropical sunshine. I do hope to get interested people in [[solar power]] energy to join me and support my community and villagers in this. We have some of the physically challenged children, orphans who are even much more bright to go to school and have dropped out of school due to famine and [[poverty]], they need assistance to feed and make it to school.
I have not checked every single one of their contributions, however the clear pattern seems to be entirely restricted to adding of links to the blog / website "Earthava" (recently rebranded from Survival Renewable Energy") [https://www.earthava.com/about/]
The community need to put irrigation system for horticulture farming a long the lake and to drill the underground drilled water to help control cholera and water borne diseases which the community have suffered on, people lossing lifes and increased poverty situation going up rapidly. Right now, am still working on how we can bridge the starvation (famine) before the harvest and irrigation which is very important due to the more experience of unpredictable rains in the region. Would be greatful for contacts, organizations and cooperation towards my dreams. --{{unsigned|Peter|24 June 2009}}


== Scanner question ==
Back in 2015 I can see Lonny requested that the user make more substantial contributions than merely posting links to the site. This appears to have gone unanswered (at least in public). The user name seems to be set up by the owner of the site (Assmaa Almaairgy 'Sam') and I feel it can be said that this user is editing this wiki 100% for self promotional reasons.


Another orphaned comment. I'm merging [[Appropedia:Frustrating experiences]] into [[Appropedia:Stories]] in the interests of simplicity and clarity, and that page had just this one comment, and no responses. The page was actually meant for something else, but then, we don't have a page for these kinds of tech questions either. Once we get a proper forum set up we'll be better able to handle such questions. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 04:10, 5 October 2011 (PDT)
While the website contains a some info of use, the nature of some of the content seems a bit too commercially motivated, e.g.:


"I have two Mustek 6000P scanners which have ceased to function. The fluorescent lamps do not come on. The power supplies are OK. How can I find out if the fault is the cold cathode tube or the circuit that supplies it? If the tubes are defunct I might be able to recycle the circuitry to make CC fluorescent lamps." {{unsigned|Kennyt|14 July 2011}}
* An app for users to enter their address and get a free estimate of how much money they could save by having PV system installed, likely later to be contacted by an installation company. Presumably there is a financial agreement between the owner of the site and the company giving the quote.


== Your stories, please! ==
* "Top 10 product reviews" format pages, of which there many examples some of which linked directly from this wiki, listing price comparisons and give links to amazon to purchase products. Presumably those are affiliate links which earn revenue for the site owner. (examples [https://www.earthava.com/top10-10-best-solar-chargers/][https://www.earthava.com/10-best-solar-water-heater-systems/]) Indeed, it is unclear if there is any financial relationship between the product manufacturers and the site owner.


Check out the [[Appropedia:Stories]] page. I'm sure that's not even scratching the surface. What's your story? Is there a line or a paragraph you can share?
I feel the user is acting in bad faith and has showed no intention of changing their behaviour for many years, and that these links should all be removed since they add little to the wiki. Thoughts? Kind regards, [[User:Moribund|Moribund]] ([[User talk:Moribund|talk]]) 13:37, 17 June 2019 (CDT)


What was it like the first time you found Appropedia? Did something excite you? Did you learn something? Did you find an opportunity to share your knowledge?
:Hi Moribund,
:I agree with your general assessment.
:Eventually, we need to decide if we have a spot for links like this with a small sponsorship cost (that also pays for someone to make sure the linked information is appropriate)...but that is a different and much bigger conversation (one started at [[Appropedia:Supporters/FAQ]]).
:On to [[Samalmaairgy]]'s contributions. Sam seems well intentioned with a quite small social media presence. I think it is reasonable to reverse the majority of her edits. I think it is reasonable for her to promote her blog on her userpage ([[User:Samalmaairgy]]). I would love if she started adding value to Appropedia as her spirit and background seem to fit well. I will reach out to her on her instagram at instagram.com/assmaa.almaairgy/ to let her know. It is very possible that she never saw my comments on her talk page and is acting in what she thinks is good faith.
:Thank you for catching this and for your thoughts. --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] ([[User talk:Lonny|talk]])


On a personal note: I'll be making a presentation about Appropedia at a business conference in a week's time. The more stories I can draw on and point people to, the better. Thanks! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 10:15, 5 October 2011 (PDT)
Hello There,


:I've had exactly zero responses - here, on the Appropedia blog, [[Appropedia:Stories]] page and on Facebook. Clearly I'm asking the wrong way. :-(
I am Sam, I am glad I came across this discussion by coincidence because no one has informed me directly about this issue. I can see the concern here regarding my actions here on Appropedia. I want to reply to the first concern about my actions and that fact that they are for promotional purposes. First of all the banner at the bottom of the articles is well-known and widely used among big websites. Treehugger.com uses this banner sitewide. and I believe that there are too many links that link back to Treehugger in Appropedia with no problem. Also, I think Appropedia has no problem to link to websites that are showing ads.


:Any ideas? This is really important for demonstrating that Appropedia deserves support. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 04:06, 17 October 2011 (PDT)
Second of all, Regarding the top 10 products articles, My first concern was to add value to Appropedia pages, I make sure that the page is relevant, so if the article talks about solar garden lights I search for a relevant page that talks about solar lighting or garden lights.


== Medical advice ==
Third of all, not all of my contributions are about 10 top products. I added many relevant articles in these Appropedia pages:-


Just came across the [[Horsetail]] page featured on [[Portal:Health and safety]].
https://www.appropedia.org/Solar_energy_conversion_system
https://www.appropedia.org/Energy_from_the_wind


This includes a long list of problems which can be helped by this plant but has no references, nothing to back up the claims.
The articles I mentioned there provide relevant information with no products showing.  unless back to my first point Appropedia does not allow to link to websites that are showing ad banners.  


Do we need to have disclaimers added to this type of page -
According to what you mentioned, "that because of my 'small' social media presence I try to seek promotion in somewhere else like Appropedia." Though it seems offensive, I won't focus on it much because my first intention was to add value to Appropedia then comes my benefits. I think it is not fair to reverse all of my contributions. And, for the time being, I will stop any further contributions here on Appropedia, because I wished that there were instant notices to my contributions instead if just talking about it without me even knowing if I was doing something that goes against Appropedia Rules.
Try this if you are feeling a bit under the weather but if you are sick you better see a doctor.


What is our policy on medical advice on Appropedia? Should we ban all medical advice except for links to other sites that do this better such as [[Where There is no Doctor]]?--[[User:Joe Raftery|Joe Raftery]] 07:12, 8 October 2011 (PDT)
Thank you! --<small>—The preceding [[Help:Signatures|comment]] was added by [[User:Samalmaairgy|Samalmaairgy]] ([[User talk:Samalmaairgy|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Samalmaairgy|contribs]]) 13:40, 19 June 2019‎ </small>


:+1 for clear disclaimers. We have [[Appropedia:General disclaimer]] linked from the footer of each page, but I'm all for beefing that up, and for having specific disclaimers on certain types of pages.


:I'm inclined to allow all kinds of advice that isn't clearly bad advice... but have a way of flagging certain types of advice as unsourced, incomplete, or, as you say, something to try if you're not seriously ill.
::Hello Sam,
::Thank you so much for your response. First of all, my apologies for seeming offensive. I meant that your small social media presence was a positive sign that you were like much of the Appropedia community just trying to find ways to have impact, as opposed to a giant conglomerate bent on only making money. I do not mean that those are the only options, I only meant that you seemed like a real person based on the little that I could see. I understand how it reads offensively, I should have been more clear.
::I did reach out to you a few years ago, via your userpage, and email (if you had one registered), at [[User_talk:Samalmaairgy]]. I am sorry that message did not get to you. We recently updated our email services so that they are less likely to end up in spam. I also just added you on Instagram so that I could alert you to our concerns...and so we could get to know each other a little more and seek synergistic ways to support our efforts. For example, you could definitely add links and information about your sites and project at [[User:Samalmaairgy]].
::You are correct that we do not have a good and clear policy on adding link backs. That said, we strongly encourage value added content to be added to Appropedia instead of just links to the URLs belonging to the poster. Our policy usually has us removing these types of added links. Does that make sense?
::In conclusion, my apologies for any offense. I am glad to have you hear, and to meet you. I know you have been working on this type of stuff for a long time! Please let me know your thoughts.
::Thank you, --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] ([[User talk:Lonny|talk]]) 17:49, 19 June 2019 (CDT)


:It's likely we'll see a lot of pages about appropriate technologies for health and medicine before long (and if this whisper doesn't become reality, it will happen at some stage.) So this is a good and timely question. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 04:06, 17 October 2011 (PDT)
== The $300 House ==


In case you haven't seen it, here's an FYI. Any takers?:-)
::In response, whether the first concern is adding value to the wiki, or just a method of free self promotion (and possibly also some fanancial gain) is impossible to prove either way. The real question is ''whether these edits have added anything of value to the wiki''. I think since they add zero actual content and are just external links to a site of limited use to readers of this wiki, they merely act to divert traffic away from the wiki... viewers that might otherwise have contributed to the wiki. No such links are provided back to Appropedia from the blog. I agree that to add actual content to the wiki at the same time as linking would be preferable, and a link to the blog from a user page is fine, however if editing is restricted to adding such links with no content, this is questionable. The reason I did not delete all links is because the blog / website linked cannot be said to be purely commercial and is providing some information to the public without any paywall on some pages. Despite the obvious self promotion, I am unsure if those links should be removed. Other pages of product reviews and links to amazon cannot be said to be as useful to readers and should definately be deleted in my opinion. I see that the app to get a quote for solar PV savings seems to have gone (?). Therefore I will let others decide the best course of action here, kind regards, [[User:Moribund|Moribund]] ([[User talk:Moribund|talk]]) 15:54, 20 June 2019 (CDT)


*[http://www.300house.com/ The $300 House website]
Hello there,
*[http://blogs.hbr.org/video/2011/03/building-a-300-house-for-the-p.html Harvard Business Review Video: Building a $300 House for the Poor]
*[http://hbr.org/web/slideshows/help-us-build-a-300-dollar-house/1-slide Harvard Business Review Slideshow: Help Us Build a $300 House]


{{#widget:YouTube|id=SL-LqCQ0YKA}}
Sam here,


--[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 12:54, 13 October 2011 (PDT)
In response to Lonny, Thank you so much for your positive response, I have followed you back on Instagram. I saw your message in my talk page just today, I wish I have read it back then to understand the Appropedia policies better. Thank you for your help and for your supporting words.


:I think this is ''very'' valuable as a design exercise, though not as a panacea. That leaves some middle ground... can it be a solution or set of tools to be used as appropriate?
In response to Moribund, I believe I have already replied to your concern about my contributions in my first response. and regarding the ad at the bottom of the posts. Pardon me,  it is silly to think that it was removed due to this discussion. It just happened to be good timing that is all. The ad was removed due to issues in the code, It is a temporary removal and it will be added again once the problem is solved.
:See [http://www.architecturefordevelopment.com/2011/05/critique-of-the-300-house/ Critique of the $300 house] has interesting perspectives (from "David Week... an architect with more than 30 years experience working in development.") I don't quite agree with that analysis - I think he makes good points, though I'm not ready to write off the project. But if we claim to create a good solution to this question, we must be able to answer all the issues raised there.  
:I was thinking about putting my name down for the team, but for now I'm just keeping my eyes open for any more news. I've spent time in the past discussing shelter design with Vinay Gupta, aka Mr Hexayurt, who is listed already. It's very interesting stuff. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 04:06, 17 October 2011 (PDT)


== The Topicadmin notice ==
There is something that worth mentioning, I get zero traffic and zero profit from Appropedia, there might be literally 1 or 2 visitors a month from Appropedia to my website. Nothing much that made you so bothered about my 'financial gain' because of my links in Appropedia. So again I am not benefiting from this in one way or another. And to not bother you again, I made it clear that my contributions whether in the form of providing raw information or adding external links to Appropedia pages will be stopped. and I will keep my contributions in my user page only according to Lonny's advice.


The {{tl|Topicadmin}} tag is used on [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Topicadmin&hidelinks=1 a handful of pages] - it adds a note saying "This topic is moderated by USERNAME". There's a little more explanation at [[Appropedia:Topic experts]]. It's an old template from the early days of Appropedia, and its use hasn't been as Appropedia has grown.
Thank you all!
::I only see external links no other content. As I stated earlier, intentions are essentially irrelevant, the issues is whether the links are of value to the wiki, and if not then they should be removed imo. [[User:Moribund|Moribund]] ([[User talk:Moribund|talk]]) 02:25, 22 June 2019 (CDT)
:::As no-one else has expressed any new opinions on this, I'll remove any links that are too commercial. I feel a good rule of thumb for this is ELs to pages dedicated to product reviews and amazon links should be removed, whereas pages of general informative content might stay. I'll start work on this in a few days unless anyone else posts. [[User:Moribund|Moribund]] ([[User talk:Moribund|talk]]) 11:43, 7 July 2019 (CDT)


Question: Do we abandon it? Keep it but use it more? Modify it? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 03:37, 17 October 2011 (PDT)
== Climate change as an area in the lh menu? ==


:I would suggest asking a related question, so I will. ;-) Is there interest in expanding the idea of [[Appropedia:Topic experts|topic experts]] to simply be sections of ''"ApproProjects"'' (sort of like [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:WikiProject|WikiProjects]]?  How about asking the current topic experts if they want to be the founding members of their corresponding ApproProjects? That way, we would know at least two things: first, whether they want to continue on as topic experts; and second, whether they want to expand into a broader article improvement collaboration with other contributors. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 07:09, 17 October 2011 (PDT)
With the rapid recent rise of [[Extinction Rebellion]] worldwide, I'm wondering if it might be a smart move to list Climate change (or similar) as an area in the left hand column menu. This might attract more editors to Appropedia? We could start with the [[:Category:Climate change]] which has a similar number of articles to some other areas. Then if enough support collaborate to develop a portal? What do you think? [[User:Philralph|Philralph]] ([[User talk:Philralph|talk]]) 14:13, 19 October 2019 (UTC)


::I'd love to have ApproProjects, and I'm ready and willing. The challenge is in developing a community or team around those pages. This hasn't proven easy in the past, with other specific work teams on topic areas or publicity or whatever. How do we make this work? (I have some ideas, but I don't think they're the whole answer... and I want to hear other people's thoughts first.) --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 14:46, 18 October 2011 (PDT)
:Just seeing this now. I think it is a brilliant idea. Clearly most of our work ties directly to, and is driven by, climate change...making that more clear seems like a good call. --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] ([[User talk:Lonny|talk]]) 20:51, 7 November 2019 (UTC)


:::I would say the first step is to [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Incrementalism just do it].  To be clear, for me, the subject matter of ApproProjects would be ''articles'', which is different than the subject matter of of what's addressed on pages like [[Portal:Projects]] - ''real world'' projects outside of Appropedia.
:: Great, done the first bit, will get round to working on drafting a Portal soon, but of course anyone can start on this if you like. [[User:Philralph|Philralph]] ([[User talk:Philralph|talk]]) 09:25, 8 November 2019 (UTC)


:::That said, if you start an ApproProject, I'll join it and help out with setting up the Appropedia infrastructure.  I'll also help out with various grunt work activities.  :-)  --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 18:29, 18 October 2011 (PDT)
==Untitled==
THius is hard to edit we dont know what to do {{unsigned|Cabskie}}
:How can I help? [[User:Koavf|Koavf]] ([[User talk:Koavf|talk]]) 02:57, 9 December 2019 (UTC)


== "Appropriate Technology" with a big AT ==
==Appropedia's rules and bugs==
Hello there! I am considering using Appropedia for posting information, references and links on climate change and related activism. I would be interested to have some more information on Appropedia's rules, which I cannot easily find on the [[Appropedia:About|About pages]].


I was wondering about the term "appropriate technology" - and the fact that when you google it, it often yields it as part of a regular sentence - not as a technical term, but simply referring to the most appropriate technology in a certain context (whether a new computer system for a government department, or whatever). Someone (can't recall who) suggested to me that "Appropriate Technology" with a capital AT is sometimes used to distinguish the term as having the more specific meaning, of the kind of technology you can find on Appropedia. That makes sense - small letters seem like they're just the word "appropriate" and "technology" used together, whereas "Appropriate Technology" looks like a technical term.
Wikipedia's rules on [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view neutrality] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability notability] would prevent posting some useful information there, and this is why Appropedia may be a useful complement. However, I wonder what replaces these two rules on Appropedia? My impression is that Appropedia is not yet developed enough for having formal rules, is that correct?


So should we start capitalizing "Appropriate Technology"? Would that be clearer? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 14:03, 18 October 2011 (PDT)
Moreover I have a technical question. Appropedia was "database locked" for a few days recently, with little information on when that situation started and how long it lasted. Over the last few years, how often did such situations occur? Which percentage of the time is Appropedia fully functional? [[User:Shapoklyak|Shapoklyak]] ([[User talk:Shapoklyak|talk]]) 08:46, 2 January 2020 (UTC)


:"Appropriate Technology" implies a proper noun - the name of a distinct something. I don't know of any basis for such a usage of capitalization. At best, such usage probably would be a [[wikipedia:Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a dictionary#Neologisms|neologism]]. I'm not at all convinced the term has a sufficiently common meaning to warrant capitalization without qualifying the specific, unique entity it would reference. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 19:30, 18 October 2011 (PDT)
:Hi [[User:Shapoklyak|Shapoklyak]], hopefully others might answer your questions more directly, but just wanted to say that "information, references and links on climate change and related activism" sounds good to me. As you can see from our [[:Category:Climate change]] we have so far 80 pages or more on climate change topics, and content related to activism within the [[:Category:Climate action]]. Browsing these may help give a feel of what we have here so far. Hope that is of some help, and please ask again if I can help further, [[User:Philralph|Philralph]] ([[User talk:Philralph|talk]]) 16:52, 2 January 2020 (UTC)


::On the one hand, it's not a proper noun - that's a good point. In terms of [http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/capital.asp rules of grammar], strictly it shouldn't be capitalized.
::Some other links more directly related to your questions: [[Help:Contributing content]], [[Appropedia:Policies]] - includes notes on 'Neutral Point of View' - more at [[Appropedia:Neutral point of view]], [[Appropedia:Pillars and values]], & more via [[:Category:Appropedia guidelines]], [[User:Philralph|Philralph]] ([[User talk:Philralph|talk]]) 17:09, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
::In practice though, terms which have an acronym (e.g. Carbon, Capture and Storage (CCS)[http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/emissions/ccs/ccs.aspx][http://www.open-sustainability.org/wiki/Carbon_Capture_and_Storage]) are often but not always capitalized. If I google for "appropriate technology," ignoring cases where it's part of a title, sometimes it's capitalized, and sometimes it's not.
::But "Appropriate Technology" is a distinct concept, and not a neologism - it's been around for decades, and there's a movement (admittedly an amorphous one) attached to it. Talk to people in permaculture and in grassroots sustainability and development projects, and there's definitely a shared understanding of the term, beyond the meaning of the two individual words.
::So, if we want to be strictly grammatically correct, we don't capitalize (same as Wikipedia, at [[Wikipedia:Appropriate technology]]). I'm okay with staying with that. I'm still wondering though - would it help us be clearer in our meaning if we capitalized? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 00:11, 21 October 2011 (PDT)


:::I was referring to the undefined entity, "Appropriate Technology," as a neologism, ''not'' the established concept of "appropriate technology."  If it were the name of a distinct movement, for example, that would be one thing; but as an "outsider," I'm still not seeing it as warranting the purported upgrade in status. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 14:37, 21 October 2011 (PDT)
:::Thanks a lot [[User:Philralph|Philralph]]! I had failed to find this information, this is exactly what I was looking for. [[User:Shapoklyak|Shapoklyak]] ([[User talk:Shapoklyak|talk]]) 13:37, 3 January 2020 (UTC)


== Tutti-fruity? ==
:I might be able to explain. Our server seemed to be compromised for a few days, but it was solved by [[User:Roger|Roger]] who was coincidentally working on the upgrade of Appropedia. We expect the site to be fully functional now, but please let us know if you find anything unusual. --[[User:Emilio|Emilio]] ([[User talk:Emilio|talk]]) 18:20, 2 January 2020 (UTC)


I found this, as a new page at [[Tooty -fruity processing]]:
::Thank you for this explanation of the recent bug. Still I would like to know how frequently such technical problems occur. Is there a log of technical issues and notifications? [[User:Shapoklyak|Shapoklyak]] ([[User talk:Shapoklyak|talk]]) 13:41, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
:::Hi Shapoklyak,
:::In the last 10 years, we have had less than 10 days of locked databases. This happens due to a DDOS, hacking, or massive spam attack. We are quite proud of our uptime over the last 13 years. Does that answer your question? Thanks! --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] ([[User talk:Lonny|talk]]) 22:35, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
::::Yes it does! Thanks. [[User:Shapoklyak|Shapoklyak]] ([[User talk:Shapoklyak|talk]]) 12:54, 5 January 2020 (UTC)


"Dear sir,
== A recent revert ==
how to good quality  making tooty- fruity from green papaya chips ,mango bar,mango pulp.pls explain this small unit project details send me my mail {{email|jagadeesan_vp|hotmail|com}}." {{unsigned|121.246.147.21|25 December 2009}}


Quite out of date now... This should be moved to a forum page when we get the forum set up. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 23:35, 20 October 2011 (PDT)-
I'm copying the following post from [[User talk:Auri]], in case [[User:Auri]], formerly 'Dove' (?) wishes to make a case in support of his/her edits [[User:Philralph|Philralph]] ([[User talk:Philralph|talk]]) 13:13, 18 January 2020 (UTC)


==RichardF for admin==
"Hi [[User:Auri]], thanks for your message regarding your edits to [[Inspiring quotes 2]]. I see you also similarly edited [[Wendell Berry]]. I have reverted these edits and will explain why: whilst some of the edits may have been helpful, the majority seemed to be destructive. This is because the original format of a quote is important in conveying what the author intended. For example a coma, which some might find unnecessary may have been deliberately included to signify a pause during a speech. Best not to over concentrate on pernickety detail, as this might seem a distraction, but to instead concentrate on positive and substantive edits. I see you created pages for [[Greta Thunberg]] and [[Naomi Klein]]. I also see that you have contributed before using the username 'Dove' (?) I'm copying this post to [[Appropedia:Village Pump]] in case you wish to make a case in support of your edits."
I nominated [[User:RichardF]] to be an Appropedia admin as seen at [[Appropedia:Administrators/Nominations]]. He has contributed a lot of useful thinking and edits as seen at [[Special:Contributions/RichardF]] including some very interesting ways of looking at information on Appropedia in his [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=Special%3APrefixIndex&prefix=RichardF&namespace=2 userspace]. --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] 18:14, 23 October 2011 (PDT)
 
(Note from [[User:Chriswaterguy|Chris]]: I'm not following the exact process as for now, the Village Pump is the one place I know people will see this and comment.)
 
Please place your endorsement or disagreement, and/or comment, below. We can close the vote in a week (or earlier if we're clearly going to have strong consensus):
*--[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] 18:14, 23 October 2011 (PDT)
* --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 09:06, 24 October 2011 (PDT)  '''Endorse'''! A lot of improvements in how Appropedia looks (portals, new table style) are thanks to Richard. We've seen things differently sometime, which is healthy, but Richard has always been friendly and positive throughout.
*--[[User:Tahnok|Tahnok]] 19:05, 25 October 2011 (PDT) Endorse! Lots of excellent contributions to Appropedia!
 
::Looks like we got distracted with all the site upgrades (and the usual wikiholic editing stuff...) Lonny, time to do the honors? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 23:23, 2 December 2011 (PST)
 
:::You are right! It is now done as noted at [[User_talk:RichardF#Adminship]].  Thanks! --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] 23:47, 12 December 2011 (PST)
 
::::Thanks, guys! I wonder what I should do next?!  ;-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 11:23, 13 December 2011 (PST)
 
== (minor) Mention on BoingBoing ==
 
Boing boing has an interview with Vinay Gupta that links to Appropedia! [http://boingboing.net/2011/10/24/tools-to-not-die-with-an-interview-with-vinay-gupta.html Source] --[[User:Tahnok|Tahnok]] 19:09, 25 October 2011 (PDT)
 
[[Image:Vinay and Ganesh.jpeg|thumb|right|upright=1.2|Vinay and friend]]
:Cool! I love the comment below the story: "What the hell IS a hexayurt? ... at first I thought it was some kind of nepalese yoghurt"
:Vinay's a great thinker, and a great human being. You've prompted me to finally upload this pic of him, from 2008. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 13:05, 26 October 2011 (PDT)
:Thanks again - I just blogged this on the Appropedia Foundation blog: [http://blogs.appropedia.org/2011/10/29/vinay-gupta-influences/ Vinay Gupta and his influences]. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 07:44, 29 October 2011 (PDT)
 
== Occupy Sustainability ==
 
Hi everyone,
 
Check out [[Occupy Sustainability]] - fun and practical green ideas for protesters.
 
"Like" it if you're on FB, and share - especially send it to any protesters you know. We've had an increase in traffic lately - would be great to keep that trend going. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 13:32, 26 October 2011 (PDT)
<br clear=all>
 
== Interesting quotes ==
 
<div Style="float:right">[[File:CarsonQuote.jpg]]</div>
I was reading some interesting quotes when it occurred to me that it might be interesting to have some interesting quotes on Appropedia, such as on the Main Page.  For starters, I took one from those I posted at [[Wikipedia:Portal:Sustainable development]].  The complete list of quotes for that portal can bee seen at [[Wikipedia:Portal:Sustainable development/Selected quote]]. Here's an example. <br>
--[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 13:49, 26 October 2011 (PDT)
 
:I like the idea of good quotes. I'm sure we could come up with some different, interesting and informative ones, too.
 
:We have the {{tl|quote}} template (and the broken {{tl|quotation}} template, FWIW) but we could make that better looking - and the exact look we want depends on the context. Relevant and informative quotes can also be great in articles - see {{tl|text box}} which I made partly with quotes in mind. And I'm pretty sure I've seen a wiki where the CSS made <nowiki><blockquote></nowiki> tags put big quotation marks before and after the text - I liked that. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 11:58, 29 October 2011 (PDT)
 
::Those presentation templates are more for use in articles.  I was thinking more along the lines of portal-style quote presentations.  I put a box here, but it disabled the edit links, so I removed it.  This time, I replaced the quote with an image of the box quote. If the quotes were on the home page, I would suggest it be laid out as a portal box. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 17:05, 29 October 2011 (PDT)
 
== Offer of assistance with graphic design... ==
 
We had [http://blogs.appropedia.org/2011/08/28/intellectual-property-public-domain-internship/#comment-4181 a comment] on the Appropedia Foundation blog, very supportive of our work and offering "layout, text, graphic or vector/logo designs".
 
I know we need help with our UI, but graphic design is really not my area or my strength. I've responded, and suggested that help with a brochure would be really appreciated, but maybe there are obvious things I'm missing? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 11:07, 1 November 2011 (PDT)
 
== Big move of topic category pages  ==
 
Re the [[#"Category articles" about to be moved to mainspace|promise I made above]] to move "topic category" pages into the main article space, I never managed to make time for this... so I did it tonight, instead of sleeping :-). This helps us be more consistent and avoid confusion, esp by newcomers.
 
I'd really appreciate it if some people could have a look through these and see if I've made any obvious mistakes. (I already found and fixed a couple.)
 
These are the former categories that have been moved to mainspace, history intact. If you'd like to help, you could add an intro sentence to one or more of these - that would make it look a lot better. (Just a simple description - e.g. from based on the opening of the main article): [[Africa]], [[African American Environmentalist Association]], [[Air pollution]], [[Appropedia Action Groups]], [[Biogas]], [[Cogeneration]], [[Constructed wetlands]], [[Ecuador]], [[GIS]], [[Green businesses]], [[Green power]], [[Hybrid vehicles]], [[Industrial ecology]], [[Integrated cooking]], [[International Development Design Summit]], [[International development]], [[Land use]], [[Lawnmowers]], [[Living roofs]], [[Mobility and rehabilitation]], [[Nanotechnology]], [[OLPC]], [[OSU Student Sustainability Initiative]], [[Peace Corps]], [[South Asia]], [[Thermal curtains]], [[Toilet designs]], [[Vaccine refrigeration]], [[Wastewater]].
 
I also found these cases of redirect to category, where the category had no topic content. So I made a {{tl|topic page needed}} notice to invite the reader to start the page, and added it to these: [[:Category:Aceh]], [[:Category:Andhra Pradesh]], [[:Category:Bamboo construction]], [[:Category:Bamboo]], [[:Category:Banda Aceh]], [[:Category:Construction]], [[:Category:Creative Commons]], [[:Category:Culture and community]], [[:Category:Earthen construction]], [[:Category:Earthen plaster]], [[:Category:Earthquake safety]], [[:Category:Ecocities]], [[:Category:Economics]], [[:Category:Ferrocement]], [[:Category:Refrigeration]], [[:Category:Materials processing]], [[:Category:Appropedia site development]], [[:Category:Reverse osmosis]], [[:Category:Food crops]], [[:Category:Finance]], [[:Category:Health and safety]], [[:Category:Groundwater]], [[:Category:Haiti]], [[:Category:Heating and cooling]], [[:Category:HIV]], [[:Category:Humboldt County, California]], [[:Category:Hygiene]], [[:Category:Kitchens]], [[:Category:Languages]], [[:Category:Mexico]], [[:Category:Networking]], [[:Category:Nicaragua]], [[:Category:Philippines]], [[:Category:Policy ideas]], [[:Category:Prevent waste]], [[:Category:Pumping]], [[:Category:Santa Clara County, California]], [[:Category:Showers]], [[:Category:Stoves]], [[:Category:Sustainable business practices]], [[:Category:Sweden]], [[:Category:Technology for temporary communities]], [[:Category:UK]], [[:Category:United States]], [[:Category:Water filters]], [[:Category:Water purification]].
 
Please let me know about any other category pages that need to be moved. There are a few that I'm unclear about [[User:Chriswaterguy/Wikignome/Categories to rename|listed here]], so we'll have to talk to the people that manage those. (In the case of the academic pages, the instructors seem happy to do it this way, so until we come up with a better model that makes them happy, I'm inclined to leave those be.) --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 11:59, 5 November 2011 (PDT)
 
== CAPTCHA alternative ==
 
How do these [http://textcaptcha.com/demo '''Text CAPTCHA questions'''] look?
 
I like the concept, especially as the CAPTCHA we have now isn't keeping the spammers out. But I'm concerned that they'd be confusing to users who aren't native English speakers. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 12:45, 7 November 2011 (PST)
 
== CAPTCHA not enough to stop spam... ==
 
"The only tested sites where CAPTCHAs couldn't be broken were Google and reCAPTCHA. " - [http://www.pcworld.com/article/242930/researchers_defeat_captcha_on_popular_websites.html Researchers Defeat CAPTCHA on Popular Websites]
 
We have reCAPTCHA, but we're still getting hammered by spam. (We're stopping it, but I'd rather be doing real work and I'm sure that's true for the other admins too). Either the spammers have better tech than the researchers are using, or there are humans entering the CAPTCHAs in spam attacks. I've heard about people in Eastern Europe being paid low wages to spam, and it is probably a semi-automated process, so I think this is something we need to address.
 
I've mentioned it elsewhere, but I'd like to invite users fill out a couple of questions when registering - one simple question or instruction (like "what color is the sky?" or asking them to enter a certain word) which would be required, plus a couple of other real question (about their interests, or "what brought you here?"). That makes the spammers easier to pick. We could still let anons edit - most of the spam comes from registered accounts rather than anons.
 
I'm not suggesting we stop using CAPTCHA - there are legions of spambots out there waiting to hammer us harder if we do that. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 23:18, 9 November 2011 (PST)
 
[https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?hl=en_US&formkey=dHJEanRPMUpvZDhiOEhUMV9tbXhmWXc6MQ#gid=0 Here] is a registration form for a wiki (our friends at Greenlivingpedia) using Google Spreadsheets. That also gives some data about new users, and an invitation for them to say something about the site. (There are some things we would probably change, but this is very close to what I have in mind.)
The slight barrier to entry can actually make joining seem more desirable - I don't think it does much harm. And instead of our new user log being a case of "spot the genuine editor" we'd have a list of all real people. If a number of us check for new users daily, the wait for approval should be very short. I'd like us to continue allowing anon edits (anon edits aren't the spammers at the moment, anyway).
 
I'm posting it here first rather than to the tech team, as I'd like to get wider feedback on the concept. How does it sound? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 10:17, 10 November 2011 (PST)
 
:We should look into using the upcoming semantic mediawiki tools for user registration. I am not sure if there is already an existing tool that works (e.g. http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:SemanticSignup seems to not work with reCaptha). Thanks, --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] 11:25, 10 November 2011 (PST)
 
::That sounds good - especially if we can set it to auto-approve users that pass certain tests. If it works as I hope, we could get by without reCAPTCHA (and possibly without any conventional CAPTCHA, by doing the spam-checking through questions in the form). --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 21:13, 10 November 2011 (PST)
 
== Community space ==
 
I've been thinking a lot about how to help people feel part of the community here.
 
What if we create a new namespace called "Community:" or something similar? This page could become "Community:Village pump" and it would be grouped together with all other community pages. Then:
* If we add forum features (whether a wiki-based forum in the near-term, as I hope, or LiquidThreads-based discussions in the longer term) they would fit perfectly in a Community namespace. We'll need to test that idea out, but I think it will work.
* We could then start a couple of community pages around specific topics, where people can discuss that topic area, ask questions and help each other with developing pages in that area - a bit like the WikiProjects on Wikipedia, but I'm thinking of something more friendly, as much about the topic itself as about the Appropedia pages. As the first couple of pages gather activity, we could slowly add others. (It's important not to have inactive "community" pages if we want things to be interesting, so starting small and encouraging those is key. So we must start with topics where we have some activity and some enthusiasts already.)
 
The upsides are:
* Clearer "branding" for community pages - i.e. people see the big "Community" in the title and know what kind of page they're on - and get a bit of subliminal advertising telling them they're in a community, so they can join in :-).
* Creating a connection between forum-type pages and collaborative pages.
* Easier management - someone interested in keeping in touch with all the community space happenings can track the RecentChanges filtered for that namespace. (This can be done for any namespace, e.g. [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?namespace=4&days=30&title=Special%3ARecentChanges changes to the "Appropedia" namespace].) There's also [[Special:AllPages]], filtered by namespace - another useful tool for keeping tabs on things. (I think we would can [http://www.mwusers.com/forums/showthread.php?14222-Disable-discussion-function disable talk pages][http://www.mwusers.com/forums/showthread.php?8482-Hiding-the-discussion-tab] for this namespace - that would make monitoring AllPages and RecentChanges more reliable too.)
 
I don't see any downsides, aside from ''very slightly'' adding to the complexity of the structure of Appropedia. I think that's more than offset by the added clarity.
 
Activity on community pages is more important than just about anything else that happens in Appropedia space, so I like the idea of honoring it with its own space, and giving community activity a bit of a boost.
 
Anyone else like the idea? Other ideas, modifications, shootings down? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 08:11, 18 November 2011 (PST)
 
== Block urls from new and anon users? ==
 
I just spent longer than I'd like rolling back spam on dozens of pages (close to 50 pages, at a guess). I'm also concerned that checking RecentChanges, we tend to see more spam than real contributions. I'd like us to spend more time encouraging new users and the like, rather than dealing with spam.
 
So, somewhat reluctantly, I suggest that starting now we block new & anon users from posting urls. That will slash the amount of spam - we'll still get some gibberish posted, but without being able to post urls, there won't be the same incentive to spam.
 
To make the restriction on new users less of a burden, we can reduce the time to become an auto-confirmed user, who can post links. Probably 2 days and 2 edits is enough - even 1 day and 1 edit would stop the vast majority of the spammers. Note that people could still post links without the http:// - so they wouldn't be live links. So genuine users could post useful links if they want, which can be made into live links later by a registered editor.
 
We should also ensure that any error messages that people get for posting urls are as friendly and explanatory as possible, preferably with a link prompting new users to register.
 
How does that sound? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 02:35, 26 November 2011 (PST)
 
:I see absolutely no good reason why Appropedia should allow itself to be hijacked by vandals.  I also believe legitimate editors should be willing to support neutralizing vandals by earning the right to edit. The question to me simply revolves around, "What's the threshold new editors must meet in order to earn this privilege?" 
 
:I like the communication approach Wikipedia uses at [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:User access levels]], particularly in the [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:User access levels#User groups|User groups]] section for Unregistered users, New users, and Autoconfirmed users. I didn't notice a page similar to this at Appropedia, at least not by that name. 
 
:I support restricting unregistered and new user editing access levels up to the restrictions necessary to virtually eliminate instances of vandalism in any form from these user groups.  --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 08:23, 26 November 2011 (PST)
 
::I've just turned on this filter: [[Special:AbuseFilter/3]]. If there's a problem and I'm not online to fix it, could an admin please go there and uncheck the boxes in the bottom section, so it can't do anything? Thanks.
::I've gone for a very light restriction, and we'll see how that goes. A user need to be registered for 2 hours and have made at least 1 edit to be allowed to add a link. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 06:59, 13 December 2011 (PST)
 
== Marking project pages ==
 
Is there a nice way we could mark pages as "projects"? Since we have projects, and topic pages, and how-tos all together, navigation would be helped and confusion reduced by having a nice header or tag at the top of a page to tell the reader in 0.1 second that this page is a project.  (i.e. using color and standard layout so the visitor doesn't have to read it each time)
 
This was prompted by [[Power Generation from Mechanical Devices]] - I was about to rename it to lower case, standard for topic pages, then I realized it's actually a project page. (It still needs renaming, of course.) --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 23:43, 2 December 2011 (PST)
 
== Main Page redesign ==
 
{| align=center
|-
|{{n}} - <big>'''[[Appropedia:User experience/MainPageRedesign1|Main Page redesign candidate #1]] - browns, table frame'''</big>
|-
|{{n}} - <big>'''[[Appropedia:User experience/MainPageRedesign2|Main Page redesign candidate #2]] - greens, no frame'''</big>
|-
|{{n}} - <big>'''[[Appropedia:User experience/MainPageRedesign3|Main Page redesign candidate #3]] - blues, no frame'''</big>
|-
|{{y}} - <big>'''[[Appropedia:User experience/MainPageRedesign4|Main Page redesign candidate #4]] - transparent, no frame'''</big>
|}
 
 
Now that we have a substantial number of box-style portals for most of the key Appropedia topics, perhaps it's a good time to look at ways to incorporate some updated version of modular design to the Main Page.  As a discussion starter, I mashed together some basic portal design features already around, the current content on the Main Page, and rotating content for selected pages, highlighted projects and selected portal intros.
 
To be honest, a redesign of the Main Page is long overdue.  Personally, I only look at it to inspire myself to find something better.  I'm not at all sure who would want to go there more than once.  However, with a little sprucing up, I'm sure it could become a very welcoming and useful resource.
 
As an incrementalist, I prefer to just get things going and improve things one step at a time.  That's the wiki way! Just about anything that's more modular would be an improvement. Having a few candidates, trying out a few live trails sounds like a project to me.  The ball is rolling. Who wants to join in? :-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 06:16, 8 December 2011 (PST)
 
:Hi RichardF,
:I really like the incrementalist, wiki, get 'er done approach. I also think your [[Appropedia:User experience/MainPageRedesign1|Main Page redesign]] is far superior to our current one. I am a little concerned about the difficulty of editing, but I love that there is revolving content. I think we should implement this ASAP. Here are some of my stylistic comments:
:*I think we should remove the logo from the upper right, since it is in the upper left (and this would provide a little more space).
:*I would like to see announcements up higher as we sometimes have pressing announcements such as competitions that are ending soon.
:*Is there any way for the boxes to be worked into the existing borders? Does that make sense? I feel like there are too many hard borders and would love to see more use of open space (for example [http://akvo.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page AKVO], [https://energypedia.info/index.php/Main_Page Energypedia], or the more polished [http://wikiprogress.org/index.php/Main_Page wikiprogress]... ''here is their [http://wikiprogress.org/index.php?title=Main_Page&action=edit edit page]'').
:*I just asked nine different people about what they think. They all love that there is different content (especially the project image). They almost all dislike the the brown colors.
:Thank you!
:--[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] 20:56, 8 December 2011 (PST)
::I agree, the layout is quite nice, but the brown is not my favourite. --[[User:Tahnok|Tahnok]] 21:14, 8 December 2011 (PST)
 
:::Hi Lonny & Tahnok.  Thanks for the feedback. One nice thing about the modular approach is that revisions are realtively easy. Although not totally distinct, the box portal approach here separates a good deal of the content from the formatting. One of my next steps will be to make the Main Page layout a lot cleaner by moving more of the content to subpages. As far as colors and element positions go, I'll leave candidate #1 pretty much alone and start candidate #2.  That version will lose the table border, change the color theme to green (#3 could be blue ;) and rearrange some of the sections. This early example also just uses articles from the [[Portal:Appropriate technology|Appropriate technology portal]]. As I build a new Main Page selected articles section, (eventually edit protected) I'll add selected articles used in all the other portals too.  Candidate #1 already uses all the highlighted projects I know of and all box portal intros. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 05:36, 9 December 2011 (PST)
 
We now have <s>three</s> four candidates for review - yucky brown with too much dressing, clean green, cool blue and even transparent is a color!.  Go at it!  ;-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 06:16, 9 December 2011 (PST) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 14:02, 9 December 2011 (PST)
 
:Thanks Richard - they're all an improvement to the layout of the page.
:I like the ability to show new highlighted content each time, and to refresh that content by clicking. (Minor admin note, maybe stating the obvious: anything that gets transcluded onto the main page must be soft-protected at a minimum, so that vandals can't edit it.)
:Of the 3 remaining, I most like #4, transparent (you knew I'd choose that one, given my minimalist preferences). Next favorite is #2, as the color better matches the current skin.
:That's all I have to say about the design - I'd be happy to see that go live ASAP. (Any objections?) :In terms of content, I'd like us to trim the first section right back - keep it short and punchy, and to let the announcements come up higher. And to trim the "selected page" to bring it closer to the length of the highlighted project.
:Ok, I've had a first go at the [[Appropedia:User experience/MainPageRedesign/Intro|first section]] ([http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=Appropedia:User_experience/MainPageRedesign/Intro&oldid=193274 old version], [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=Appropedia:User_experience/MainPageRedesign/Intro&diff=193395&oldid=193274 diff]). The wording and maybe the format need work, but it's much shorter, and I think a bit closer to just the essentials. Thoughts? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 05:45, 11 December 2011 (PST)
 
::As far as page protection goes, I assumed in the design all the pages showing on "Welcome to Appropedia" wold be admin-only editable. With that in mind, I'll start moving all the new subpages to be under it. The current exception is the collection of Highlighted projects pages and their layout page.  They could be moved, copied or protected in place.  My preference would be to move or copy then protect under the site welcome page. Then, everything could be found much easier.  The original design of Selected pages & Highlighted projects intentionally had different sizes, with other types of boxes under projects for balance. Because all these pages are independent of portal subpages, shorter versions of the selected pages can be cut back for here without disrupting the portal layouts.
 
::Just to make sure admins (esp., Lonny ;) know, this design includes just about all content in subpages. That means the Welcome page mostly just formats the page layout features.  In addition, ''every content subpage can be accessed directly from the Welcome to Appropedia page without editing it!'' That's because the sections are based on the box-header template that includes a direct subpage "edit" link on the right side of the box-header bar (along with a "watch" link to the right of it). So, that means even though the overall design is more complex, the most frequent type of editing (section updates and tweaking) actually will be simpler.
 
::The next decision, as I see it, would be for Lonny to decide which main layout style he wants and copy it over to the live page.  After that, wiki away! :-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 08:48, 11 December 2011 (PST)
 
:::4 and 2 are my favorites as well. I think we should go live some time tomorrow night after collecting a tiny bit more feedback. In the meantime, can we replace the wording ''"Show new Selected page, Highlighted project & Selected portal"'' with a super-scripted or parenthesized ''" - refresh"'' next to ''"Selected page"'' and ''"Highlighted project"''? I think it would look much cleaner and easier to understand. The portal would refresh as well, which I think is fine without going through the trouble (I am assuming it would be more code) of putting a ''"refresh"'' next to ''Portal'' as well.
:::Thank you, --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] 14:01, 11 December 2011 (PST)
:::If you have facebook, vote for your favorite new main page at https://www.facebook.com/?sk=question&id=10150448485984425. If not, please feel free to leave your vote here. Thanks, --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] 14:21, 11 December 2011 (PST)
 
::::I changed the purge links on the candidate pages. That should be enough for now. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 14:37, 11 December 2011 (PST)
 
::::: [[Appropedia:User experience/MainPageRedesign4|Candidate #4 Transparent]] was the winner, with Green in second place. I really like both versions and look forward to seeing #4 as our new main page.
::::: A couple of comments: 1) Something has changed in the announcements box, where '''Intellectual property internship''' is now formatted differently. Is that on purpose, or how do we fix it? 2) What do you we need to do to get the main page set up? RichardF, you are now an [[User_talk:RichardF#Adminship|admin]] (welcome and thanks!) so you can edit the main page.
::::: Thank you, --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] 23:50, 12 December 2011 (PST)
 
{{y}} '''[[Appropedia:User experience/MainPageRedesign4|Candidate #4 - Transparent]]''' it is!  I made all the updates I'm aware of and protected all the related subpages.  All that's left for you to do is copy the winner over to [[Welcome to Appropedia]] and take it for a spin!  ;-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 11:15, 13 December 2011 (PST)
 
:It is done (and you are already editing it to make it better! :) ). In addition, I reduced the spacing between the lines in the intro. --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] 14:27, 13 December 2011 (PST)
 
::Thanks (aka, I should have fixed some things before I said it was ready ;-).  --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 16:35, 13 December 2011 (PST)
 
:::Nah, it's a wiki, we all do a bit :-). You did an enormous amount of work, and it looks great. Thank you! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 17:37, 13 December 2011 (PST)
 
== References to a coming ascension... ==
 
[[Off-The-Grid Raw Vegan Community On Big Island Hawaii]] has had this note added:
 
:<tt>THIS PROJECT HAS BEEN POSTPONED DUE TO OVERWHELMING LACK OF INTEREST. PLANNING WILL RESUME IN THE 5th DIMENSION, AFTER THE ASCENSION ON DEC 21, 2012. </tt>
 
While I'm glad they're planning ahead, I don't feel that references to this ascension really fit on Appropedia. I could tag it with {{tl|fact}} but that's a request for confirmation of an answer, whereas I'm not even agreed on the question :-).
 
I wasn't sure what to do, so I copied the whole comment to the [[Talk:Off-The-Grid Raw Vegan Community On Big Island Hawaii|talk page]], and left just the first (non-controversial) part on the article page. I added a note to "See the note on the [[Talk:Off-The-Grid Raw Vegan Community On Big Island Hawaii|talk page]].". --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 04:59, 11 December 2011 (PST)
 
:The topic of the [[Wikipedia:2012 phenomenon]] is encyclopedic.  In fact, the Wikipedia article even includes [[Wikipedia:Template:Eschatology]] that uses [[Wikipedia:Template:Sidebar with collapsible lists]]!!! ;-) Descriptively, a comment could be added like, "(For more information about "THE ASCENSION ON DEC 21, 2012", see [[Wikipedia:2012 phenomenon]].)" --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 05:49, 11 December 2011 (PST)
 
::Not sure how much attention of any kind it should have in mainspace. I'm probably being too serious in reply to your levity, but it's worth a thought... I'm inclined to think that since a user can look up Google, Wikipedia or whatever by themselves at any time, we should only have Wikipedia links where we know there's content there of significant relevance both to the context, and to what people come to Appropedia for.
::Re 2012, I think [http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/5337/2012maya.jpg this picture] explains how the whole thing started. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 19:58, 11 December 2011 (PST)
 
::Oooh, I just checked [[Wikipedia:Template:Sidebar with collapsible lists]] (and scrolled down to the example) and that's very shiny. I've often thought how we could benefit from more navigation templates, and I think that's one good basis for good nav templates. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 06:31, 13 December 2011 (PST)
 
:::See? [[Wikipedia:Karma|There's a reason for ''everything'']]!!! ;-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 11:21, 13 December 2011 (PST)
 
== Analysis page name ==
 
[[Street lighting Analysis]] - it's a student's work, so should it form the basis of a topic page (with some rewriting) or be clearly named and tagged as a [[project]]? Perhaps both - renamed as a project, and copied as the basis of a topic article. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 19:31, 13 December 2011 (PST)
 
== ''Today's'' popular pages! ==
 
I was looking for a way to automatically update the [[Welcome to Appropedia#Popular pages — more|Popular pages]] section of the Main Page (like Newest Articles and Newest Files), when I came across [[mw:Extension:CurrentPages]].  This MediaWiki extension shows a definable list of the most viewed pages within the past 24 hours. For example, the "''Today's'' popular pages" section could show the five most viewed pages within tha past 24 hours.  The "more" link then could show a page with the top 50 or so pages.  What do you think?  Of course, someone who actually knows how to add a MediaWiki extension would have to do ''that'' part. ;-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 06:40, 15 December 2011 (PST)
 
I found an example of this extension's usage at the extension's website. See [http://www.organicdesign.co.nz/Today%27s_most_popular_articles OrganicDesign - Today's most popular articles]. I didn't actually find the code at the [http://svn.organicdesign.co.nz/filedetails.php?repname=extensions&path=%2FCurrentPages%2FCurrentPages.php&rev=10&peg=10 CurrentPages.php] page, but perhaps the author, [http://www.organicdesign.co.nz/User:Nad Nad] could clue us in. Because the page visit counts update in real time, you ''also'' could watch these pages zoom up the chart as you check them out. In addition, the sidebar even updates the top ten popular pages! There must be an extension for that somewhere too! :-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 10:01, 15 December 2011 (PST)
 
:Fantastic! Let's see who can help us test it out... --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 19:46, 15 December 2011 (PST)
 
::I really like this extension. I am worried about the server impact. Our server is currently close to overloaded as it is, and the site is slower than it should be. This may be something that has to wait until after we do a server upgrade, unless someone that knows more than me can figure out how to reduce its impact on the server (or tell me that it is negligible). Thanks, --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] 15:06, 20 December 2011 (PST)
 
:::Would you be willing to contact the author, [http://www.organicdesign.co.nz/User:Nad Nad], to get some estimates on the likely server load? --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 18:01, 20 December 2011 (PST)
 
== Selected quotes on the Main Page ==
 
<div style="float:left; width:58%; margin-right:1%;">
Here's an example quote that uses the Main Page box style. I like the idea of putting quotes on the Main Page. My main concern at this point is where to find applicable quotes on Appropedia. Is the content out there? If so, where? What do you think of adding a section like this to the Main Page? --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 19:47, 15 December 2011 (PST)
</div><div style="float:right; width:41%">
{{:Welcome to Appropedia/box-header|<big>Selected quote</big>|&nbsp;|titleforegroundlink=white|TOC=yes|EDIT=yes|SPAN=yes|noedit=yes|nowatch=yes}}
<center>
{| class="noprint" border="0" style=" text-align:left; padding: 0; margin: 0; background-color:transparent"
|<div style="float:left;margin-right:1em">[[Image:Rachel-Carson.jpg|70px|Rachel Carson]]
</div>''The more clearly we can focus our attention on the wonders and realities of the universe around us, the less taste we shall have for destruction.''
<div style="text-align:right; margin-right:10px"> — '''[[wikipedia:Rachel Carson|Rachel Carson]]'''</div>
|}
</center>
{{:Welcome to Appropedia/box-footer‎‎}}
</div>
:I really like the idea. How about we collect, say, 20 quotes to start with? I'm thinking that some of the most interesting quotes, especially ones that people haven't seen before, will be those from designers and appropriate technologists. I'm sure we could find a bunch from people like [[Paul Polak]], [[E.F. Schumacher]] and Amory Lovins, who have written books about appropriate/sustainable technology. Then there's Victor Papanek (couldn't find much when I googled for quotes by him, but his books are great), Amy Smith and [[wikipedia:Category:Appropriate technology advocates|more]].
:There are also webpages like [http://designwashere.com/80-inspiring-quotes-about-design/ 80+ Inspiring Quotes about Design] - I quite like
:<blockquote>"Every designers' dirty little secret is that they copy other designers' work. They see work they like, and they imitate it. Rather cheekily, they call this inspiration.  — Aaron Russell"</blockquote>
:And [http://quotesondesign.com/ Quotes on Design]. I like
:<blockquote>"Always design a thing by considering it in its next larger context – a chair in a room, a room in a house, a house in an environment, an environment in a city plan.  — Eliel Saarinen "</blockquote> 
:It'll be worth doing a source check where possible (Google Books might help). Misquotes and misattributions abound. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 20:42, 15 December 2011 (PST)
 
::Cool. I'm not so much worried about finding relevant and reliable quotes outside of Appropedia. I was thinking more about the style I showed that uses a link to the person, in this case, "'''[[wikipedia:Rachel Carson|Rachel Carson]]'''." I like the quote, but the link goes to Wikipedia because Appropedia doesn't have an artilce on her. My concern is about having a link on the Appropedia Main Page that encourages readers to leave the site. Of course, the "simple" solution to that is just make a page here for anyone with a quote. As it turns out, I created the [[:Category:People|People]] category just yesterday. At that time, the category had nine articles and three subcategories.  That's a start, but creating this quotes archive probably will mean growing the articles about people too.  I'll call that a good thing. ;-)
 
::Other sources to look for quotes are [[Wikipedia:Portal:Sustainable development/Selected quote]] (where I got the Carson quote), related Wikipedia portal quote archives, and pages like [http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/E._F._Schumacher E. F. Schumacher sourced Wikiquotes] and [http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Amory_Lovins Amory Lovins sourced Wikiquotes].
 
::For starters, I'll get a quotes archive set up.  When it has enough content we can show them. I'll set them up so the content can be added to different pages with different styles, like the selected articles and projects can be used now. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 05:55, 16 December 2011 (PST)
 
<div style="float:right; width:100%; margin-bottom:-10px">{{:Welcome to Appropedia/Selected quote|noedit=yes|nowatch=yes}}</div>
Here we go. The [[Welcome to Appropedia/Selected quote]] is up and running! :-) I added the first four quotes and 40 subpages waiting to be quotified. The [[Welcome to Appropedia/Selected quote/Layout]] setup can handle source people without Appropedia pages by using the "|no link source=" parameter. The name will just show up unlinked. The examples shown here are from <nowiki>{{</nowiki>:[[Welcome to Appropedia/Selected quote]]<nowiki>}}</nowiki>. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 10:34, 16 December 2011 (PST)
 
:I added the Selected quote box to the main page at full width for the best horizontal balance. Some quotes are short and sweet, some are a bit more...longer. Right now, the list is at ten quotes, and growing! ;-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 17:47, 17 December 2011 (PST)
 
::Nice, thank you.
 
::I've invited suggested quotes to be added to [[Talk:Welcome to Appropedia/Selected quote]]. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 23:13, 17 December 2011 (PST)
 
== Energy & renewable energy areas ==
 
I've had some feedback about our "energy" and "renewable energy" areas: "http://www.appropedia.org/Portal:Renewable_energy is a duplicate of Energy, where should something be posted ?
 
My response: "Thanks for pushing us to think this through. We'll want to distinguish them... my thought is to have [[Portal:Energy]] mainly about efficiency, and issues with current energy production (coal-fired plants etc), and have it link to [[Portal:Renewable energy]], which is to focus on the details of renewables."
 
That could also be a guide to our categorization. How does that sound? Maybe it's stating the obvious, but it didn't seem obvious to me until now :-). --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 22:23, 15 December 2011 (PST)
:I have been considering tackling a re-categorization schema for our energy topics in my Engr370: Energy, Technology and Society course next semester. Of course, that should not stop us from making progress now. --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] 03:09, 16 December 2011 (PST)
 
<div style="float:right; width:41%">
{{:Welcome to Appropedia/box-header|<big>A quote that seems to apply here</big>|&nbsp;|titleforegroundlink=white|TOC=yes|EDIT=yes|SPAN=yes|noedit=yes|nowatch=yes}}
<center>
{| class="noprint" border="0" style=" text-align:left; padding: 0; margin: 0; background-color:transparent"
|<div style="float:left;margin-right:1em">[[File:Appropedia wordle.png|70px|Appropedia wordle]]
</div>''Whether you can observe a thing or not depends on the theory which you use. It is the theory which decides what can be observed.''
<div style="text-align:right; margin-right:10px"> — '''[[wikipedia:Albert Einstein|Albert Einstein]]'''</div>
|}
</center>
{{:Welcome to Appropedia/box-footer‎‎}}
</div>
 
::I've added a number of Appropedia content classification resources at [[User:RichardF#Contents]]. To me, the basic question on this issue is, "What is the set of fundamental conceptual frameworks upon which Appropedia's content, structure and processes are based?" :-) Right off the bat, this question implies the answer will be "[[wikipedia:Faceted classification|multi-faceted]]" - different classification schemes to address different aspects of how things are related. The current [[Wikipedia:Portal:Contents|Wikipedia Contents navigation structure]] I helped design and implement includes a major domain on content topics and a major domain on the type of presentation of that content. At Appropedia, another major organizational domain is about processes, like projects, how-tos and courses. As far as the go-to organizers for Appropedia, I recommend using topical outlines as the basis for showing how subject matter concepts relate to each other. Other organizers, like categories, portals, navboxes, etc., can look to these outlines for guidance. Process-oriented domains like projects and how-tos also can be organized by these topical outlines. Some Appro-centric topical outlines and related lists can be seen at [[User:RichardF#Lists]]. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 07:09, 16 December 2011 (PST)
 
:::Looking at your page... not sure what you mean by "Article ratings, indexes, lists, outlines, navboxes and trees". (I can see why some of the articles are under "lists" but not sure about most of what's in that first box.)
 
:::Agreed that faceted classification is key. Will spend some time looking at your "Top 100 categories by proposed fundamental candidates". --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 06:10, 17 December 2011 (PST)
 
::::The topical outlines are in the box at [[User:RichardF/Contents]]. The other rows show alternative ways of displaying content, but the outlines can be the authoritative organizers. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 06:46, 17 December 2011 (PST)
::::One advantage of using ''linked'' topical outlines is that red links make up good candidates for article development drives. That's because another advantage of these outlines is the higher the link in the outline, the more ''important'' the article is to the topic. that's related to [[User:RichardF/Contents#Vital articles, top-level importance candidates]] and the discussion at [[Appropedia:Village pump#Vital articles – importance, quality and popularity]]. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 07:18, 17 December 2011 (PST)
 
:::::Now that [[Special:Book]] can save to Appropedia pages, topical outlines ''also'' can be used to help create books for the [[Appropedia:Books|Bookshelf]]! ;-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 18:59, 19 December 2011 (PST)
 
== Beginner's guide to Semantic MediaWiki? ==
 
It's great that we've got Semantic MediaWiki (SMW) working here now. I'm thinking about how to help people who still find it confusing (including me). It would be wonderful to have a page at [[Help:Semantic]] or [[Help:Semantic MediaWiki]] (with the other as a redirect) explaining:
* What SMW can do.
* How SMW is used on Appropedia.
* Templates and forms that we can use to get the benefits of SMW without having to do anything like coding.
 
The page could link to more extensive guides, but would be tailored for an Appropedian who's new to semantic functions.
 
And maybe someone can explain the new footers on redirect pages? E.g. on [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=Main_Page&redirect=no Main Page]. And there's currently a similar one on this village pump page:
 
<pre>Facts about Village pump                RDF feed
Template Welcome to Appropedia/Selected quote  + </pre>
 
--[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 17:20, 18 December 2011 (PST)
 
:I created the help page and the redirect. There are few projects that have better documentation than SMW so I believe there is little value in recreating anything more specific to Appropedia and have simply linked to the most useful pages to start with.
 
:There is nothing to be gotten out of having SMW installed without doing something exactly like coding. Tanstaafl. Semantic Forms can be setup as is the case with [[Portal:Medical Devices]] and that requires careful planning and implementation. See the Usage section there for specifics.
 
:The footer you are seeing is called the factbox,
:* http://semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Browsing_interfaces#The_factbox
 
:[[User:Jason Michael Smithson|Jason Michael Smithson]] 16:04, 20 December 2011 (PST)
 
::Hi Chris,
::The factbox at the bottom of redirects is probably going to stay there. Redirects are semantic data (convey a meaning like synonym). I am not sure if we can get rid of them site wide, but there is a magic word for getting rid of them on a specific page.
::After we get done with [[Portal:Medical Devices]] (over 100 more devices and a public launch by mid January) we will be working on an OSAT device form which will be of more use to more of our editors... then, with careful planning, we can start looking at even more semantic fun to be had (e.g. user pages, geocoding, etc.). For now:
::*Here is an exciting way to navigate the medical device data - http://www.appropedia.org/Special:BrowseData/Medical_Devices?_single.
::*There is an incredibly active community at http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_name=semediawiki-user.
::Thanks, --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] 16:42, 20 December 2011 (PST)
 
== New header for PV projects ==
 
I just added {{tl|pv project}} to a bunch of pages - it looks like this:
 
{{pv project}}
 
[[User:RichardF]] & I put the template together, and I ran my bot to add it on (hopefully) suitable pages. The idea is to tie together projects on a related theme, and to highlight some particularly interesting pages. I tried to avoid adding it to pages that already had a header, and pages where I wasn't sure. But I didn't check every page carefully.
 
Consider all edits as part of the wiki "[[A:BOLD|Be Bold]]" philosophy - feel free to revert or change as appropriate, or suggest ways to do this better. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 00:50, 19 December 2011 (PST)
 
:I notice that when a page is loading, the template is in "show" mode - only after the page is loaded does it switch to "hide". That's sligthly annoying on a fast connection, but would be quite distracting on a slow connection. I wonder if there's a way to change this by changing the order that the HTML code is loaded in? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 19:48, 21 December 2011 (PST)
 
== Pages with no useful content ==
 
[[User:RichardF]] has [[User talk:Chriswaterguy#Contentless pages|pointed out]] to me that there are a bunch of contentless pages on Appropedia - some blank, some with a tiny amount of content that's not useful. Richard pointed out [[Special:ShortPages]], very useful for finding blanked and otherwise useless pages. So I went through and I've deleted a bunch (more than 100), and turned a few into acceptable stub articles, but there are many more. Please have a look through [[Special:ShortPages|ShortPages]] and see if you can turn any of them into actual articles.
 
Some of the ones that are left are ones I found ambiguous - I checked the history of each before I deleted, and sometimes it seemed like a good page had been blanked, sometimes by the author. Not sure why - maybe a student who wasn't proud of their work? Some of the pages are leftover from moves that were done with copy-paste. Sometimes I make a redirect but I don't worry too much - there's a search function for people to use.
 
Just wanted to give a heads-up, and to invite feedback, esp if you think we're on the wrong track. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 20:58, 7 January 2012 (PST)
 
== An "Attic" for dubious articles ==
 
Speaking of deleting pages... Where there's any ambiguity about deleting a page, but the page is not suitable in its current form, one option is the Russian Wikipedia solution. That is, all unsuitable pages, e.g. about someone's cat, get moved to a namespace meant for that purpose. The pages can be recovered later - e.g. if the cat becomes famous, in Wikipedia's case ;-). For our case, we could move such pages to [[Appropedia:Attic/PAGENAME]]. Just an idea.
 
Another way is to move the article to someone's userspace. But the advantage of the "Attic" is that anyone can browse all such articles if they want.
 
Either way, best practice would be to uncheck the box to create a redirect when moving. If the page isn't very good, we don't want to direct people there from mainspace.
 
Maybe I'm thinking too much... anyway, please comment if you have preferences either way. And... happy new year! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 20:58, 7 January 2012 (PST)
 
:To me, the "Attic" sounds a lot like the [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Article Incubator]] - a place for nonindexed pages deemed worthy of further work before returning them to article space. All this raises three basic questions for me. What are the criteria for userfying a page? What are the criteria for throwing a page into the Attic/Incubator? Most importantly, what are the criteria for a page to remain in article space? The more I play [http://www.appropedia.org/Special:Random Surprise me!] the more I think there very easily could be (put your number here) of articles that wouldn't meet even basic criteria for inclusion in article space, and iffy in Attic/Incubator space. What this says to me is Appropedia article space absolutely could use some cleaning up, one way or another. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 17:17, 8 January 2012 (PST)
 
== New skin ==
I have been playing with Richard's new vector based skin for Apropedia. It rocks! If you want to play with it as well, copy the code from his page at [[User:RichardF/vector.css]] to your own vector.css page at [[Special:Mypage/vector.css]] and then select the vector skin from your "Appearance" preferences at [[Special:Preferences]].
 
So far, I have only found a few issues.
# External links are missing the arrow that denotes an external link. For example - http://www.pequals.com should have an arrow after it.
# On mobile devices the read tab is cut off (tried with a few resolutions and devices). This is not a high priority fix and would be partially mitigated by the mobile skin we are working on.
# We need to add in the google translate, facebook like (and maybe share) and google plus features. We probably can do this through common.css as shown at http://offene-naturfuehrer.de/w/index.php?action=historysubmit&diff=33865&oldid=33600 for the FB and Google+ features.
 
Has anyone found any other issues? I want to make this change by Monday, if there are no objections.
 
Thank you! --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] 15:54, 10 January 2012 (PST)
 
:Hi Lonny, thanks. Issues like #1 were because the original css skin files use abbreviated subpage versions of the image urls. So, any links I didn't make full length (like the external link icon) broke when I moved the css file to my (your) area. I updated all those links in the user versions I saw, so that issue should be okay for testing now. I don't know about issues 2 and 3. The changeover would mostly amount to changing a few html color codes, copying over the new green images to the main images folder, and making those Google updates. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]]
 
::I've come across a minor issue with the Vector skin, but it's not unique to my changes. The search inputbox is in basic mode and it doesn't seem to respond to any changes. When I reviewed the [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Catalogue of CSS classes]], I still couldn't find any code to make the Vector search box look like it does there. But oddly enough, (because I used full-length image urls) when I copied my vector.css code to my corresponding Wikipedia page, the search box color changes worked there! Try it yourself if you want to see what it ''should'' look like!  ;-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 13:23, 11 January 2012 (PST)
 
::: Hi Richard,
::: Sorry, my brain is working slow right now. Where/how should I be checking the search inputbox (I tried [[Books]])? Thanks, --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] 19:50, 11 January 2012 (PST)
 
::::Hi Lonny, for the Vector skin, the "Search Appro/Wikipedia" box is in the upper right-hand corner of each page, just below "My watchlist." On Appropedia, it's a white box with the "Go" and "Search" buttons. On Wikipedia, it's a box with a color gradient background, the disappearing word, "Search" and a magnifying glass icon inside it. Nothing I do to the css search code changes anything on Appropedia. When I add the exact, same code to my Wikipedia vector.css page, the colors change to green. I don't know where whatever is different about Appropedia's setup disables the Vector search box styles. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 20:16, 11 January 2012 (PST)
 
::::::I can't remember but I think the combined search box thingy is a function of either the vector usbility extension or the search extension they are using --[[User:Tahnok|Tahnok]] 19:55, 19 January 2012 (PST)
 
:::::::Thanks! If you can pin down where the code is and if we need to add something, that sure would help.  :-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 04:07, 20 January 2012 (PST)
 
[Untabing] That would be in [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Vector#SimpleSearch Extension:Vector] which I would recommend installing for the myriad of usability enhancements it brings to Vector --[[User:Tahnok|Tahnok]] 20:47, 21 January 2012 (PST)
 
:Sounds good to me! I second the motion! :-)  --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 21:09, 21 January 2012 (PST)
 
== Article feedback tool ==
 
A new version of the article feedback tool is being tried on Wikipedia (about 0.3%): [[mw:Extension:ArticleFeedbackv5]]. I'd really like to try this out. Thoughts, before we get an intern or someone else in the tech team to test it out? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 15:58, 20 January 2012 (PST)
 
:How do you want Appropedia to use the feedback? :-) --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 12:56, 21 January 2012 (PST)
 
== Stanford Takes Online Schooling To The Next Academic Level ==
 
Here's an interesting news story worth noting.  :-)
 
{{quote|Over the past six months, [Sebastian] Thrun has spent roughly $200,000 of his own money and lined up venture capital to create [http://www.udacity.com/ '''Udacity'''], a new online institution of higher learning independent of Stanford. "We are committed to free online education for everybody."
 
Udacity is announcing two new classes on Monday. One will teach students to build their own search engine and the other how to program a self-driving car. Eventually, the founders hope to offer a full slate of classes in computer science.
 
|National Public Radio: All Tech Considered, January 23, 2012|[http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2012/01/23/145645472/stanford-takes-online-schooling-to-the-next-academic-level '''''Stanford Takes Online Schooling To The Next Academic Level''''']}}
 
{{#widget:YouTube|id=WgNCrWB3JNE}}
 
--[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 12:39, 24 January 2012 (PST)
 
== Weapons? ==
 
I dont know if Appropedia has dealt with this before - but what is the policy on weapons? I realize that any technology can be used for good or bad -- but some clearly have a more likely use for bad...e.g. [[blackpowder]]. Yes there are lots of places on the internet or in most libraries you could get this information - and yes there are plenty of legitimate appropriate tech uses for it (e.g removing tree stumps). Do we ever draw the line? E.g. is it ok to post how to make a pipe bomb for removing tree stumps? or the plans to make a dirty bomb in order to create a wildlife refuge? Recently thingiverse had a similar problem as people started uploading components for automatic weapons. It is kind of a sad commentary on that state of humanity that this is even something we need to think about. However, appropedia and the web in general are made up of very diverse political viewpoints. I think we should carefully consider having some clear policy. {{unsigned|Fixer|29 January 2012}}
 
:Excellent question. It's a tough question, but my leaning is ''not'' to allow information on weapons. I'm normally not a fan of censorship, but I don't think weapons fit well with the aims of Appropedia. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 09:53, 15 February 2012 (PST)
 
== Speculative and potentially dangerous content ==
 
How should we deal with speculative content? What if it's for potentially dangerous applications, such as designing microlights and other aircraft?
 
I've moved some content of this type to userspace, and deleted some content that I was particularly concerned about. See the discussion at [[User talk:KVDP #Your autogyro]] and [[User talk:Chriswaterguy #Aircraft images]] for some of my reasoning.
 
But I'd like to know what you, fellow Appropedians, think about this. ([[A:Be bold|Be bold]] is a great policy, but I try to be less bold with admin actions.). --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 21:03, 23 February 2012 (PST)
:My first question would be about the legal implications. Aviation is heavily regulated in most civilized countries, so we'd have to avoid steering anyone in an illegal direction. My second question would be about whether the technology in question makes any attempt to be sustainable. Powered flight in its current form is (probably) the branch of transport technology most dependent on fossil fuels, in particular liquid fuels from petroleum. Powered flight places severe demands on the energy storage to weight ratio of an energy carrier. Flying is one of the most unsustainable activities an ordinary person might engage in. If {{SITENAME}} is going to promote any kind of flying, it should not rely on burning fossil fuels. Unless someone has figured out a way to do that, I think we have an endless number of more appropriate and sustainable things to write about. --[[User:Teratornis|Teratornis]] 20:53, 28 August 2012 (PDT)
::Great points. If someone has designs for a solar and/or human powered aircraft that has actually flown, I'd be happy to see this on Appropedia (with a big safety disclaimer, of course, plus something about regulatory issues). Then we're talking demonstration technology rather than practical transport solutions, but these things have value in technological development.  --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 02:31, 11 September 2012 (PDT)
 
== "Create a page" link in sidebar ==
 
I added a [[Help:Creating a page|Create a page]] link to the sidebar. That will hopefully lower the barrier-of-confusion for newbies.
 
It might increase spam and crap as well - let's keep an eye on that, and consider placing a notice on the "create a page" page to ask people to think twice. (Won't reduce spam, but might reduce random junk.) I'll add a link to the sandbox, for now. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 10:12, 3 March 2012 (PST)
 
== URL to black list ==
 
There has been a lot of spam pointing to www DOT bigfreddy DOT com/nl/foto/aluminium/foto . Perhaps a domain we could blacklist? --[[User:Tahnok|Tahnok]] 07:19, 12 March 2012 (PDT)
 
:Thanks. I hadn't noticed that, or your comment, till now. I can't see any reason for anyone to post links to that site, on Appropedia, so I added the whole domain to [[MediaWiki:Spam-blacklist]]. I think the best approach is to use your judgement (since you have edit permissions for the blacklist) - we can always revert if there's a problem. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 04:11, 15 August 2012 (PDT)
 
== Capitals in titles - change the convention? ==
 
I'm seeing a lot of new pages - often really great new pages, like [[Freeplay Fetal Heart Rate Monitor‎]] - go up with each word capitalized. Maybe we should make that the convention from now on.
 
The guideline I was using was:
* All lower case for topic pages (except proper nouns, and except the first letter of the title, which is case insensitive)
* Capitalized words okay for project names, business names, etc.
 
But... whichever we do, we'll have to explain it and enforce it sometimes. And people will figure out the policy by looking at how other pages are named. So there's a good argument for going with the simplest naming convention that we can. And that would be: Capitalize every word, like [[Water Purification by the Ecosystem]] or [[Freeplay Fetal Heart Rate Monitor‎]].
 
Make sense? Feel free to shoot it down, as long as we come to a consensus. The lack of consistency is bugging me, and looks unprofessional IMO. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 10:46, 14 March 2012 (PDT)
 
:Sounds like a good naming convention to me, but I am not strongly attached to this point of view. --13:37, 14 March 2012 (PDT)
 
::I just thought of a problem, though - if we do this, then the natural way to link to articles would be with the capitalized titles - including "Water Treatment" and "Poverty Alleviation", which in regular English would not be capitalized and it Just Looks Odd. Then there's the question of whether all headings within pages would be capitalized in the same way.
 
::That makes me lean towards sticking with lower case as default for topic articles. But whatever we do, I'd like us to be clear on it, so we can start applying the policy and get a consistent look. (And it's not just the look - it's harder to link to articles if you can't predict how they're capitalized.) --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 12:24, 17 March 2012 (PDT)
 
The fundamental issue here seems to be the disconnect between two basic title capitalization styles - [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Article titles#Article title format|Wikipedia sentence caps]] vs. [http://www.writersblock.ca/tips/monthtip/tipmar98.htm academic/publication title caps]. Wikipedia uses sentence caps style because [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Manual of Style (capital letters)#Section headings|that makes it easier to wikilink titles (and headings)]] within articles. Some folks here use title caps style because, well, they can...and they like it for one reason or another. 
 
Appropedia does have something, but not much to say on the title capitalization style topic. As [[Appropedia:Policies#Voluntary Guidelines|a voluntary guideline]], "Follow Naming conventions. In short: Don’t use capital letters, except for the very first letter (and that's automatic, anyway); except for proper names (people, places, organizations)." The more detailed [[Help:Page naming#General guidelines|proposed guideline]] suggests, "Page names in Appropedia should: have only the first letter of the first word capitalized, e.g. Appropriate technology, unless it is: a proper name, the name of an organization, the title of a publication."
 
With no policy here about title capitalization style, it's hard to say what they actually should look like. The publication title capitalization style, when applicable, makes sense to me. A broader, academic paper capitalization style also makes sense to me for projects and other course-based pages. The rub, of course, is managing any policy or guideline, especially if it would require extensive changes to existing pages and practices.
 
My preference for a general writing style policy, or at least a guideline would be to say Appropedia adopts the [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Manual of Style|Wikipedia Manual of Style]] by reference, with exceptions. This would mean that, unless an explicit exception is noted, e.g., title capitalization style for publications, the Wikipedia Manual of Style applies to Appropedia. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 20:55, 30 March 2012 (PDT)
 
== Service learning pages - have a look over  ==
 
I've been working on [[Appropedia:Service learning]] and related pages. I've been wanting to do a big push on service learning, including recruiting interns, and fixing up these pages will help a lot with presenting what we do.
 
It would be fantastic if anyone could look over the page, see if it makes sense, and give feedback or improve the wording, or perhaps make the navigation template nicer & more compact, or help to work on the section on relevant areas of study (currently headed [[Appropedia:Service learning #Science, engineering, health and humanities|Science, engineering, health and humanities]]).
 
I have other work to focus on for a few days - will be back on this task after that. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 21:13, 16 March 2012 (PDT)
 
:(Cough, cough.) As I say, feedback or [http://www.appropedia.org/Special:RecentChangesLinked/Category:Appropedia_service_learning edits] would be appreciated on the [[:Category:Appropedia service learning|pages related to Appropedia service learning]]. ;). Thanks! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 02:04, 19 March 2012 (PDT)
 
 
== Fair use for user pages ==
 
I put a {{tl|fair use}} tag on [[Media:Cthulhu-challenge.jpg]] - there's no justification for the image other than personal expression... but considering the internet runs on almost indiscriminate sharing of images, I'm thinking we could expand "fair use" here to include personal expression on user pages. Thoughts? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 02:00, 19 March 2012 (PDT)
 
== Faith, science & herbs ==
 
Perhaps someone who knows more about herbalism could comment... if we remove the stuff in [[Moonbased homemade herbal tinctures]] which is to be taken on faith, is anything left? I have no doubt that herbs have beneficial powers, but (A) what those powers are is not a simple question, and a scientific approach is best, and (B) I strongly suspect the moon-based aspect of it is a baseless belief. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 12:05, 30 March 2012 (PDT)
 
== Approforce! (Really?) ==
 
A question from our Facebook page - answer either here or there: [https://www.facebook.com/questions/10150727037084425/ What should we call a collaboration by a group of editors to improve a certain area of Appropedia, or to do a certain kind of task? This would help people know what needs work and what other people are up to, and provide a place to discuss strategy.]
 
Not many answers yet, but the most popular suggestions so far are Approcolab and Approforce. Not sure if I can make the question visible to non-FB users, so here's the full list:
* ApproCoLab
* Approjam
* Approclean
* Collabropedia
* DiaT
* Approforce
* Approject
* Approlab
* Approteam
* Collaboration
* ApproProject
* MetaProject
* WikiProject
 
I added Approforce, thinking that if I added something deliberately bad, others would come up with something better. Maybe it's not that bad... or maybe it really is. (Reminds me of the cry of "G-Force" from ''Battle of the Planets'' - showing my age...) Please vote & comment. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 06:18, 8 May 2012 (PDT)
 
== Recent changes IRC channel ==
 
I have set up an [irc://irc.freenode.net/#appropedia-rc IRC channel with recent changes], similar to those which Wikimedia Foundation runs for its wikis. So you can hang your bots or yourself there now and follow happenings on Appropedia in real time.
 
Similarly to Wikimedia channels, only Recent changes bot (<code>[appropedia-rc]</code>) can post on channel.
 
If you encounter any weirdness, feel free to contact me either via email or directly on IRC.
 
Enjoy the new way to follow Appropedia!
 
— [[User:Danny B.|Danny B.]] 07:58, 23 May 2012 (PDT)
 
:Thanks Danny!
 
:A general notice: The [irc://irc.freenode.net/#appropedia #appropedia channel] is also active. [[A:IRC]] gives instructions on joining (using your browser at http://webchat.freenode.net/ or using a client such as Pidgin, Chatzilla or xchat. Danny B., Amgine, Tahnok & I are often there. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 20:52, 9 June 2012 (PDT)
 
== Online schools ==
 
Here's a site many of us here might find interesting.
 
'''[http://www.onlineschools.org/ Online Schools] - Who We Are'''<br>
"Online Schools aims to be the premier portal for online education on the web. Our goal is not to revolutionize the concept of education, but rather to help bring people into the 21st century in terms of the way they perceive learning. Education is no longer simply about teachers and textbooks. In today's Internet age, education is now about infographics, blogs, e-books, web articles, YouTube, Wikipedia, and so much more. Thus, we at Online Schools do not propose to revolutionize education itself, but rather, we strive to revolutionize the way people think about and approach education.
 
"That said, first and foremost, we do believe that all individuals should have a strong foundation in traditional learning, evidenced by our emphasis on providing honest, up-to-date and readily available information on [http://www.onlineschools.org/online-schools/ accredited online schools]."
 
'''United States [http://www.onlineschools.org/guides/ Schools Directory]'''<br>
"Our Schools Directory is, in our opinion, the best online [United States] colleges and universities resource available anywhere on the web. Hundreds of Online Schools staff members have put in thousands of hours to compile the scores of information needed to create this unparalleled database.
 
"Our unique and fully comprehensive database provides you with valuable information about every online program that is offered at every school in every state across the nation in the following categories: Online Certificate Programs, Online Certification, Online Training Programs, Online Associates Degree Programs, Online Bachelors Degree Programs, Online Masters Degree Programs, Online MBA Programs and Online PhD Programs.
 
"You no longer need to waste your time trying to figure out how best to search for the most accurate or relevant information on the subject you are interested in studying. Simply use our directory, choosing your state and start browsing through the list of schools that offer pertinent online educational options. If your course of study exists in an online format, you will find it here, guaranteed."
 
--[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 06:13, 13 July 2012 (PDT)
 
== TOCbox template ==
 
Here's a new template - {{tl|TOCbox}} - that can come in handy for pages, like this one, with long tables of contents.  Among other things, you can set the width and height of this TOC-right-in-a-box. The default size is auto width and 500px high, about 25 lines. The optional parameters are listed below.
 
;Simple version
<pre>
{{TOCbox}}
</pre>
 
;Optional paramaters
<pre>
{{TOCbox
  |width=
  |height=
  |font-size=
  |border-width=
  |border-color=
}}
</pre>
 
;Defaults
  |width=auto - can be % or px
  |height=auto - can be px, 500px = about 25 lines
  |font-size=96% - can be px
  |border-width=0px
  |border-color=#A3BFA3 - can be name
 
Let me know if this template needs tweaking. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 13:12, 20 July 2012 (PDT)
 
I added the scrolling box feature to {{tl|TOC right}}, making the new template unnecessary.  This way, the new box capabilities already are added to existing {{tl|TOC right}} pages. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 09:33, 21 July 2012 (PDT)
 
After looking at some pages using {{tl|TOC right}}, I changed the box default height to auto, so that short TOCs don't have lots of white space below them.  The height still can be set for long TOCs to keep their display within the viewing window. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 13:01, 21 July 2012 (PDT)
 
:Accessibility note: This approach creates various accessibility issues. TOC is one of the most important parts of pages used for people with disabilities to navigate on page comfortably and this lowers down the comfort or in certain cases almost disables this navigation. Furthermore, on keyboard-less devices, such as tablets, scrollbar of scrolling area is not being displayed, so one may think that the TOC has say 25 items, while it has 50, but those are hidden and no indication of it. If I may suggest, I would strongly discourage you from using this approach.<br />Kind regards<br />— [[User:Danny B.|Danny B.]] 13:10, 21 July 2012 (PDT)
 
::Okay. I already changed to default height back to auto. Having over 25 TOC items causes it's own problems. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 13:49, 21 July 2012 (PDT)
 
:::Time to do some archiving. Wiki talk pages are messy - I want us to get some funding to put in either a forum that integrates well with MediaWiki, or a native wiki forum like DPLforum LiquidThreads. ([[User:JRWR]] insists he's ironed the bugs out of LiquidThreads on his wiki.) --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 00:13, 5 August 2012 (PDT)
 
== News for editors ==
 
Here's a nice idea:  [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktionary:News_for_editors Wiktionary:News for editors]. "This page keeps editors abreast of recent clarifications of or changes to policy or best current practice, major changes to templates, and the like."
 
It could also give news on new or lesser-known features and tools. For us, the news could include:
* [[Special:ReplaceText]] - tell an admin if there's a correction to be made on many wiki pages
* [[Help:Semantic MediaWiki|Semantic MediaWiki]]. (It would be great to have a simple example of "how you can use Semantic MediaWiki on Appropedia. I haven't learnt to use it yet, other than in the [[Medical devices]] area where it's already been set up.)
* [[Appropedia:Widgets|Widgets]]).
* {{tl|notice}} and {{tl|slim notice}} allowing you to create a notice with any text and a choice of colors and widths.
* {{tl|attrib}}
* {{tl|TOC right}}
First draft at [[Appropedia:News for editors]]. I need to attend to other things... I might do something in a few weeks if no one beats me to it. I'd be very happy if someone takes it on :-). --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 00:29, 5 August 2012 (PDT)
 
== Let's have a monthly meeting - 2nd Sunday of the month? ==
 
See [[Appropedia:IRC #Regular meetings]].  
 
2nd Sunday of the month, 10pm UTC. I think that's 3pm PDT (US Pacific Coast), and 8am Mon AEST (Australia).
 
Who's interested? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 04:24, 5 August 2012 (PDT)
 
: Sounds good to me! (5pm EST) --[[User:Tahnok|Tahnok]] 13:16, 5 August 2012 (PDT)
 
::Great! Let's start this month - Sunday 12 August (Monday morning in Asia/Australia/NZ). --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 10:16, 6 August 2012 (PDT)
 
==Some article Renaming==
Although I allready did a lot of work on it, there are still significant issues with [[vegetable oil as fuel]] and, [[Waste vegetable oil]], [[Pure plant oil as fuel]].
I would propose to rename vegetable oil as fuel to [[Plant oil as fuel]], Waste vegetable oil to [[Waste plant oil as fuel]]. The vegetable oil as fuel/Plant oil as fuel can then mention both (PPO and WPO), giving a reason of existance to this article.
Another thing I'd like to see renamed is [[Vegetable oils and fats]], can we rename this to [[Plant oils and fat]] I saw the term allready being used at http://www.cyberlipid.org/glycer/glyc0005.htm , and I feel that besides being more logical (as the oils aren't derived from vegetables), it will also increase traffick to the articles since it's immediatelly clear it isn't a copy of the -similarly named- wikipedia article. Let me know whether someone else or I can change the names, after that I can clean it up and add additional info
 
Can btw a Green tuning category be created at Portal:Green_living ? I'm especially thinking of  placing http://www.appropedia.org/PPO_single_tank_system and http://www.appropedia.org/PPO_two_tank_system in this category after we added a list of commercial companies distributing conversion kits for both. [[Special:Contributions/91.182.156.99|91.182.156.99]] 01:28, 6 August 2012 (PDT) aka User:KVDP
 
Hello 91.182.156.99 yeah nice work :)  I largely agree with your proposals - possibly 'used cooking oils' rather than 'waste plant oils' (in my mind a better description + helps to make it not be thought of as waste)
 
:: Hmm, used cooking oils sounds good, but then perhaps not only cooking oils may be reused ? Also, the short for it would be UCO, which sounds weird, and far-off from WVO, WPO (waste plant oils) is closer to this more commonly used term. 
 
I think there can be problems with listing kit vendors - I'll put something on the appropriate talk pages about this.  Think you may have kicked me back into doing some more work on the biofuels portal :) --[[User:Darren|Darren]] 04:51, 13 August 2012 (PDT)
 
:: Hi Darren, you can contact me further via my user page (user:KVDP). I see that you worked on something called the Open Biofuel Engine. Perhaps we can work on this further, I allready have a 3D design of a line engine (gasoline) which can run on several fuels. I think that by just integrating compression ignition rather than using spark plugs we can make it a "diesel engine" for running on biofuels.
[[Special:Contributions/91.182.31.72|91.182.31.72]] 08:33, 14 August 2012 (PDT)
 
==Projects==
I recently became more and more aware that the development of projects does not happen with a same pace as the development of articles. In addition, we often have several similar projects (for example several designs of chicken coops, ...). I am thinking that projects are being worked out more rapidly as the wiki itself as students at Humboldt probably get points for their project design (and for them, it thus helps to keep the project simple), but not really for articles not do they get extra credits for making their project really useful. I think it may be beneficial that other people would suggest projects (and perhaps articles) that are more meaningful/useful in the intrest of our mission. For example:
* LV/HV transformer construction manual; see http://www.isf-iai.be/index.php?id=69
* ISF rice huller 3D model (I still have 3D components from ISF, but the full thing still needs to be made
* manual oil presses (for extracting vegetable oil), ie the Journeytoforever presses, see http://www.appropedia.org/Decentralised_pure_plant_oil_fuel_production
* a open-design hot plate (cooker) design
* a open-design diesel engine capable of running on vegetable oil (see http://www.appropedia.org/PPO_single_tank_system ). The engine should have push rods, carburetter (no direct injection), perhaps base the PPO-system on the lovecraft biofuels system (simple, few parts)
* a open-design airoponics or air-dynaponics system (see http://www.appropedia.org/X_ponics ). This system should be replicatable in any nation (so using parts that can be ordered/attained in any country)
* a open-design (micro)turbine
* a 2-door design (doors with mosquito netting, hence screens) to keep out mosquitoes. It's similar in operation as a cleanroom
* A page on practical oxyhydrogen production for energy purposes, and perhaps production of the other zero-emission fuels aswell (ie biohydrogen, methane, ...)
* a design for a AT pulse jet (+turbine), for incinerating fuels more efficiently in combination with a fuel-based (preferably) or steam-based turbine
* ...
[[Special:Contributions/91.182.198.222|91.182.198.222]] 10:47, 12 August 2012 (PDT), aka User:KVDP
 
:Re "the development of projects does not happen with a same pace as the development of articles." True.
:"In addition, we often have several similar projects (for example several designs of chicken coops, ...)." Also true - eventually I think we'd have categories for them - or else we'd manage this somehow with [[A:Semantic MediaWiki]].
:"I am thinking that projects are being worked out more rapidly as the wiki itself as students at Humboldt probably get points for their project design" - yes. Also at [[MTU]] and sometimes other universities - see [[:Category:Service learning]].
Also sometimes for articles - see [[:Category:JMC330 International Mass Communication]].
:"I think it may be beneficial that other people would suggest projects (and perhaps articles) that are more meaningful/useful in the intrest of our mission." I agree - it's a matter of how to do it. I've used the {{tl|sp}} tag to add ideas to [[Category:Suggested projects]] (not very elegant, but it's the best I've managed to do within the wiki.) I don't think any of them have been taken up, but if we have a lot of students involved, looking for projects, more might happen. If we have a kind of advisory board making their suggestions for key areas to develop, that might get some more attention (in addition to community suggestions, of course).
:My conclusion is that we'd benefit from having a lot more classes involved. This is one of my goals, but I get sidetracked with doing day-to-day things on the wiki. I'm narrowing my focus, though, and I'll see what I can do in the next couple of months, together with anyone else interested in this. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 05:34, 20 August 2012 (PDT)
 
== Practical Plants ==
 
Hello Appropedia community!
I'd like to share with you the launch of a new semantic wiki for the permaculture community: [http://practicalplants.org Practical Plants].
 
It's an open (creative commons licensed) collaboratively edited plant encyclopedia and database, with a strong emphasis on practical horticulture. It currently covers: design functions, edible, material and medicinal uses, plant interactions (beneficial or detrimental), guilds/polycultures, ecosystem layer, cultivars and subspecies, problems & pests, crop harvest and storage, environmental tolerances & preferences, and of course propagation and cultivation information. We currently have over 7000 plant articles with full data from an import of the CC licensed PFAF database.
 
While I'm a keep permaculture practitioner, we chose to keep the scope to general organic agriculture to make it as accessible as possible to all interested in growing their own food with organic methods, but much of the data (eg. design functions, plant interactions, ecosystem layer) is of particular interest to practitioners of permaculture and agroforestry.
 
I'm the web developer behind the project, so here's a bit of technical information for those of you interested (skip to the next paragraph otherwise!). It's built on Semantic MediaWiki just like Appropedia, making heavy use of Semantic Forms to make all articles edible without having to know a jot of wiki markup. All plant data is stored as semantic properties and so all plants are searchable by their properties (eg. filter for all plants which tolerate very acid soil and permanent shade). Furthermore, plants are interlinked to form an intricate web of relationships using semantic sub-objects and intermediary pages, allowing data and descriptive text to be stored about the link (eg. Plant A has a ''positive'' impact on Plant B because it is a ''pest confuser''). Polycultures/guilds are stored as articles in their own right, with property links to the plant articles.
 
I'm a big fan of the Appropedia mission - I'm a huge proponent of the freedom of information, which is the reason we set off on the mission to create Practical Plants earlier this year.
 
I'm interested in ways our projects can work together. Practical Plants has a very specific focus and as such there are times that plant data raises questions which are outside of the scope of Practical Plants to answer. Eg. We define terms like ''Nitrogen fixer'', ''Mineral accumulator'' etc, but we think it is outside of the scope of Practical Plants to discuss ''why'' these things are so important, what ''role'' they fulfil within an integrated permaculture system, etc. Likewise, the extremely specific functionality required to maintain a thorough plant database is hard to fit within a wiki with a much larger scope like Appropedia. I'd be very interested in exploring inter-wiki links and any forms of mutual co-operation you might have to propose.
 
Andru Vallance
[http://practicalplants.org Practical Plants] and [http://cernunnos.es Cernunnos]
 
:Thanks Andru.
:To update others - Andru & I have been emailing, and chatting on [[A:IRC|IRC]], about how we can work together. The Practical Plants wiki is a great effort - very nice looking, with Semantic MediaWiki. We know from experience that [[How to make a successful new wiki|making a successful new wiki]] is very hard, but Andru is placed better than most because he's obviously very technically competent, and passionate.
:As for working together, we discussed jointly approaching PFAF about using the more open CC-by-sa license, and I think we discussed interlinking. Both those make sense.
:"the extremely specific functionality required to maintain a thorough plant database is hard to fit within a wiki with a much larger scope like Appropedia" - could you explain what you mean, Andru? I see some cool technical features on your wiki, but I don't see anything that would cause a problem if implemented with our content.
:As we discussed, my own preference is to share skills and create a single wiki. Linking articles within a wiki is elegant - it's what wikis are meant to do, and a big wiki enables a wonderful ability to click from one interesting article to another, to another... Linking between wikis is not the same; also, there will inevitably be replication. I'm also not sure if it's realistic to have two wikis with a single community - I've never heard of such a thing. So I've laid my cards on the table, and it's something we can revisit down the track if appropriate, but we can start collaborating in other ways in the meantime.
:And it's after midnight here, so thank you again, and goodnight. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 07:46, 14 August 2012 (PDT)
 
::Hi Chris & The Appropedia Community,
::Technically, there aren't any huge problems integrating something like Practical Plants into another wiki. I've developed a number of custom extensions to enable some of the functionality there, and it uses a huge number of semantic properties and templates to render articles, but these would only provide an inconvenience to maintain within a larger wiki, not a barrier.
::When I refer to the difficulties of maintaining a plants wiki-base within a larger wiki I'm referring to what I envision would be an organisacional difficulty and a lack of clarity over what something like Practical Plants is within a larger wiki. Practical Plants, for example, encourages through it's heavy use of forms a rigid article format. In many ways it is a wiki pretending to be a database. While users are able to use wikitext in form sections, they can only really append free-style wiki text to the end of the article. I think there could be a great deal of confusion in embedding a rigid database within a free-format wiki.
::Another important point for me is the branding. To attract the audience Practical Plants will require to build it, a separate and clearly defined identity is essential. It must be broad enough to attract gardeners of all types. I think this would be lost when embedded in another wiki. While there may be some cross over, I think there will be distinct contributors to broader sustainability/permaculture subjects and to plant articles. I believe we can attract an audience of contributors with the brand we have. I think it would be more difficult as a section of a more general wiki.
::I agree that the points you raised are potential benefits - a united community, easier inter-article linking, and so on. I believe, if we wanted to, there are ways those issues can be solved. For example, Practical Plants does not use the mediawiki userbase. I have created a Single-Sign-On (SSO) solution to share user accounts between our community forum, our wiki, and our blog. One account gives you access to all three pieces of software. I'm currently working on the ability for users to build points and achieve "roles" based on their contributions. Furthermore you can login via OpenID, Facebook, Google, etc... This could easily be extended to work with other wiki's, allowing a single community of users to edit multiple wikis and access a shared forum with a single account. It's certainly technologically feasible.
::I'm interested in exploring the idea of a future united sustainability/permaculture brand, providing a single-sign-on throughout a number of websites, and allowing navigation between them (eg. through a mast-head which resides above all sites).
::For now though, there are ways we could improve inter-wiki linking if desired. I could pen an extension, for example, which could provide a link with context on the receiving site (eg. a link from Appropedia > Practical Plants produces a bar which stays at the top or bottom of the browser pane with the message "You came here from Appropedia. Click here to return to ARTICLE NAME" and visa-versa. Furthermore, you could embed a subset of data from Practical Plants within a plant article on Appropedia with a "View more details on Practical Plants" link. At the moment, the license Practical Plants has for data doesn't allow this, but there are ways we can work on that as Chris stated.
::We don't want to push PFAF yet on license data. Practical Plants is very new and we'd like our initial relations with PFAF to be open and free of pressure. We'll leave that subject open for now to revisit in the near future.
::I'm interested in being involved in the ongoing development of the permaculture section of this wiki and finding ways which the two wiki's can co-operate and integrate both now and in the future. At present, I think it is in the best interests of Practical Plants to retain it's brand and separation of content.
::Thanks
::Andru
 
== "No ads" template - <nowiki>{{subst:no ads}}</nowiki>  ==
 
There have been some advertising links on wastewater related pages occasionally e.g. [[Septic tanks]] and [[Wastewater treatment effluent]]. They're on topic, but they don't add anything useful to the page. I've gone through and check, and removed the ones without value, and on those two pages I've now added a hidden notice in the links section, visible when someone edits the page or section:
 
<nowiki><!-- NOTE: PLEASE DO NOT ADD LINKS UNLESS THEY CONTAIN USEFUL INFORMATION. </nowiki>
<nowiki>Commercial links will be promptly deleted *UNLESS* they contain useful information about the subject. --></nowiki>
 
To make it easier to add this, I've made a template, {{tl|no ads}}, which has the above message. But, IMPORTANT NOTE: it must be "substituted" in like so:
 
<pre><nowiki>{{subst:no ads}}</nowiki></pre>
 
That will permanently change it from a template to the text itself. Otherwise the message won't be visible.
 
I hope that's useful. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 01:28, 15 August 2012 (PDT)
 
== Recent changes patrol - call for patrollers ==
 
I've just posted [http://blogs.appropedia.org/2012/08/15/tools-for-wiki-spam-warriors/ Tools for wiki spam warriors] on the Appropedia Blog. Highlighted tools:
 
''For admins'': A great and easy way to help is to keep an eye on the [[Special:NewestPages|'''NewestPages''']]. The spam articles are easy to spot by their titles. User pages need to be eyeballed.
 
''For everyone'': Keep an eye on [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?namespace=&tagfilter=n&title=Special%3ARecentChanges changes by new and anonymous users]. This is also good for spotting comments by visitors, difficulties faced by newbies, and good edits by newbies that we can say thanks for.
 
''For IRC-using super-geeks'': [[User:Danny B.|Danny B.]] set up a [irc://chat.freenode.net/appropedia-rc real time recent changes channel on IRC] (that link might work if you have an IRC client installed - see [[A:IRC]] for help), and he's been deleting spam that he spots this way.
 
''For me'': There's a spam filter which I maintain, checking and tweaking to ensure we keep blocking most of the spam before it hits the wiki, but avoid blocking good edits. If you notice any new patterns in the spam that's getting through, please let me know the details. I'm also happy to collaborate if someone else knows regex and wants to help write the filters.
 
I'm cutting back my spam patrol hours to do meta-Appropedia work like the internship program and fundraiser that I've been wanting to work on - I'll only do the spam filter from now on, and trust that the community can mop up the spam that sneaks by the filter. Thanks! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 05:16, 15 August 2012 (PDT)
 
== Appropedia manual of style ==
 
I'd like to see a consistent way of formatting Appropedia, and it would be great if we could decide on a few issues. None of them are huge issues, but we need to decide one way or another.
 
I know one source of inconsistency is that some of us are following Wikipedia standards based on their [[wikipedia:WP:Manual of style|Manual of style]], and others of us are following academic journal style guides. We won't resolve this in one discussion, but maybe we can start by discussing these few issues:
* '''Titles - plural or singular?''': I pushed for plurals in the beginning, and that's become the default for some of us. But sometimes I think my original idea was daft. There are some words where the plural isn't obvious (E.g. is it technology, as an uncountable noun, or technologies?)
* '''Template names''': I use all lower case and don't run words together, which makes sense to me. If we do them all in one reasonably logical way, it'll be easier to remember when we go to use a template.
* '''Headers at the beginning of articles''', e.g. ''Introduction'', ''Background'', ''Definition'', ''Abstract'', or a header that's identical to the page title. I think the pages will be clearer if we remove these, and that would bring the first sentences closer to the top of the page (by dropping the table of contents lower down as well as by losing the header). But journal papers are required to have a header for the intro, I think. Thoughts? One idea: Avoid the headers and have an exception for journal articles (& drafts & submissions).
* '''Category tag placement''': Categories are usually placed at the end and I find that best and least distracting. Sometimes I see them at the top - am I going to offend anyone if I run a bot to move them all to the bottom?
 
Thoughts, suggestions? Even if you think "fine" or "don't care", leave a comment so I know you don't have objections. Thanks! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 02:53, 11 September 2012 (PDT)
 
:I've expanded on these at [[Appropedia:Manual of style‎]]. Please indulge my pedantry briefly, and comment there or on its talk page as appropriate. Consistency will make Appropedia more usable and more pleasant to use. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 01:39, 30 January 2013 (PST)
 
==Portals and taskbar==
We need to make the wikipedia more simple to navigate.
see [[User_talk:Chriswaterguy#Portals_and_taskbar]] for some ideas
Let's discuss which things we can change, and against what there are objections.
[[User:KVDP|KVDP]] 00:34, 10 October 2012 (PDT)
 
== Appropedia Jam ==
 
A bunch of us are getting together online in a few hours (and in real life, if you're in Arcata) for an [[A:Appropedia Jam|'''Appropedia Jam''']]. I'm really looking forward to it.
 
See the [[A:Appropedia Jam|'''Appropedia Jam''']] page for details, and check the [http://www.worldtimebuddy.com/event?lid=0%2C5558953%2C5128581%2C2643743%2C160263%2C1642911%2C2147714%2C2179537&h=0&sts=22502880&sln=22-24&a=show time in your timezone] (e.g. 11 pm Sunday Oct 14 in London, 3pm US Pacific coast, 9am Mon 15th in Sydney).
 
Two things we're still working on:
* There's a countdown timer on that page, which hopefully will work properly - it seems to not update if you revisit the page, until you click the "refresh" link next to the countdown.
* We could do this regularly, but how about we have two times, and alternate between them? One month we do a time that's ideal for the US and Western Europe, the next month do one that's need to find a better time for other parts of the world. This time, 1am will be hard for [[User:Kili|Kili]] in Tanzania, and Monday morning isn't great for most of us in Australia and Asia! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 20:28, 13 October 2012 (PDT)
 
== Talk page discussions ==
 
It's currently hard to know when someone's left a [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?namespace=1&tagfilter=&days=30&title=Special%3ARecentChanges question or comment on a talk page] (or, more rarely, on a [http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=Special:RecentChanges&days=300&namespace=15 Category talk]/[http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?namespace=103&tagfilter=&days=300&title=Special%3ARecentChanges Original talk]/[http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?namespace=101&tagfilter=&days=300&title=Special%3ARecentChanges Portal talk] page). Let's make a section here for any discussions or questions that we find. Just add to the list, with or without a description of the question/discussion. (This is a stop-gap measure - I'm looking forward to getting an better solution.)
 
Please respond to these discussions at the relevant page, and not here. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 05:21, 23 October 2012 (PDT)
 
* [[Talk:Safety of energy sources]] - a controversial article, but perhaps an important one. Delete it, or flag it as controversial and correct it?
* [[Talk:Agriculture]] - not a big issue, but do we call the article "Agriculture" or "Farming"?
* [[Talk:Greywater #Links]] - assessing which links to keep, which to delete.
* [[Talk:Mobile Solar Powered 3D Printer V2.0]]
* [[Talk:Windpumps]] - should our pagenames be plural or singular?
* [[Talk:Dew collection roof retrofit]] - using PVC for water collection?
* [[Talk:Animal husbandry]] - the [[Animal husbandry]] needs numbers and sources; raising wild species -> disagreement.
* [[Talk:Printable Breast Pump]] - what kind of warning is suitable (about the milk not being kept sterile)?
* [[Talk:Alternative society]] - suggestion to split up the [[Alternative society]] page.
* [[Original talk:Understanding Solar Stills]] - suggestion for increasing durability
* [[Talk:Population management]] - content removed from article, with comments (but layout is unclear).
 
== porting wikipedia templates ==
 
I have been porting a bunch of wikipedia templates over to get the nice table in the [[Arduino]] article. Tried to get the in to mm conversion working but getting errors -- if anyone that is more familiar with templates could have a look - it would be most appreciated. --[[User:J.M.Pearce|Joshua]] 19:18, 2 January 2013 (PST)
 
== suggestion for appropedia collaboration effort for 2013 ==
 
I have been talking to Chris about an idea I've had for a direction we might consider for 2013.  I thought it might be useful for me to try to explain it here.
 
I think it might be useful to collaborate to assess low-tech sanitation systems, particularly with regard to their effectiveness and safety.  There is a lot of technical information around the internet, but this is often hard to find and rarely subject to intense criticism.  If we could collate the information - particularly if we can encourage different experts to edit and discuss - I think his would be the start of an evidence-based toolkit for practitioners to understand interventions.  [[User:Joeturner|Joeturner]] 06:57, 14 January 2013 (PST)
 
:Thanks for the initiative, Joe.
 
:This fits with work that HSU is doing with Appropedia, under Lonny's direction. I'm sure they'll continue to contribute good info.
 
:From my experience, the way to really get Appropedia growing in a particular area is to recruit an academic to [[A:SL|using Appropedia with their class]]. A focus on critical thinking and assessment will certainly appeal to some instructors - as well as being the right direction for Appropedia, IMO. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 02:57, 6 February 2013 (PST)
 
::I really like this idea and love the work that [[User:Joeturner|Joeturner]] has been doing already. I will be on the look out for a teacher/class or business that would be into this and would love to hear ideas from Joe. thanks, --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] 18:47, 12 February 2013 (PST)
 
== Requsting main page redesign ==
 
Hi I have created [[Appropedia:User experience/MainPageRedesign5]] to test out a new look for the main page I would like to include it in the main page please it has a new disgn and some more information added to it and I would like to also ask could this website have a minor disgn change by adding the serve bar to the top of the website and suggest coming down from when your typing please and would like you to make this website other available languages and could you allow people by putting for example in an article [[en:]] or [[fr:]] to link it to the languages available to that article just like Wikipedia does please [[User:User555|User555]] 16:17, 12 February 2013 (PST)
 
:Hi User555
:Thank you for all your work on templates and the main page update. There a few easy items left to change there, e.g. the links to recent deaths and news shouldn't be there, the portals should link to actual portals, and a section for announcements is probably still needed.
:Regarding a serve bar... i am not sure what you are referring to
:Regarding separate languages the way wikipedia does it... we hope to have that complete in less than one month
:Thanks again, --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] 18:43, 12 February 2013 (PST)
 
::hi I have done a minor change to it I have added announcements I have also created in the news [[User:User555|User555]] 01:07, 13 February 2013 (PST)
 
::: Hi. I am sorry, I think we have a misunderstanding. I will try to be more clear:
:::* There should not be a section for news.
:::* The section for announcements looks great.
:::* The portals in the header should lead to actual [[Portal:List_of_portals|portals]].
::: Does that make more sense?
::: Thank you, --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] 21:15, 13 February 2013 (PST)
::::yes I have removed in the news now I am just creating the portals and then the page will be finish thanks for telling me [[User:User555|User555]] 08:16, 14 February 2013 (PST)
:::::hi do you mean for announcements to create it side bar like what I did in the new should I put announcements where in the new use to be before I removed [[User:User555|User555]] 08:18, 14 February 2013 (PST)
 
::::::I have created the portals  [[User:User555|User555]] 06:29, 15 February 2013 (PST)
 
::::::::it is now ready [[User:User555|User555]] 03:15, 16 February 2013 (PST)
 
{{undent}} Thanks User555. I love the idea of having these new sections - "did you know", featured pictures - and when we have content ready for these sections, I'd like to roll them out. Now, this will take some work... how do we take the first steps? (I even like the idea of a news section, and once we get a few communications classes working on Appropedia, we'll be ready to look at that, I think.)-[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 17:46, 20 February 2013 (PST)
 
:ok [[User:User555|User555]] 13:20, 23 February 2013 (PST)
 
== Site redesign  ==
 
Hi I would like to suggest several new features and disgn changes I would like to sea please
1. I would like more languages for example website address change to www.en.appropedia.org - for English or www.fr.appropedia.org for the French version of here simpler to Wikipedia address but in stead of saying Wikipedia it would say appropedia
 
2. I would like it to be easer to search this website for example please out the search bar at the top with suggestion popping down please and I would like this website to support <pre> <div></div> </pre> tags please
 
3. I would like to see support for link the article to other pages in different languages please for example I would like to do [[en:example]] or [[fr:example]] so it links to that page but in different languages please
 
4. I would like to sea in version history the option to revert the edits please and I would like to sea a new updated screen in show changes so it show a white back and show what words you change and what words you've added and I would like to see in history is how many letter you've added simpler to Wikipedia like if you added more it would show + how many you've or if you taken away it would says - how many
 
[[User:User555|User555]] 13:06, 13 February 2013 (PST)
 
:We are currently updating the version of mediawiki and adding language support. I hope you will like the changes which will take place this month. Thanks, --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] 21:36, 13 February 2013 (PST)
 
::ok thank you [[User:User555|User555]] 02:09, 14 February 2013 (PST)
 
:::could you also change the design and make the design moder simler to Wikipedias but different please [[User:User555|User555]] 06:17, 15 February 2013 (PST)
 
:::: We have a version of the Vector skin, adapted from Wikipedia (thanks [[User:RichardF]]) but we need help to get the Facebook and Google Plus buttons to work. Do you know someone who can help with the CSS? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 18:03, 20 February 2013 (PST)
 
:::: no not really I will look online and find on how to use codes to input Facebook and google bottom [[Special:Contributions/86.173.149.162|86.173.149.162]] 11:06, 23 February 2013 (PST)
 
:::::I have created facebook twitter and other buttons [[User:User555|User555]] 14:51, 23 February 2013 (PST)
 
 
<big>hi I have change the portals I created and replaced them with the ones created on here </big> [[User:User555|User555]] 08:50, 9 March 2013 (PST)
 
== Suggestion for creating projects  ==
 
I have a suggestion how about we create a project on here for each things sillier to wikipedia called WikiProject. We could create one for improving the main page. Another one could be for creating or improving a page or many more [[User:User555|User555]] 13:25, 15 February 2013 (PST)
 
:I agree in principle. The challenge here is the smaller (so far) community.  From my experience in trying such things, I suggest:
:* Keep it simple
:* Choose a logical discussion "hub" page for a given project. E.g. I suggest [[Appropedia:User experience]] for working on the main page and its [[Appropedia talk:User experience| talk page]] for discussion.
:* Let us know here. Assuming we're on the same wavelength, we can work together and make sure it's linked from the right places, and that the right people know about it (i.e. keen Appropedians working in that area).
:What do you think? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 19:16, 20 February 2013 (PST)
::yep [[User:User555|User555]] 11:07, 23 February 2013 (PST)
 
== Google+ ==
 
Could you create an account on google+ please [[User:User555|User555]] 12:33, 23 February 2013 (PST)
 
:We have a page there - [https://plus.google.com/113686496771245556609#113686496771245556609/posts Appropedia on G+] - is that what you mean? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 20:25, 23 February 2013 (PST)
 
::ok thanks [[Special:Contributions/90.222.250.124|90.222.250.124]] 11:10, 8 March 2013 (PST)
 
== Joeturner for admin ==
 
I nominate User:Joeturner -- lots of good edits and spam fighting - would be more efficient to have him go at the spammers directly. -- Joshua 03:56, 26 February 2013 (PST)
:Happy to help in any way I can with the spam.  Is it always this bad?  [[User:Joeturner|Joeturner]] 07:02, 28 February 2013 (PST)
:: I second that nomination. It is not always bad. It is a consistent battle and we slowly adapt. So the spam gets worse for a while until we figure out how to stop that method and it quiets for a while... then the cycle starts again. Thanks! --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] 16:48, 1 March 2013 (PST)
::: Supported. See more at [[Appropedia:Administrators/Nominations#Joe_Turner]]. --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] 15:12, 8 March 2013 (PST)
::::Excellent -  welcome to adminship,  Joe! --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 19:12, 8 March 2013 (PST)
 
== Anti-spam measures ==
 
It looks like this wiki has spam trouble. Perhaps one of the admins should try this: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Asirra
 
(ConfirmEdit is more "official" but it looks like most spam bots can now bypass it.)
 
:Lonny and [[User:Sam Rose]]  are currently doing a big upgrade - after that I reckon it's time to look at Asirra and its super spam-fighting  kittens. --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 19:21, 8 March 2013 (PST)
 
== Editing Wikipedia entry on the open source movement ==
 
I'm just getting into it but I think the open source movement is so much more than software. Examples abound on this site!?! I may get around to editing the Wikipedia entry but I thought I'd put it out there in case anyone else wants to do it.
 
Incidentally, studying openness, technology and media through the #ETMOOC right now. Check it out!
Natalie
 
== Bot ==
 
Hi could someone create a bot to copy from en wikipedia and put the content in to here please [[Appropedia:Selected anniversaries]] so the bot will copy from each date on en wikipedia and put it on to [[Appropedia:Selected anniversaries]] day it is today it is for the new main pag eo am creating in [[Appropedia:User experience/MainPageRedesign5]] [[Special:Contributions/86.173.149.162|86.173.149.162]] 13:01, 6 March 2013 (PST)
 
:Currently [[Appropedia:Selected anniversaries]] seems to be a mess of stuff. In addition, I am fairly concerned about the changing of templates which has been causing problems. I would like to caution care in changing existing template. What is the purpose of [[Appropedia:Selected anniversaries]] and will the page be fixed? Thank you! --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] 15:03, 8 March 2013 (PST)
 
::the page is for the new main page redisgn [[Appropedia:User experience/MainPageRedesign5]]  [[User:User555|User555]] 03:59, 9 March 2013 (PST)
 
== User555 for admin ==
I nominate [[User:User555]] he has made lot of good edit as seen at [[Appropedia:User experience/MainPageRedesign5]] he has made lot of templates which are needed on here for example he changed the design of [[template:documentation]] check [[http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&limit=500&target=User555 User555 contribution]] to see his contribution here [[User:User555|User555]] 16:25, 23 February 2013 (PST)
 
== A new Main Page section – Selected categories ==
 
I added a new section to the Main Page, called Selected categories.  It’s near the bottom of the page.  It includes categories for all of the Areas shown in the Navigation panel on the left side of every page plus the top-level content category, Topics.
 
Because this section uses category trees, you can click on the [+] character next to any category and see all of its subcategories, as far down as they go.  This makes it possible to browse the wide variety of content areas available on Appropedia without having to leave the Main Page.
 
Please let me know if you have any feedback about this new section. --[[User:RichardF|RichardF]] 08:07, 9 March 2013 (PST)
 
== Appropedia theme  ==
 
Hi could you change the theme to vector please and could you change the default skin to vector please
&useskin=vector
[[User:User555|User555]] 08:43, 9 March 2013 (PST)
:We haven't got a solution for the social media buttons yet. You posted something about this, but I couldn't understand what you meant. Do you have a way to make the the FB "Like" & G+ "+1" buttons work? --[[User:Chriswaterguy|Chriswaterguy]] 19:32, 9 March 2013 (PST)
 
Well I can hyperlink Facebook button like I did in the redisgn main page [[User:User555|User555]] 00:52, 10 March 2013 (PST)
 
Hi could you change the theme to vector please and could you change the default skin to vector please &useskin=vector [[User:User555|User555]] 00:52, 10 March 2013 (PST)
 
== Forums ==
 
Hi I am in the middle of creating a template which allows you to create a form for example
 
{{Forum
| name = Forum
| image =
| caption =
| first name = user
| last name = 555
}}
I am in the middle of adding more but I have added first name and last name I am adding more


If you go here [[Template:Forum]] you can help I am using inforbox  [[User:User555|User555]] 11:31, 9 March 2013 (PST)
:Thanks. --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] ([[User talk:Lonny|talk]]) 01:31, 19 January 2020 (UTC)


:I'm sorry, I don't understand the rationale behind the changes you are making.  Why do you think we need a form?  I can't think of any good reason why we need that template on Appropedia.  [[User:Joeturner|Joeturner]] 06:15, 10 March 2013 (PDT)
== Suggested for deletion ==


:Further to the above, I have temporarily blocked User555 for 24 hours due to excessive importing of templates and other structural elements. I have asked that User555 explains on a new page why additional changes are necessary and an improvement on the existing structure '''before''' making further changes. These changes are too many and too fast and User555 has not been checking the effects of the changes, leading to considerable extra work to fix broken elements of Appropedia. [[User:Joeturner|Joeturner]] 06:46, 10 March 2013 (PDT)
I am suggesting to delete [[Global Village Construction Kit]]. This page is a little less obvious if it should be deleted for developed. I would also love to hear from any people involved with the Global Village Construction Set. Thank, --[[User:Lonny|Lonny]] ([[User talk:Lonny|talk]]) 01:40, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

Revision as of 01:40, 19 January 2020

Appropedia:Village pump/Introduction

A plan for Appropedia to go places in 2013/14

Here's a stab at a strategic plan - what do you think? --Chriswaterguy 00:28, 19 September 2013 (PDT)

I think its a good start. I added some comments on the Talk page there. --PatSunter (talk) 19:08, 12 March 2014 (PDT)

Thanks and good luck

I'm outa here, folks. Good luck with everything. Joe

We've chatted by email, but again, many thanks for your great work, Joe. I wish you all the best with your next adventures. --Chriswaterguy 17:53, 14 October 2013 (PDT)

Pages that advertise green businesses

I removed the {{delete|advertising}} from Beyond Building Energy. We have been allowing sustainable businesses to have pages about themselves. I like having such pages, especially where they have information that might be valuable to a reader, but we need to work out clearer limits. E.g. is Beyond Building Energy the sort of page we want to have on Appropedia? --Chriswaterguy (talk) 21:35, 19 November 2013 (PST)

  • Maybe there is a need for a template for sustainability-oriented businesses or organisations? I.E. not a delete template, but something to the effect that it is a business, Appropedia does not endorse businesses or their products, but allows relevant ones a page, so the reader should do their own research etc. I also think its ok, as long as they don't try to start inserting lots of "advertorial" style content in more Encyclopaedic pages (an issue we had a while back on Public transport). --PatSunter (talk) 21:06, 14 March 2014 (PDT)
Thanks Pat, good approach, I think. --Chriswaterguy (talk) 04:58, 17 April 2014 (PDT)
Yes, good approach. Here's another wiki's page on the topic: [1]? Pashley (talk) 10:57, 17 April 2014 (PDT)

spammness

Hey I am sorry but I face the spam problem too. I've tried change the content of the page Cshr25, and I was sure I got logged in. No idea why it treated me as a spammer.
I couldn't even leave a message on the supporter's page. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cshr25 , 21 January 2014

(For the record, this was resolved. --Chriswaterguy (talk) 04:46, 17 April 2014 (PDT))

Exemplar city?

An article [2] on work in Huntsville, Alabama on tornado resistance, "micro-grid" energy sources, sustainable tech, ... Pashley (talk) 11:18, 15 April 2014 (PDT)

That's very cool! I wonder what it would take to find students interested in developing pages on this. This touches on a bunch of important topics. --Chriswaterguy (talk) 04:36, 17 April 2014 (PDT)

Solar at Canadian latitudes?

An Indian reservation with a solar project. This is a fairly isolated community; I do not think it is on the electric grid or that it is reachable by road. It is not in the far North, only Northern Ontario so laititude below 60. Pashley (talk) 19:59, 17 April 2014 (PDT)

New type of axe for splitting wood

Where does this fit in? Inventor & press make some rather strong claims for it. Pashley (talk) 16:03, 22 April 2014 (PDT)

Content types

I can tell there's been a lot of effort to organize Appropedia by topics/ subject matter. But I'm wondering if there's been much in the way of organizing by content type? Appropedia's content is much broader than traditional wikis. From what I can see there's: 1) articles, 2) manuals/ how-tos, 3) specific project/ experiment write-ups, and 4) raw data. Maybe we could have a convo about if this kind of organization would be helpful for users and if so how to do it. --Ethan (talk) 19:06, 22 April 2014 (PDT)

Agreed - a good start would be clarifying the exact classifications for pages we have. "Designs" seems like another type of content, but perhaps these will fit into projects or how-tos. --Chriswaterguy (talk) 02:00, 23 April 2014 (PDT)
Another kind of content is essays. These may be high in narrative or experience, e.g. Reversing Soil Degradation of Agricultural Lands. These are about the topic, but probably should stand alone, separate from a topic page. I'd like to have a naming convention, so they can be easily recognised. Should they start with "Essay:"? Should they be capitalised? --Chriswaterguy (talk) 05:28, 21 August 2014 (PDT)
As I was organizing the permaculture category, I realized that designs are an essential area to work on. Perhaps we could use custom namespaces. I see that there's already Original: , but that seems to have more to do with attribution than content type. Another option might just be to use categories, but I don't know if it would make site navigation feel messy to have content types and subject matter organized that way. --Ethan (talk) 10:18, 17 May 2015 (PDT)

Food crops & nitrogen-fixing bacteria

Three teenaged Irish girls got the top prize at a Google Science Fair with work that looks rather interesting: http://www.independent.ie/business/technology/news/irish-teenagers-bag-top-prize-at-google-science-fair-2014-30607710.html

Is anyone interested in a guide to Greenwashing?

I would like to make a page on the practice of companies presenting themselves as environmentally friendly when they are not in reality (a.k.a. "greenwashing") but I'm not sure if it's something the community is interested in: this isn't a guide for a specific project or proposal for a kind of technology. Is this fit for Appropedia? Koavf (talk) 10:43, 7 October 2014 (PDT)

I think it's a good fit for Appropedia.
(Searching…) Aha – we have a page called greenwash. What do you think of moving that to greenwashing and developing it further? --Chriswaterguy (talk) 16:07, 7 October 2014 (PDT)
Ha. I didn't even think to search greenwash. I'll see if I can add to that. Thanks. Koavf (talk) 10:12, 9 October 2014 (PDT)

Any overlap here?

Survivor Library, for tech that might work after collapse of civilisation. e.g. An early 20th century text on X-rays, the idea being that with that plus basic electrical & glass-blowing skills you might be able to build a medically useful machine from scratch.

This is not closely related to anything we do here, but it might include some books of interest. It seems worth a link, but where? Pashley (talk) 08:35, 28 October 2014 (PDT)


Cool! Probably we want a Template:Tlc, or Template:Tlc? We don't have a lot of content directly addressing this, but it's definitely on topic. (Personally, I think the chances of modern society really collapsing are very low. However, I do believe in being prepared, and that compiling the info has other benefits.)
So, where... an initial article could be called Recovering from collapse, say? Just a thought. Be bold :). --Chriswaterguy (talk) 20:16, 29 October 2014 (PDT)
Love it. I often think of appropriate technologies as epi-apocalyptic technologies that we build in the race against collapse. The bonus is that if we do not make it in time, the technology knowledge can be there for the rebuild/re-imagine. --Lonny (talk) 21:29, 29 October 2014 (PDT)
From the looks of it, the content of the site is mostly public domain manuals/ how-tos from the 19th-early 20th century. Certainly there's a lot of commonalities between what people were doing then and the current approaches of appropriate tech and the transition movement. But there's also plenty of "bad ideas" from back then (like just about any application of lead). That aside, how could these two sites interact? Appropedia seems to be pretty averse to PDFs, which is Survivor Library's bread and butter. For the present SL can be used to identify content areas we're lacking here (like beekeeping) and linking to those that are covered here. --Ethan (talk) 09:38, 17 May 2015 (PDT)

Media idea

Hi been a long time.. just checking in to say that I've been thinking in a similar way about this, thinking that there are few forms of media which are written as if collapse is a real possibility (and, having been to a few academic conferences about this in recent months, I think it is a lot more likely than many might think) - or even if it isn't, talking as if the changes we need to make to our lifestyles in the face of climate change are real, serious and urgent. Which, I think, probably amount to the same kind of thing. I was even vaguely contemplating starting a wikinews clone to start putting out news written on that basis. Oh yes, I forgot to say that since I've been away, I've kinda become a journalist.. as you do! Joeturner (talk) 09:20, 10 November 2014 (PST)

Hi Joe. Thumbs up for all those thoughts.
Could Appropedia be the platform, or at least an incubator, for your news site idea? (Side note: "Collapsonomics" springs to mind for the economics section of such a project.) --Chriswaterguy (talk) 14:48, 10 November 2014 (PST)
Hi Chris - well I'm really throwing it out for discussion rather than suggesting that I have a 'ready made' idea. There are significant problems with the model from wikinews which makes it very bland and has a very tortuous process to get to publication - I am not sure that is really necessary. Also there is no need to feel pressure to generate a lot of daily content. So I guess I'm thinking something which is a bit more than a blog, but a lot less work than a full news site - perhaps including interviews with people involved in relevant stuff (including but not exclusively appropredia projects), discussion of relevant issues etc. It could, perhaps, be intended to be a monthly mag (newsletter or whatever) but with articles coming out as and when during that time.
I think it could work as opensource - providing everyone understood some basic rules and there were some protections to prevent people getting misquoted etc. I suppose I see it a bit more like an open review system to improve content which is eventually 'published' (and no longer open for editing). Dunno, just a thought really. Joeturner (talk) 02:41, 11 November 2014 (PST)
"I'm thinking something which is a bit more than a blog, but a lot less work than a full news site - perhaps including interviews with people involved in relevant stuff (including but not exclusively appropredia projects), discussion of relevant issues etc." – I like it. To do it in a collaborative way means that an existing site (with lots of suitable users already registered) would be a good place, but maybe that's my bias. To do it in an open source way, MediaWiki has some advantages.
In any case it sounds like something that I'd like to support, partly because it's a good idea and partly because I know that you're smart and no-nonsense. --Chriswaterguy (talk) 16:16, 24 November 2014 (PST)
Sounds like a potentially great project, Joe. I've been watching the collapse discourse for awhile. What info sources there are leave a lot to be desired. The main thing I'd like to see is something with a lot more fact-based approach. There are some staid and insightful media like John Michael Greer's blog and the C-Realm podcast, but there's also a lot of tin foil types. --Ethan (talk) 09:54, 17 May 2015 (PDT)

Farm Hack

Farm Hack looks like prime partners for Appropedia - we should be encouraging cross pollination. -- Joshua (talk) 06:38, 6 February 2015 (PST)

Thanks Joshua. I'll drop them a line. --Chriswaterguy (talk) 05:04, 7 February 2015 (PST)

LH side bar link for sustainable community action

There are now quite a few (c. 300) pages in the Category:Sustainable community action. It'd be good if we could have some kind of link from the left hand menu (just to Sustainable community action, the sca main page), perhaps near the collaborators box? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Philralph, 17 February 2015‎

Thanks Philralph – you're doing great work. I added it under "areas", as "Community action" so that it fits. ("Collaborators" was intended for external partners, so it didn't seem right.) How is that? --Chriswaterguy (talk) 15:16, 23 February 2015 (PST)
Excellent! Thanks Chris Philralph (talk) 01:27, 24 February 2015 (PST)

Translation students on Wikipedia

Sharing this link because it may be relevant to Appropedia and Ekopedia, as we work to connect the different language wikis: Translation students embrace Wikipedia assignments, but find user interface frustrating. --Chriswaterguy (talk) 04:44, 24 Februa ry 2015 (PST)

What's the progress on that project? I'd be glad to help port stuff once I'm finished with Permaculture.info. Unfortunately, I don't know French, but it looks like there's lots of great English-language content and images. --Ethan (talk) 09:17, 17 May 2015 (PDT)

Self-healing concrete?

Slashdot points to an article on bio-concrete; it contains bacteria which fix cracks. Pashley (talk) 10:09, 15 May 2015 (PDT)

Year of Soil & Light

This is a bit late as the year's almost half over, but it would be cool if we could do something for the International Year of Soil and Light (as declared by the UN). Perhaps some kind of work party or months-long effort to add relevant content. At the very least it could get a mention on the front page. --Ethan (talk) 10:03, 17 May 2015 (PDT)

Oops, I haven't been checking this page, sorry! That's a good idea. Perhaps there are existing pages that could be highlighted also? --Chriswaterguy (talk) 05:28, 12 June 2015 (PDT)

Instructables

As J.M.Pearce mentioned, Instructables has some material that could be ported here. But there's a snag. If I understand right, Appropedia avoids BY-NC-SA material. That license appears to be the default on Instructables, so the majority of content is licensed that way. I want there to be a quick way to look up BY-SA content, but I'm stumped. CC's own search utility doesn't include Instructables. Trying to combine a reverse image search of the BY-SA image combined with the string "site:instructables.com" didn't work. Any suggestions? I don't want to waste time going through stuff we can't take. (Incidentally, I was reminded of the website's existence by finding a book of "off-grid" projects compiled by the site's founder. Is he violating his own users' licenses!?) --Ethan (talk) 21:56, 20 May 2015 (PDT)

It turns out there is alttext on the license images. So you can enter the search string "site:instructables.com attribution sharealike -noncommercial" to get (mostly) relevant results. I created the template {{Instructables}} to provide attribution for imported material. TCMTECH dripper irrigation for rainbarrel is an example of what an imported page can look like. It might also be nice to notify the content creator.

Side note: There's been some discussion discussion about CC license violation 1, 2 --Ethan (talk) 13:04, 21 May 2015 (PDT)

Hey, nice effort with the "site:instructables.com attribution sharealike -noncommercial" search.
Yeah, it's unfortunate about the incompatible licenses. What we are always able to do, regardless of license or copyright, is post a summary or paraphrase together with a link. I think that's still very useful, as it becomes information that can be found by browsing Appropedia (e.g. going through the pages in a category), even if the full version must be viewed elsewhere. --Chriswaterguy (talk) 05:26, 12 June 2015 (PDT)

Articles about individuals - need guidelines

There were a couple of articles about individuals in mainspace, that were a bit promotional in nature. That's not fundamentally a bad thing, but it's not what Appropedia mainspace is for, I think. So, I've moved them to the userspace of the user that created the pages.

We want to be clear and consistent, so my suggested guideline is that articles about people need to be notable in some way. If they meet Wikipedia's notability criteria and they're relevant to Appropedia's themes, they can be in mainspace.

We can be more flexible than Wikipedia, though, e.g. by counting popular sustainability/development blogs as "reliable sources" that count towards notability.

What are your thoughts? --Chriswaterguy (talk) 05:43, 12 June 2015 (PDT)

I've been thinking about this a little bit, but not about the notability aspect. There's several individuals and their work that I'd like to profile. In many cases the individual is more or less synonymous with the organization they head or the technique they developed. Sepp Holzer is a perfect example which already exists on the wiki. I can't imagine anyone whose biographical details will be sufficient (for the purpose of this wiki) to justify their own article. --Ethan (talk)


Hi Appropedia, I have a question, and have looked around a bounch and am still not sure where to post it. First, I so appreciate that you have made this website exist! It is of such great service to the world, and has so much potential to do even more!

I would like to share resources that involve individual's discoveries.

1) is it OK to share about any one who is already dead? 2) is it OK to share about people who are living by putting a link to a third party? if that third party is a professional certifying body that might get into a gray area of promotion. I also do not know most of the people who work in the field, but the field itself should have the right to articulate who belongs in it. Also, attribution for the general category should be given (founder of the certifying body, called ISMETA, whose name escapes me, coined the term "somatic education" and "movement education" which can cover multiple methods of teaching movement. 3) ISMETA also includes movement _therapy_ which is not, by its nature, open source, as far as I understand it (unless you would consider someone offering to be a physical therapist without any training and claiming to heal conditions to be using material they've read in an open-source fashion). How do I handle this? is it enough to simply give a disclaimer?

Thanks! --JoshuaDM

Hi Joshua. There's no problem with sharing about someone who is already dead, and providing a suitable link is always helpful. A verifying body could make sense.
An article being to promotional wouldn't ever be about a single link - it's the overall emphasis and balance of the article.
It's fine to share about things that are not open source, as long as the text is released under our open content license.
I hope that helps! --Chriswaterguy (talk)

Thanks, Chriswaterguy. I will attempt to conform to these guidelines, and if I make any mistakes please let me know so I can correct them. Thanks. --Joshua

Nominating Ethan for admin

Ethan has been flagging spam, and being an admin would let him work on this more effectively. He's been an enthusiastic and trustworthy contributor here, so I see no reason not to make him an admin. Support, oppose or have another comment? Please comment below. --Chriswaterguy (talk) 06:20, 12 June 2015 (PDT)

I'd be glad to help out. :) --Ethan (talk) 19:35, 12 June 2015 (PDT)
Support, Philralph (talk) 01:55, 24 June 2015 (PDT)
Great. Thank you Ethan, welcome to adminship. You should see new tools on pages (such as the ability to delete directly). You should also see new tools at Special:SpecialPages, such as mass delete (use with care). Please feel free to ask whenever you have a question. Thank you for all you do. --Lonny (talk) 17:58, 19 July 2015 (PDT)
Thanks everyone. I tried out the delete function on the lastest spam articles. What's the standard procedure for the spambot-created users? I'll take a closer look at Special:SpecialPages; there's a lot there. Any recommended regular mainenance tasks? --Ethan (talk) 13:15, 31 July 2015 (PDT)

Lightweight structural panels 3D print

Think of a cross between milk crates and giant legos. Now build a house with it. If you're actively intrigued about how to address this challenge with a 3D printer, please see http://www.appropedia.org/Lightweight_structural_panels_3D_print because I really don't know much about how to go about it. I only have an idea with potential.

top menu link for Community action

Can we have a link in the menu that goes across the top of pages for Community action (as in the areas of the side bar)? I've moved 'Sustainable community action' to Community action for sustainability, which fits better with the link, and is perhaps a slightly less opaque name (plus am making corresponding changes to category names, etc), Cheers, Philralph (talk) 08:21, 13 August 2015 (PDT)

Also would be good to have links to Community action for sustainability or Community action on Welcome to Appropedia/Categories & Appropedia:CategoryTree Philralph (talk) 07:45, 16 August 2015 (PDT)

I bet most-all of Category:Taking action could be merged into CAS, and then CAS could replace it on the Category Tree. --Ethan (talk) 11:40, 17 August 2015 (PDT)

commercial article?

I'd like for someone to take a look at The Economics of UK's Residential Solar Power and tell me what you think about it. It's been written by, and links to, a website that compares different solarvoltaic installation services in the UK. I'm not sure whether this crosses a line in terms of advertising content. It does appear to offer some useful, if unsourced, information. I'm sure at least part of the motivation for creating the article was for SEO reasons, but I don't think that's sufficient reason to remove it if they're also adding substantive content to Appropedia. Thoughts? --Ethan (talk) 11:52, 17 August 2015 (PDT)

Question on Naming Conventions

Was fleshing out an index on my new project page and wanted to ask about the naming conventions for internal page links. First, is it OK to use separate pages for sub-sections of a project or is it preferable to only use sub-sections on the one project page? Is there a convention for naming internal pages and links so they relate just to a parent project?

Thank you. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by EricHunting, 23 August 2015

My opinion is 1) Go for it. If it turns out there's not much substance on a particular page, it can easily be merged into the parent page. 2) Check out Help:Page naming. I would title the pages something like Open House Fabrication, Open House Budget and so on. --Ethan (talk) 12:16, 23 August 2015 (PDT)
Agree with Ethan. Unless they're short sections, it's often better to have separate pages, that link to each other.
Having the patent project as part of the pagename is a good idea, so visitors can quickly see what it's about. --Chriswaterguy (talk) 06:54, 24 August 2015 (PDT)
Thanks for the suggestions. I'll give that a try. --EricHunting (talk) 06:58, 25 August 2015 (PDT)

Ekopedia status

It appears that Ekopedia is down. Are the site owners/ admins aware of the outage? --Ethan (talk) 11:47, 27 August 2015 (PDT)

Yes. There are people working hard on it. The technical details are quite difficult and they could use some additional help. Please contact User:Chriswaterguy if you know some great multilanguage wiki people that could help. In the mean time, I am making a temporary landing page at Ekopedia. Please feel free to edit with more direction. Thank you, --Lonny (talk)

A Two-Stage, Oscillating Swingset Pump

By swinging in this 'swing/penduluum' the other end of the lever oscillates up and down.

This then operates a vertical rod which, with a simple piston air compressor (or water pump), stores compressed air in an insulated air scuba tank, or pumps water in an efficient and relaxing way.

The heat from compression stays put, and gives more umPH to run two air pistons, which are located on-board the teeter-totter 'chariot'! (Now stationary for water pumping.)

Then, off it goes with a thousand lb. load of goods to a destination. Truly a dual-purpose vehicle!

These two air pistons then power the wheels, to assist the runner/driver with getting easily around a festival area at 10mph cruising speed...with a thousand pounds of people!

So, the penduluum , that is in the 'Two-Stage Oscillating Lever' invention, now becomes a...children's swing air compressor/water pump!

http://darinselby.1hwy.com/2stageswinglever03.html

Am I allowed to start pages in languages other than English - Español - Deutsch - Français - Italiano - Português - Kiswahili ?

I want to develop articles in my native tongue, to reach out the locals. This would also give a platform for my language writings to focus on green technology, green ways etc. So am I allowed to simply write articles in my language? IKHazarika (talk) 00:44, 16 September 2015 (PDT)

Hi, IKHazarika. Yes, we welcome content in other languages. Please refer to Appropedia:Languages. --Ethan (talk) 02:08, 18 September 2015 (PDT)

Duplicate originals

I've been going over the website with a fine-tooth comb looking for things that need to be cleaned up. Most issues I've found have trivial fixes, but here's one that's a little more complicated. Several original content pages dating back to 2006 have duplicate pages. In each case they have their own separate edit histories. See: http://www.appropedia.org/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=%28original%29&fulltext=Search . Duplicates for each can be found as both XYZ_(original) and Original:XYZ. I'd be glad to merge these articles, if I can get some guidance on the best way to do that. --Ethan (talk) 22:05, 26 September 2015 (PDT)

Proposal for mass deletion

There was a certain user who copied a lot of templates and other content over from Wikipedia about 2 1/2 years ago. Most to all of it seems to be unnecessary to Appropedia, at least at this stage in its development. For example, there are several templates related to news. While Philralph has been adding news to the relevant location pages on CAS pages, there's not multiple news stories coming up every day to make those templates usable. Also there's not a large enough userbase here to update them. Other templates are just outside of the purview of this wiki. Further, they're really cluttering up the category tree. Therefore, I'd like to go through and just get rid of the majority of it. There's probably a few things that might possibly be used in the future which could be shelved in the incubator, and I'm willing to go digging through it all. --Ethan (talk) 05:25, 30 September 2015 (PDT)

I went ahead with this. There was at least one template that was deleted in error, so if anyone notices something that looks broken please inform me or another admin. I changed my mind about a news template (see below). --Ethan (talk) 02:32, 2 December 2015 (PST)

Porting from PermaWiki

I received Graham Burnett's blessing to port PermaWiki's content here. He was actually surprised it hadn't been done already. Because of long-term interest in PermaWiki here, and both sites using CC-BY-SA I anticipate no roadblocks. I set up the infrastructure already; ported pages can be appended with {{attrib permawiki}}, which will automatically place them in the PermaWiki category. The full list of mainspace pages can be found here. I'll get started on this in earnest once I finish porting the Permaculture.info content (shouldn't be long, once I resolve access issues). --Ethan (talk) 09:44, 5 October 2015 (PDT)

Excellent, thank you! --Chriswaterguy (talk) 18:12, 27 November 2015 (PST)

OpenStreetMap

I'd like to propose a new feature: compatibility with OpenStreetMap. First, it's collaborative and open-licensed (CC-BY-SA), consistent with Appropedia. Second, (in my opinion) the map quality is often better than proprietary map services. More info here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/MediaWiki_extension --Ethan (talk) 20:19, 25 October 2015 (PDT)

Hi Ethan,
We are working on a site upgrade as we speak. Once we are up to date, I would love to explore this extension. I love OpenStreetMap. Thanks, --Lonny (talk) 20:01, 2 December 2015 (PST)
Wikivoyage has two types of map, both derived from OSM. A "dynamic map" has OSM data overlaid with any WV listings (hotels, etc.) that include lat/long co-ords; almost every destination has one of these & there's a template to make inserting one easy. Some also have a "static map", user-created. Pashley (talk) 15:46, 17 February 2017 (PST)

Felicity Tepper for admin

I nominate Felicity Tepper (talk · contribs) for an admin role. Felicity has been making many valuable contributions and also tagging spam pages for deletion.

Felicity, do you accept? --Chriswaterguy (talk)

I've been reading through the admin materials and links, to be sure of the responsibilities involved. If everyone else is happy for me to facilitate in this way, then I'd be happy to accept. Felicity (talk) 13:20, 28 November 2015 (PST)

Any words of support, any questions or concerns? --Chriswaterguy (talk) 18:09, 27 November 2015 (PST)

I support! --Lonny (talk) 18:24, 27 November 2015 (PST)
Me too! Philralph (talk) 02:42, 28 November 2015 (PST)
Support. Felicity has been adding a lot of great content and tagging spam. --Ethan (talk) 17:31, 28 November 2015 (PST)
Woohoo. Thank you Felicity, you are now an admin! --Lonny (talk) 19:41, 1 December 2015 (PST)

Thanks everyone, looking forward to helping out and continuing to learn. Cheers. Felicity (talk) 23:03, 1 December 2015 (PST)

Main page redesign proposal

I'd like to suggest some design changes for the front page. My draft redesign is here. There's two main things I'd like to see:

1) Reduce size of header and announcements. Right now when I load the main page these two items take up all of the space that isn't dedicated to the top & side bars. I'm not very experienced in graphic design, but to my mind that's a waste of some valuable real estate.

2) Add a news section. Phil has been adding news items to Community action for sustainability on a daily basis. I think bringing them to the front page, and putting them next to the more static content on the front page offers a nice balance. It would do a better job of highlighting the breadth and depth of material covered on Appropedia.

I think both of these would spur more interest and participation from visitors to the site. Note that my draft has some issues: the left and right columns can become unaligned depending on what which random selections load. The Highlighted Projects section would also need to be edited to fit the left column. --Ethan (talk) 21:34, 29 November 2015 (PST)

I'd love to see a redesign. I'll have a closer look at your draft later (getting to work now) but:
  • The part of the header that lists all the topic areas ("Appropriate technology • Construction • " etc) was an experiment, I think, and it isn't necessary as we have sidebar navigation and a search bar. We can remove it and see how that goes. In fact... Yes! (If that turns out to be unpopular, any admin can revert, here: MediaWiki:Sitenotice.)
  • News section would be excellent - the continual activity that's been happening on Appropedia means that we can keep that fresh.
Thanks! --Chriswaterguy (talk) 14:42, 30 November 2015 (PST)
This is looking good. Is there any way to bring the highlighted project higher. I feel like projects are the core of Appropedia and it would be cool to have it above the fold. Either way, I think it looks better as you have it and would be happy have you implement it. Eventually we will have staff for some awesome UX. In the mean time, I am glad that we can all make it better. While you are at it, can you:
Thanks! --Lonny (talk) 18:24, 30 November 2015 (PST)

I don't see a big conceptual difference between "Community action news" and "Hot topics / In the news." Perhaps the items can be combined into one section or one section with two parts. I put together a sample layout --> here <-- to show how "Community action news" could be incorporated into the Main Page, while still keeping the "Highlighted project" near the top. --RichardF (talk) 06:43, 2 December 2015 (PST)

Hot Topics/In The News is more focused on the work of Appropedians, while Community Action News focuses on the work people are doing in communities around the world. Hot Topics/In The News is closer in content to the Appropedia blog. --Ethan (talk) 01:02, 4 December 2015 (PST)
That sounds like a reason to keep them distinct but not necessarily separate in general locations on the page. If you all need any more help with page layouts, let me know. --RichardF (talk) 06:41, 4 December 2015 (PST)

Hi all, it'd be good to take up Ethan's suggestion of getting some Community Action News into the main page. RichardF's general locations on the page looks good to me, but there seemed too much text on one band (row). A way round this might be to incorporate Selected Quote into one of the columns (for me adds to readability) example here. What do you all think? Philralph (talk) 10:52, 7 January 2016 (PST)

Nominating Philralph for admin

I nominate Philralph (talk · contribs) for an admin role. Philralph has been very active, especially in building the many, many pages on sustainable community action..

Philralph, do you accept? --Chriswaterguy (talk)

Yes, thank you --Philralph (talk) 07:16, 2 December 2015 (PST)
I second that nomination! --Lonny (talk) 19:46, 1 December 2015 (PST)
Absolutely! I thought he was already! Felicity (talk) 23:04, 1 December 2015 (PST)
I, too, was surprised when I realized he wasn't. I support, of course. --Ethan (talk) 02:16, 2 December 2015 (PST)
Hi Phil,
Congratulations and thank you! You are now an admin. Please see the fledgling Appropedia:Guidelines for administrators for more info. There should be more tools available to all the admins at Special:SpecialPages as well. --Lonny (talk) 19:56, 2 December 2015 (PST)
Thanks all --Philralph (talk) 23:53, 2 December 2015 (PST)

Feedback on support page please. (New recurring donation option.)

Please check our donate page, clicking from the left sidebar: Support -> Donate. (I'm not linking it here - too easy for someone to insert scam or phishing links in a wiki page.)

I've added a recurring donation option. The page now needs a couple of things, and I'd love suggestions:

  • A small number of engaging images from the wiki, illustrating a range of what we do - e.g. energy, water, building.
  • More engaging text, for a diversity of potential donors.

Thanks! --Chriswaterguy (talk) 14:56, 6 December 2015 (PST)

Hi Chris, some pics from CASwiki, which could be balanced by pics of other stuff e.g. energy, water, building, etc:
Philralph (talk) 09:31, 11 December 2015 (PST)
Thanks Phil.
Since I posted, I had the thought that I should use images that are public domain or that we have copyright for, so we can just have the images, without attribution links. Donation pages shouldn't have unneeded links, which are opportunities for the reader to get distracted before donating :-). Anyway, I'll look for public domain images - but we could use these images elsewhere. --Chriswaterguy (talk) 16:53, 12 December 2015 (PST)

CC-BY-SA logo links to GNU FDL license

Just thought I'd point out that the CC-BY-SA logo at the bottom right corner of each page links to the GNU FDL license instead of the CC license. --Hairless Wookie (talk) 01:00, 7 January 2016 (PST)

Woops – thanks!
Note for a tech admin: The guide to editing the footer is at mw:Manual:Footer. I guess we're still on CC Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported, but just FYI there is now CC Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International (but I haven't read up on the significance of the update). --Chriswaterguy (talk) 03:45, 7 January 2016 (PST)

Tool for converting formatted text to wiki markup

For those that aren't aware, we have a tool here which is useful if you have a document or web page that you are converting to a wiki page. (Of course, be sure that you have permission, and give attribution as appropriate).

The tool: Wikedbox. --Chriswaterguy (talk) 04:32, 8 January 2016 (PST)

A few things noticed since the update

I wanted to mention a few things this non-techie editor has noticed since the site was updated:

  • I often see what I think are the announcements at the bottom of the front page, misaligned and where they shouldn’t be. I can upload a screenshot if nobody else is seeing this.
  • The blog section on the front page appears to be blank.
  • I can’t access Special Pages at all. When I go to http://www.appropedia.org/Special:SpecialPages and click on any of these pages, the response I get is this: The following data is cached and may not be up to date. A maximum of 1,000 results are available in the cache. There are no results for this report.
  • As I add categories to uncategorised articles, the total article count seems to be going backwards. I am not sure why this is happening.

I thought I’d best pass these things on. Thanks for considering them. Felicity (talk) 02:02, 12 January 2016 (PST)

Whoa – thank you for noticing those changes, and letting us know. I'm not in charge of tech things, but we do have a developer doing a few things. Let's see what Lonny says. --Chriswaterguy (talk) 05:58, 12 January 2016 (PST)
Thanks Chris, happy that it's on the radar. Felicity (talk) 00:40, 13 January 2016 (PST)
Felicity's points 1&2 are the same bug. The blog section list doesn't conform to proper formatting. I'm guessing it's a conflict of the new CSS with JS. The weird thing is sometimes if you reload it *does* format correctly. --Ethan (talk) 21:27, 21 February 2016 (PST)
This falls under "feature, not a bug": since the update any page you edit will have the watch box checked (ticked) by default. Can we turn that off? --Ethan (talk) 19:43, 25 February 2016 (PST)

Appropedia in Google's definitions boxes! Conventional farming needs work

If you search for how to measure stream flow or conventional farming on Google, the definition box now comes from Appropedia. Confirmed in multiple countries. Great stuff... except that our conventional farming isn't as good as it could be.

(Thanks to Lonny for discovering this!) --Chriswaterguy (talk) 14:47, 31 January 2016 (PST)

Nice to learn this, thanks for the update. It's great to learn about increasing traction and responsiveness, keep up the great work everyone. :) Felicity (talk) 02:37, 2 February 2016 (PST)

permaculture content ready for "prime time"?

I was going to wait until I finished porting content from PermaWiki to do this, but there was a recent heated conversation about open-source permaculture. I was a little disappointed that our broadest permaculture pages didn't get mentioned, though some other sections of Appropedia were referenced. So I went ahead and added permaculture to the main page header, the sidebar and the main page selected portals (which may need to wait for a cronjob or cache refresh to appear?). I hope to raise the profile of Appropedia as permaculture wiki, because it is the only active one out there (also the Appropedia Foundation is a more trustworthy steward of this information than Wikia). If anyone objects, we can reverse these changes. --Ethan (talk) 21:38, 27 February 2016 (PST)

Thanks Ethan, looks good.
We have a number of great content areas, so I'm wondering how best dto display it all... might be something to ask a MediaWiki-friendly web designer. --Chriswaterguy (talk) 06:16, 12 March 2016 (PST)

Support needed to keep Appropedia alive and kicking goals

I've worked out how to let people make a recurring monthly donation to the Appropedia Foundation, to keep Appropedia growing and doing awesome things. If you're in a position to support us, please click "Donate" in the sidebar. Thanks! --Chriswaterguy (talk) 18:29, 16 March 2016 (PDT)

Are Appropedia Foundation accounts available somewhere? Would it be possible to have a direct link to them from the "Donate" page? Philralph (talk) 02:20, 18 March 2016 (PDT)
No, but I'd support making them available. Maybe we need to look at equivalent organisations (e.g. the Wikimedia Foundation) to help us with out whether there are particular things we need to keep confidential. I'm neither a lawyer nor an accountant.
I'll pass this suggestion on to the board. Thanks. --Chriswaterguy (talk) 04:34, 18 March 2016 (PDT)
Donation error PayPal has told me twice:

Sorry — your last action could not be completed Error Message

Your request failed due to technical difficulties.Please try again after some time.

Just so you know. Koavf (talk) 16:20, 3 July 2016 (PDT)

Following on from my earlier comments: could Appropedia make use of open collective? - "A group of people with a shared mission that operates in full transparency"? Might this sort of thing be useful even if used to meet some, not necessarily all, of Appropedia's objectives, at first? Philralph (talk) 10:49, 19 April 2017 (PDT)

for more see eg: Open Collectives: transforming our cities from the bottom-up, Apr 11: @OuiShare and BrusselsTogether, "lets you create a virtual association so that you can get started in no time and focus on what you want to do to improve Brussels" - though there may be better examples in the context of Appropedia, Philralph (talk) 11:10, 19 April 2017 (PDT)

New related wiki

Waterpedia See https://waterpedia.wiki/wpw/index.php/Waterpedia:About I figured this community and that one can work together. Koavf (talk) 16:15, 3 July 2016 (PDT)

Ekopedia down

See here I get a 404 message:

Page not found (404) Request Method: GET Request URL: http://ekopedia.org/

Using the URLconf defined in odc.urls, Django tried these URL patterns, in this order:

   ^admin/
   ^odc/(?P<url>.*)/$ [name='odc']
   ^_odc/(?P<url>.*)/$ [name='odc']
   ^__odc/(?P<url>.*)/$ [name='odc']
   ^bloquery_post/ [name='bloquery_post']
   ^fiches/$
   ^vol/(?P<ht>.+)/$ [name='vol']
   ^vol2/$ [name='vol2']
   ^show/(?P<mo>.+)/$ [name='show']
   ^show_all/(?P<mo>.+)/$ [name='show_all']
   ^templ/(?P<mo>.+)/$ [name='templ']
   ^mod/(w{0,50}) [name='mod']
   ^web_editor/attachment/add/$ [name='docs']
   ^web/dataset/call_kwx$ [name='docs']
   ^website/
   ^theme_enark/
   ^web/
   ^web_editor/
   ^builder/
   ^theme_common/
   ^docs_list/$ [name='docs_list']
   ^docs_upload/$ [name='doc_add_form']
   ^doc_erase/(?P<name>.*)/$ [name='doc_erase']
   ^static/website/translations/$ [name='noslash']
   ^(?P<url>.*)/$ [name='url']
   ^media\/(?P<path>.*)$

The current URL, , didn't match any of these.

You're seeing this error because you have DEBUG = True in your Django settings file. Change that to False, and Django will display a standard 404 page. Does anyone know what's up? The same thing happens at en.ekopedia. Koavf (talk) 20:42, 10 July 2016 (PDT)

The Ekopedia and Appropedia teams are working together on the problem, but could use more help from people experienced in database and wiki management. --Ethan (talk) 23:06, 21 July 2016 (PDT)

Spam and Captchas

Hello Intrepid Appropedians!

Thank you for your patience with our Captchas recently. We know that they had become too arduous and buggy. We have upgraded our captcha based spam abatement significantly. We hope your experience is also significantly enhanced! Please let us know if you have any problems editing, joining, posting, etc.

Thanks again, --Lonny (talk) 15:05, 21 September 2016 (PDT)

Great job! Very minimal spam is making it through now. --Ethan (talk) 22:48, 25 February 2017 (PST)

Saying Hi

Hi just introducing myself. I have some years experience on Wikipedia, here I'm interested in studying and working on many topics related to off grid + self sufficient homesteading. If anyone wants to collaborate on such topics let me know. Peace. Moribund (talk) 10:14, 17 February 2017 (PST)

Hi Moribund,
Great to meet you. Thanks for your contributions!
--Lonny (talk) 11:24, 17 February 2017 (PST)
Welcome Moribund. Please do share your knowledge and let us know if you've any questions. Your interests are perfect for here. Felicity (talk) 15:13, 17 February 2017 (PST)
Welcome! Good contributions so far. Nice to have someone who's experienced with natural construction. --Ethan (talk) 00:24, 20 February 2017 (PST)
Hi all and thanks for welcome. Unfortunately no practical experience of natural construction, but this should change soon =)
Let me know if anyone wants to collaborate on any topics. Moribund (talk) 14:53, 22 February 2017 (PST)

Appropriateness

One area on this wiki that could really use some development is appropriateness. I don't fault Appropedia for not elaborating it clearly, since this is a wider issue in the permaculture, alternative building and possibly also the appropriate tech communities. I'm sure we can all think of instances of people becoming enamored with a certain technique or technology without giving due consideration to how well it would fit into the specific contexts. What I propose we do:

  1. Further develop the general notion of appropriateness across all sustainability disciplines. The context article is a good start.
  2. Note the in/appropriateness of specific techs in various contexts, including possible modifications. Perhaps we should add a recurring section for context considerations to specific tech articles.

--Ethan (talk) 20:01, 25 February 2017 (PST) I should add that this information/ approach permeates Appropedia. What I'd like to do it bring it to the fore. --Ethan (talk) 20:10, 25 February 2017 (PST)

Thank you Ethan. I appreciate your points and vision. I think that it is a common problem, at least for me, to forget to bring to the forefront the water in which we swim. I am excited to see your efforts in this direction!
PS Some day, I would like to build some Human Centered Design content and make the connection between empathy and appropriateness.
Thanks again, --Lonny (talk) 22:05, 25 February 2017 (PST)

Fab labs

An intriguing new model of production. Anyone encountered one of these yet?

https://www.reddit.com/r/Permaculture/comments/6eb8hy/i_want_to_introduce_you_all_to_an_emerging_idea/ —The preceding comment was added by Ethan (talkcontribs) 04:57, 1 June 2017‎

Hi Ethan, I love fab labs and have contacts with a few engaged fab lab'ers over the past decade. Definitely cool. --Lonny (talk) 12:01, 16 June 2017 (PDT)

RAIN archive

A digital archive of back issues of RAIN magazine is now available here: http://pdxscholar.library.pdx.edu/rain_japt/ --Ethan (talk) 22:52, 13 June 2017 (PDT)

So cool! --Lonny (talk) 12:02, 16 June 2017 (PDT)

Quote and Cite templates

I think it would be useful to have these same templates:

How to transfer:

https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Templates#Copying_from_one_wiki_to_another

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Export

In testing it took a minute or two for wikipedia to prepare the Template:Quote. It's 22.8 mb with all the history.

Facilitator (talk) 14:45, 18 September 2017 (PDT)

Hi Facilitator, My apologies on the slow reply. Is this something you are still looking into? --Lonny (talk) 11:45, 1 November 2017 (PDT)

Database Dumps are Empty

Appropedia:Current_dump hosts currentdump.xml.gz. This file is supposed to be a complete dump of the text of Appropedia, which is useful for offline browsing. For weeks (and maybe longer), the file has been just 20 bytes - an empty archive file with no content. Can somebody look into fixing this?

We would love help on this. --Lonny (talk) 12:33, 13 March 2018 (PDT)

Vandalism: image uploaded revert fails, etc.

A new version of [[File:Thames sunset.jpg]] was uploaded yesterday. Revert failed. Deleting and re-uploading also failed to revert. This file currently used on 14 pages including (often on) Welcome to Appropedia/CAnews. Have blocked User:Xerou012. Advice appreciated on how best to get back to the intended image? Philralph (talk) 03:11, 1 November 2017 (PDT)

Thank you. Sorry for the issues. The issue is that it can take more than a few minutes for a newly updated image to propagate through the system. It should be good on all of the pages now... it is for me. If it is not for you, please try doing a hard refresh of your browser. Thanks again, --Lonny (talk) 11:41, 1 November 2017 (PDT)
Thanks, Lonny, Philralph (talk) 11:46, 1 November 2017 (PDT)
Thank you Philralph! --Lonny (talk) 22:25, 1 November 2017 (PDT)

offer of "help to ignite" / invite to collaboration to A People's Food Policy (UK)

Have emailed an offer of "help to ignite" / invite to collaboration to A People's Food Policy (UK) - copy of email on http://www.appropedia.org/Talk:Food_UK Philralph (talk) 09:23, 10 January 2018 (PST)

Excellent. Thanks. --Lonny (talk) 13:40, 10 January 2018 (PST)

Why are you non-profit?

Why are you non-profit, when you can be for-profit, and use said profit to solve the problems of the world? Like, document things by making youtube videos, to also get people to watch you helping people, maybe sell merchandise like any good youtube channel does, maybe even sell toy-versions of technologies useful for appropriation, maybe even some tiny e-book of only a few dozen pages, half or more being with only images (i.e. left page text and right page image to go with the text), maybe print some books to give to developing settlements, and make sure to include links or search terms for people who have internet access, and then you can go ahead and accept volunteers to help you out, eventually for the chance of being on youtube, being seen working. The whole point would be to be quite transparent in regards with what you're helping people with, and advertise your merchandise online with lines like "every 100 plushies helps us build one treadle pump well for a settlement, and you can watch us on youtube so you can see for yourself and show others that things can change for the better, if you invest in the right groups of people.

So let's do a recap:

  • Youtube videos of you doing actual work to help people, posted on your very own Youtube channel
  • merchandise related to you doing some of that work, eventually also some e-books (PDFs) and possibly even physical books (i.e. through Amazon), and even selling the very tools and tech you're helping people with, with a plain cheap version for those in need, and a fancy version for those who can afford and want to support the cause.
  • allow volunteers to help you out, in exchange for appearing in a video on Youtube, while they work.
  • be for-profit instead of non-profit, so you can use the profit to help change the world for the better, one problem at a time.
  • possibly also build a bikecar/velocar, which is a pedal powered 3-wheeler 4-wheeler (2 wheels in the front), and the frame can just be some painted textile (shell) resting on an skeleton (out of wood or metal, or even plastic). Preferably make it so it can change gears up to easily going 50 km/h (30 mph), or even faster (to be road-safe).

Here's a logo I've made for fun. If you want to use it, I can give you the source files.


Good luck!

- Sapioit

Non-profits can make a profit; it's just that this one doesn't. Koavf (talk) 20:45, 20 September 2018 (PDT)
I understand. My point is, by being for-profit, it can become competitive enough to actually change the world fast enough to make a difference in more than just a very few remote places.
- Sapioit
Thank you both. It is true that non-profits can sell products, advertising, etc. It is also true that for the most part, Appropedia does not do those things. We also agree that it is time to change that. The book To Catch the Rain is one of our first strong attempts at having a revenue stream to accelerate the impact of Appropedia. Indeed we need a lot of IT help (e.g. with spam abatement, updates, modernization, etc.) and server support (it costs hundreds of dollars a month to run servers that can keep up with our amount of traffic). Therefore, we need to bring in money just for those things... and then to thrive! Thanks again, --Lonny (talk) 16:10, 23 September 2018 (PDT)

Ideas to increase participation in Appropedia

Hi all, not logged on here in a while although I have periodically browsed articles without logging on or editting.

I am sad to see that this wiki is not that busy (at least as far as I can see). I propose a few suggestions about how to increase participation (disclaimer, I do not know if any of these measures are already in place)

  • It took me several mins to locate this page again, I feel since this page is the main forum for the whole site (?) it should be much more prominently signposted at the top of all of the major central pages (i.e. main page, "about" page, perhaps even a header on each individual talk page?
  • I see that permies.com is listed as a collaborator. How about starting a group on that site for appropedia editors to raise awareness.
  • In a similar vein, how about forming a group on wikipedia, indeed this is where many new editors could easily be attracted.

Anyway, I am very lazy these days but I want to collaborate a lot more. Pls msg me if anyone wishes to collaborate on writing articles. My areas of interest are broadly under the scope of "homesteading" ... natural building (particularly eathbag building, passive solar design, earth sheltering), sustainable + subsistence farming (e.g. forest gardening, small scale fruit and veg production), domestic scale + sustainable + off grid energy systems, aquaponics, etc.

Over the next few weeks I wish to deveolp material on earth tubes (ground coupled heat exchange).

Best wishes, Moribund (talk) 07:39, 1 January 2019 (PST)

Hi Moribund,
Thanks for the suggestions. We are always hoping to grow the community. These few weeks around Jan 1st are always the most slow. That said, we were averaging over 100 edits a day for the last few months (and now have 388,398 edits to date!). Currently our efforts are focused on updating Appropedia's infrastructure so that it runs faster for everyone around the world. It will probably take another two months to finish the updates and migration (especially given our limited financial resources). Until then, maybe you could try forming the group on wikipedia (I am not sure how that works)?
Thanks again, great to see you, --Lonny (talk) 00:31, 2 January 2019 (PST)
I see there are threads on Permies.com already related to this wiki. On wikipedia it might be harder to create a group since they have to be very strict about having all community activity directly related to editing the encyclopedia. However one approach might be to post on talk pages for wikiprojects that might be interested in appropedia. The message would have to be carefully phrased to be relevant to the encyclpedia. For example, some content on appropedia might be useful in wikipedia articles. I also know that they do not allow for "how to manual" type content, and so appropedia pages might therefore be good to link to from encyclopedia articles. Regards, Moribund (talk) 04:54, 4 January 2019 (PST)

Article about Earth tubes on Ekopedia

I've started the Earth tubes article on appropedia. I could not see it exactly covered when searching here, the nearest was Ground source heat pumps.

Anyway, I can see there is a lot of good info on the Ekopedia article about the same topic [3]

I've used the google translate feature to try and read the article with limited success.

It would be good to merge the content with the appropedia article.

I note that Ekopedia content is being merged with appropedia? Has translation already been done somewhere? Regards, Moribund (talk) 15:11, 5 January 2019 (PST)

Sounds great! Eventually we hope to merge completely...but that is not currently happening. --Lonny (talk) 10:51, 6 January 2019 (PST)

Reporting spam

Not sure of normal procedure you have on this wiki, but I suspect these accounts represent paid editor(s) who are posting spam links. Also I would take this moment to point out large volume of new user accounts each day, and only a tiny handful are used to edit. Suspect the new accounts are being started by a bot. Is there a way to make the process of starting an account more robust? Regards, Moribund (talk) 11:36, 21 January 2019 (PST)

Hi Moribund,
Thanks for pointing those out. We recently have made the process of starting an account more robust. It helped substantially, but there is still much more to do. Our next steps are upgrading the servers and implementing some other spam prevention tools, that hopefully will not increase the difficulty of creating an account and making edits for real users.
I deleted the offending pages. You can always edit a spam page and replace it with {{delete|spam}}. Or, if you are interested, we could provide you spam deletion privileges as an admin.
Thanks again, --Lonny (talk) 14:03, 21 January 2019 (PST)
If you feel that admins are needed then ok, I will need instruction on that though. Otherwise I will pages I see as directed above.
On the topic, this user (Special:Contributions/Andromeda) is pasting the same link on many user pages. Regards, Moribund (talk) 14:34, 24 January 2019 (PST)
Thank you. I have nominated you and I will follow up soon. I also posted a request to Andromeda. Thanks for pointing that out. --Lonny (talk) 18:39, 24 January 2019 (PST)
  • Another user page + user talk page that is being used for spam, would appreciate an admin taking a look [7] + [8]. Kind regards, Moribund (talk) 06:55, 17 February 2019 (PST)
I'm pleased with the recent tuning of the spam filters. The frequency of spam has dropped considerably. Of the 10 pages I just deleted 9 of them were user pages, so that's probably the area we should focus on next. Thanks for the vigilance Moribund. --Ethan (talk) 18:41, 22 February 2019 (PST)
I get the feeling since it is exactly the same pattern of spam each now that it is the same individual / bot doing it. Moribund (talk) 12:01, 23 February 2019 (PST)
Thank you Moribund for accepting the responsibilities of being an admin! --Lonny (talk) 19:45, 11 March 2019 (PDT)

Congrats, welcome to the team! --Ethan (talk) 02:08, 12 March 2019 (PDT)

OK Thanks, I'll do my best. Moribund (talk) 11:32, 12 March 2019 (PDT)

Registration

On a related note, the page Appropedia:About states "Registration is encouraged but not required for contributors." As far as I can see this needs to be updated, it is currently necessary to have an account and ot be logged in to edit pages? Moribund (talk) 10:03, 24 February 2019 (PST)

Thank you for pointing this out. It is now fixed. --Lonny (talk) 19:45, 11 March 2019 (PDT)

Should these 2 categories be merged together?

  • Category:Gardening
  • Category:Horitulcture and gardening

I note also that Category:Agriculture contains many articles which are specifically about cultivation of plants rather than production of other types of food.

Unless anyone has any objections I was thinking of merging the 2 categories above and moving some plant specific pages from agriculture to the subcategory of Horticulture and gardening. Kind regards, Moribund (talk) 10:37, 20 March 2019 (PDT)

No objections from me. Thanks! --Lonny (talk) 16:17, 20 March 2019 (PDT)

Autoblock triggering for unrelated IPs

I have seen several instances of this happening.

  1. [9] when I accidentally edited a spam page without being logged in. Lonny deleted the page, Ethan later blocked the user. I was then prevented from editing, and it was assumed that autoblock triggered because of this. However, I noticed that the block message stated that he intended blockee was 66.33.193.178 ... and this would definately not be any IP I would have used.
  2. (event copied from log)[10] "21:05, 22 March 2019 Lonny changed block settings for Provitazol Review tab (Talk | Contributions) with an expiry time of indefinite (account creation disabled, autoblock disabled) (Abusing multiple accounts - I changed the IP to not be blocked as somehow it was also my IP??"
  3. I think the same thing happened? [11]
  4. An Appropedia user messaged me saying they had autoblocked, related to this block: [12]. The user tells me that the block message they received tells them that the indended blockee is 66.33.193.178, user also mentions that this is not their IP.
  5. Another appropedia user messaged me saying they had been blocked when they tried to edit their user page. They did not give any details so I am waiting for more info.

Note that the IP from 2 of these cases is the same (New Dream Network, LLC). I am starting to suspect the intended blockee will be the same in the other cases as well? Sommething seems to be going wrong here. I am concerned that this will discourage legitimate users from contributing. I have provisionally disabled the autoblock on all recent blocks (the blocks I did anyway), as this does not seem to stop the continued creation of user accounts that will post spam anyway. If anyone knows anything about this, please post. Kind regards, Moribund (talk) 01:43, 23 March 2019 (PDT)

Another case of the same today, msg states intended blockee 66.33.193.178. Anyone shed some light on this? It seems the autoblock feature is nonfunctional. Moribund (talk) 13:19, 16 April 2019 (PDT)
I am messaging User:Chriswaterguy and Roger about this. It seems to have started happening right after we enabled a new type of caching. --Lonny (talk) 18:15, 21 April 2019 (PDT)
OK, thanks. Moribund (talk) 23:19, 21 April 2019 (PDT)
Yep... happened again to some students for IP 66.33.193.178 which was blocked for User:Traydugout59. Hopefully we will get to the bottom of this soon. I realize the timing corresponds with the new caching and moving to https (from http).--Lonny (talk) 00:24, 22 April 2019 (PDT)
Woohoo! Roger fixed it. For prosperity - it stemmed from not adding our server's own IP to $wgSquidServers. Should be good to go from now on out. --Lonny (talk) 15:14, 22 April 2019 (PDT)
OK, I'll try it again. thanks, Moribund (talk) 10:59, 23 April 2019 (PDT)

Is this spam?

Any opinions about whether these pages all created by the same user suitable for this wiki? They all appear to be products of the company listed first. I feel they probably should all be deleted. Moribund (talk) 10:59, 29 May 2019 (PDT)

One of those is a red link. Checking only Charcoal briquette production line‎, that doesn't seem to be spam but it is poorly written and unattested. Koavf (talk) 12:25, 29 May 2019 (PDT)
I agree that they are too spammy. I went ahead and deleted them and left a message in the summary and for Amy at User_talk:Amyyan. Thank you! --Lonny (talk) 14:24, 29 May 2019 (PDT)

Links to site: "Earthava"

Hi, just wanted to raise concerns about the actions of this user: Special:Contributions/Samalmaairgy

I have not checked every single one of their contributions, however the clear pattern seems to be entirely restricted to adding of links to the blog / website "Earthava" (recently rebranded from Survival Renewable Energy") [13]

Back in 2015 I can see Lonny requested that the user make more substantial contributions than merely posting links to the site. This appears to have gone unanswered (at least in public). The user name seems to be set up by the owner of the site (Assmaa Almaairgy 'Sam') and I feel it can be said that this user is editing this wiki 100% for self promotional reasons.

While the website contains a some info of use, the nature of some of the content seems a bit too commercially motivated, e.g.:

  • An app for users to enter their address and get a free estimate of how much money they could save by having PV system installed, likely later to be contacted by an installation company. Presumably there is a financial agreement between the owner of the site and the company giving the quote.
  • "Top 10 product reviews" format pages, of which there many examples some of which linked directly from this wiki, listing price comparisons and give links to amazon to purchase products. Presumably those are affiliate links which earn revenue for the site owner. (examples [14][15]) Indeed, it is unclear if there is any financial relationship between the product manufacturers and the site owner.

I feel the user is acting in bad faith and has showed no intention of changing their behaviour for many years, and that these links should all be removed since they add little to the wiki. Thoughts? Kind regards, Moribund (talk) 13:37, 17 June 2019 (CDT)

Hi Moribund,
I agree with your general assessment.
Eventually, we need to decide if we have a spot for links like this with a small sponsorship cost (that also pays for someone to make sure the linked information is appropriate)...but that is a different and much bigger conversation (one started at Appropedia:Supporters/FAQ).
On to Samalmaairgy's contributions. Sam seems well intentioned with a quite small social media presence. I think it is reasonable to reverse the majority of her edits. I think it is reasonable for her to promote her blog on her userpage (User:Samalmaairgy). I would love if she started adding value to Appropedia as her spirit and background seem to fit well. I will reach out to her on her instagram at instagram.com/assmaa.almaairgy/ to let her know. It is very possible that she never saw my comments on her talk page and is acting in what she thinks is good faith.
Thank you for catching this and for your thoughts. --Lonny (talk)

Hello There,

I am Sam, I am glad I came across this discussion by coincidence because no one has informed me directly about this issue. I can see the concern here regarding my actions here on Appropedia. I want to reply to the first concern about my actions and that fact that they are for promotional purposes. First of all the banner at the bottom of the articles is well-known and widely used among big websites. Treehugger.com uses this banner sitewide. and I believe that there are too many links that link back to Treehugger in Appropedia with no problem. Also, I think Appropedia has no problem to link to websites that are showing ads.

Second of all, Regarding the top 10 products articles, My first concern was to add value to Appropedia pages, I make sure that the page is relevant, so if the article talks about solar garden lights I search for a relevant page that talks about solar lighting or garden lights.

Third of all, not all of my contributions are about 10 top products. I added many relevant articles in these Appropedia pages:-

https://www.appropedia.org/Solar_energy_conversion_system https://www.appropedia.org/Energy_from_the_wind

The articles I mentioned there provide relevant information with no products showing. unless back to my first point Appropedia does not allow to link to websites that are showing ad banners.

According to what you mentioned, "that because of my 'small' social media presence I try to seek promotion in somewhere else like Appropedia." Though it seems offensive, I won't focus on it much because my first intention was to add value to Appropedia then comes my benefits. I think it is not fair to reverse all of my contributions. And, for the time being, I will stop any further contributions here on Appropedia, because I wished that there were instant notices to my contributions instead if just talking about it without me even knowing if I was doing something that goes against Appropedia Rules.

Thank you! --—The preceding comment was added by Samalmaairgy (talkcontribs) 13:40, 19 June 2019‎


Hello Sam,
Thank you so much for your response. First of all, my apologies for seeming offensive. I meant that your small social media presence was a positive sign that you were like much of the Appropedia community just trying to find ways to have impact, as opposed to a giant conglomerate bent on only making money. I do not mean that those are the only options, I only meant that you seemed like a real person based on the little that I could see. I understand how it reads offensively, I should have been more clear.
I did reach out to you a few years ago, via your userpage, and email (if you had one registered), at User_talk:Samalmaairgy. I am sorry that message did not get to you. We recently updated our email services so that they are less likely to end up in spam. I also just added you on Instagram so that I could alert you to our concerns...and so we could get to know each other a little more and seek synergistic ways to support our efforts. For example, you could definitely add links and information about your sites and project at User:Samalmaairgy.
You are correct that we do not have a good and clear policy on adding link backs. That said, we strongly encourage value added content to be added to Appropedia instead of just links to the URLs belonging to the poster. Our policy usually has us removing these types of added links. Does that make sense?
In conclusion, my apologies for any offense. I am glad to have you hear, and to meet you. I know you have been working on this type of stuff for a long time! Please let me know your thoughts.
Thank you, --Lonny (talk) 17:49, 19 June 2019 (CDT)


In response, whether the first concern is adding value to the wiki, or just a method of free self promotion (and possibly also some fanancial gain) is impossible to prove either way. The real question is whether these edits have added anything of value to the wiki. I think since they add zero actual content and are just external links to a site of limited use to readers of this wiki, they merely act to divert traffic away from the wiki... viewers that might otherwise have contributed to the wiki. No such links are provided back to Appropedia from the blog. I agree that to add actual content to the wiki at the same time as linking would be preferable, and a link to the blog from a user page is fine, however if editing is restricted to adding such links with no content, this is questionable. The reason I did not delete all links is because the blog / website linked cannot be said to be purely commercial and is providing some information to the public without any paywall on some pages. Despite the obvious self promotion, I am unsure if those links should be removed. Other pages of product reviews and links to amazon cannot be said to be as useful to readers and should definately be deleted in my opinion. I see that the app to get a quote for solar PV savings seems to have gone (?). Therefore I will let others decide the best course of action here, kind regards, Moribund (talk) 15:54, 20 June 2019 (CDT)

Hello there,

Sam here,

In response to Lonny, Thank you so much for your positive response, I have followed you back on Instagram. I saw your message in my talk page just today, I wish I have read it back then to understand the Appropedia policies better. Thank you for your help and for your supporting words.

In response to Moribund, I believe I have already replied to your concern about my contributions in my first response. and regarding the ad at the bottom of the posts. Pardon me, it is silly to think that it was removed due to this discussion. It just happened to be good timing that is all. The ad was removed due to issues in the code, It is a temporary removal and it will be added again once the problem is solved.

There is something that worth mentioning, I get zero traffic and zero profit from Appropedia, there might be literally 1 or 2 visitors a month from Appropedia to my website. Nothing much that made you so bothered about my 'financial gain' because of my links in Appropedia. So again I am not benefiting from this in one way or another. And to not bother you again, I made it clear that my contributions whether in the form of providing raw information or adding external links to Appropedia pages will be stopped. and I will keep my contributions in my user page only according to Lonny's advice.

Thank you all!

I only see external links no other content. As I stated earlier, intentions are essentially irrelevant, the issues is whether the links are of value to the wiki, and if not then they should be removed imo. Moribund (talk) 02:25, 22 June 2019 (CDT)
As no-one else has expressed any new opinions on this, I'll remove any links that are too commercial. I feel a good rule of thumb for this is ELs to pages dedicated to product reviews and amazon links should be removed, whereas pages of general informative content might stay. I'll start work on this in a few days unless anyone else posts. Moribund (talk) 11:43, 7 July 2019 (CDT)

Climate change as an area in the lh menu?

With the rapid recent rise of Extinction Rebellion worldwide, I'm wondering if it might be a smart move to list Climate change (or similar) as an area in the left hand column menu. This might attract more editors to Appropedia? We could start with the Category:Climate change which has a similar number of articles to some other areas. Then if enough support collaborate to develop a portal? What do you think? Philralph (talk) 14:13, 19 October 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Just seeing this now. I think it is a brilliant idea. Clearly most of our work ties directly to, and is driven by, climate change...making that more clear seems like a good call. --Lonny (talk) 20:51, 7 November 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Great, done the first bit, will get round to working on drafting a Portal soon, but of course anyone can start on this if you like. Philralph (talk) 09:25, 8 November 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Untitled

THius is hard to edit we dont know what to do —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cabskie

How can I help? Koavf (talk) 02:57, 9 December 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Appropedia's rules and bugs

Hello there! I am considering using Appropedia for posting information, references and links on climate change and related activism. I would be interested to have some more information on Appropedia's rules, which I cannot easily find on the About pages.

Wikipedia's rules on neutrality and notability would prevent posting some useful information there, and this is why Appropedia may be a useful complement. However, I wonder what replaces these two rules on Appropedia? My impression is that Appropedia is not yet developed enough for having formal rules, is that correct?

Moreover I have a technical question. Appropedia was "database locked" for a few days recently, with little information on when that situation started and how long it lasted. Over the last few years, how often did such situations occur? Which percentage of the time is Appropedia fully functional? Shapoklyak (talk) 08:46, 2 January 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hi Shapoklyak, hopefully others might answer your questions more directly, but just wanted to say that "information, references and links on climate change and related activism" sounds good to me. As you can see from our Category:Climate change we have so far 80 pages or more on climate change topics, and content related to activism within the Category:Climate action. Browsing these may help give a feel of what we have here so far. Hope that is of some help, and please ask again if I can help further, Philralph (talk) 16:52, 2 January 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Some other links more directly related to your questions: Help:Contributing content, Appropedia:Policies - includes notes on 'Neutral Point of View' - more at Appropedia:Neutral point of view, Appropedia:Pillars and values, & more via Category:Appropedia guidelines, Philralph (talk) 17:09, 2 January 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks a lot Philralph! I had failed to find this information, this is exactly what I was looking for. Shapoklyak (talk) 13:37, 3 January 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I might be able to explain. Our server seemed to be compromised for a few days, but it was solved by Roger who was coincidentally working on the upgrade of Appropedia. We expect the site to be fully functional now, but please let us know if you find anything unusual. --Emilio (talk) 18:20, 2 January 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thank you for this explanation of the recent bug. Still I would like to know how frequently such technical problems occur. Is there a log of technical issues and notifications? Shapoklyak (talk) 13:41, 3 January 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Hi Shapoklyak,
In the last 10 years, we have had less than 10 days of locked databases. This happens due to a DDOS, hacking, or massive spam attack. We are quite proud of our uptime over the last 13 years. Does that answer your question? Thanks! --Lonny (talk) 22:35, 4 January 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yes it does! Thanks. Shapoklyak (talk) 12:54, 5 January 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

A recent revert

I'm copying the following post from User talk:Auri, in case User:Auri, formerly 'Dove' (?) wishes to make a case in support of his/her edits Philralph (talk) 13:13, 18 January 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

"Hi User:Auri, thanks for your message regarding your edits to Inspiring quotes 2. I see you also similarly edited Wendell Berry. I have reverted these edits and will explain why: whilst some of the edits may have been helpful, the majority seemed to be destructive. This is because the original format of a quote is important in conveying what the author intended. For example a coma, which some might find unnecessary may have been deliberately included to signify a pause during a speech. Best not to over concentrate on pernickety detail, as this might seem a distraction, but to instead concentrate on positive and substantive edits. I see you created pages for Greta Thunberg and Naomi Klein. I also see that you have contributed before using the username 'Dove' (?) I'm copying this post to Appropedia:Village Pump in case you wish to make a case in support of your edits."

Thanks. --Lonny (talk) 01:31, 19 January 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Suggested for deletion

I am suggesting to delete Global Village Construction Kit. This page is a little less obvious if it should be deleted for developed. I would also love to hear from any people involved with the Global Village Construction Set. Thank, --Lonny (talk) 01:40, 19 January 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

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